FIVE DAILY SALAWAT IN ISLAM AND ZOROASTRIANISM
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Peace Munzir Ali,
If you are ready to discuss matters in a dignified manner, then I shall respond to you. But if you behave like a child and just ridicule my views and understanding out of your sheer arrogance and gross ignorance like you and Afridi did in the past on this thread, I shall just ignore you in a noble way. I think dignity is a must in human behaviour.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
I would love to discuss matters in a dignified manner with you..Please tell me why it is imcomplete! If you can't say the reason and state no quranic evidences i'm afraid you are the one who is ignorant ;D
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Peace Bigmo,
Kindly read my posts in the below given links which I hope answer your questions/points
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7523/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7509/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7600/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7541/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7528/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7497/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7500/0/Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Munzir Ali,
I would love to discuss matters in a dignified manner with you..Please tell me why it is imcomplete! If you can't say the reason and state no quranic evidences i'm afraid you are the one who is ignorant ;D
I would like you to read my post on the subject discussed in the links below, before we start our discussion
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Vivek
Your contention that the quran is incomplete based on a lack of details for certain concepts in quran such as salat & zakaat is without merit. Details are found on these issues upon a careful study of the concepts in quran. Through the use of tasreef (as opposed to tafseer), one finds all the detail one needs for understanding these concepts.
Imraan
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Peace Imraan,
Peace Vivek
Your contention that the quran is incomplete based on a lack of details for certain concepts in quran such as salat & zakaat is without merit. Details are found on these issues upon a careful study of the concepts in quran. Through the use of tasreef (as opposed to tafseer), one finds all the detail one needs for understanding these concepts.
Imraan
My contention is based on logic and reason and without any biased notion. But your(the so-called muslims) contention is entirely based on pre-conceived notion and blind belief that the Quran has been preserved in toto even though the present Quran is incomplete in many respects Your contention grossly denies logic and reason.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Imraan,
My contention is based on logic and reason and without any biased notion. But your(the so-called muslims) contention is entirely based on pre-conceived notion and blind belief that the Quran has been preserved in toto even though the present Quran is incomplete in many respects Your contention grossly denies logic and reason.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
What difference does it make whether the Quran is complete or incomplete? What we have is what we have. Why bother about some Quran that does not exist? I worry about what scriptures we have and not what we could have. Plus the reasoning behind your belief that the Quran is incomplete is built entirely on assumptions and wild speculations. You alreay are speculating as to what information should have been contained in the Quran in the first place. You are also speculating that that information was contained and now you are assuming that the Quran we have is incomplete. The reasoning is vague and narrow and built on too many specualtions. Where does it give in the Quran any indication that information is missing? And why should we be told how much zakat to pay and exactly how to pray or even how to perform haj? Is it something that can not be done without us being told exactly how it should be performed? Is there a proper way for them to be performed?
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What difference does it make whether the Quran is complete or incomplete? What we have is what we have. Why bother about some Quran that does not exist? I worry about what scriptures we have and not what we could have. Plus the reasoning behind your belief that the Quran is incomplete is built entirely on assumptions and wild speculations. You alreay are speculating as to what information should have been contained in the Quran in the first place. You are also speculating that that information was contained and now you are assuming that the Quran we have is incomplete. The reasoning is vague and narrow and built on too many specualtions. Where does it give in the Quran any indication that information is missing? And why should we be told how much zakat to pay and exactly how to pray or even how to perform haj? Is it something that can not be done without us being told exactly how it should be performed? Is there a proper way for them to be performed?
Peace Bigmo,
It is not my wishful thinking or wild imagination or unnecessary conjecture but it is a simple logic and reason. We should use our faculties of thinking and logical reasoning whereever necessary.
When God gives commands to perform certain duties in a scripture but the details whereof are unavailable, my logic says that the details on how to perform the duties must have been given clearly by God at the time of giving the commands itself because otherwise God is not a just god but only plays a cruel game with innocent humans(God forbid) but the same details had been lost or discarded purposefully.
Only those people who are hypocritically and stubbornly claim that the present Quran is complete and contains all the requiste details, are making unreasonable conjectures. I don't see any difference between such Quranists and traditional muslims, traditional Hindus, traditional Jews, traditional Zoroastrians, the so-called christians....
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace Bigmo,
It is not my wishful thinking or wild imagination or unnecessary conjecture but it is a simple logic and reason. We should use our faculties of thinking and logical reasoning whereever necessary.
When God gives commands to perform certain duties in a scripture but the details whereof are unavailable, my logic says that the details on how to perform the duties must have been given clearly by God at the time of giving the commands itself because otherwise God is not a just god but only plays a cruel game with innocent humans(God forbid) but the same details had been lost or discarded purposefully.
Only those people who are hypocritically and stubbornly claim that the present Quran is complete and contains all the requiste details, are making unreasonable conjectures. I don't see any difference between such Quranists and traditional muslims, traditional Hindus, traditional Jews, traditional Zoroastrians, the so-called christians....
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace Vivek
Firstly I would like to see some proof that the Quran is not complete. Secondly this is what I believe; (I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but merely trying to say I am not convinced with your argument so apologies in advance if I can?t see something you can see clearly); the Quran says it is fully detailed6114 ?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to
you this Book fully detailed?? Those to whom We have given the
Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do
not be of those who have doubt.
I believe that the Quran is written in a way that it has a spiritual key to decode it. By this I mean the truth from the book will be revealed to who ever God wills and guides. This could be seen clearly by the following verses
20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be
hasty with the Recitation before its inspiration is completed to
you, and say ?My Lord, increase my knowledge.?
As we can see from 20114, we should pray to God to increase our knowledge and be patient. Furthermore
4144 And had We made it a non-Arabic recitation, they would have
said ?If only its revelations were made clear!? Non-Arabic and
Arabic, say ?For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As
for those who disbelieve, there is deafness in their ears, and they
are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away.?
As you can see from this verse, people must have asked since the early days of Islam that things were not clear to them from the book. However, the verse explains that for the believer it is a guide and healing.
In the following verses God explains that the Quran is a light and a clarifying book, also God guides whoever follows His acceptance.
515 O people of the Book, Our messenger has come to you to clarify for
you much of what you were hiding from the Book, and to pardon
over much. A light has come to you from God and a clarifying
Book.
516 God guides with it whoever follows His acceptance, to the ways of
peace; and it brings them out of the darkness and into the light
with His permission; and it guides them to a straight path.
Also below is another verse which backs up the above.
1689 And the Day We send to every nation a witness against them from
themselves, and We have brought you as a witness against these.
And We have sent down to you the Book as a clarification for all
things, and a guide and mercy and good tidings to those who have
submitted.
We must thus conclude that the Book will not be clear to us all unless God wills. All we can do is pray that God will guide us, increase our knowledge, help us to have pure hearts and be righteous in this life. This is explained clearly in the following verses
5676 This is an oath, if only you knew, that is great.
5677 It is an honorable Recitation.
5678 In a protected book.
5679 None can grasp it except those purified.
The above clearly states that it is a protected book and none can grasp it except those purified. God has made an oath to protect the Quran and as a believer of God and the last day, I accept that the Quran is protected and if it was corrupted in such a way that the message was made unclear to whom God wanted to guide then God would have corrected it.
So, vivek I accept that you have reservations of how complete the messages are in the Quran (or how much of it has been omitted over the years) and I am sure you are not alone in that. But the key is patients and belief that God will guide us. Unfortunately, besides the verses above I have no evidence to show you that the Quran is complete and unchanged from the day it was revealed. However, the same is true of you providing proof that it is changed, so the debate will ponder on I feel.My God guide us in the right path.
Peace
Hope -
Peace Bigmo,
We should use our faculties of thinking and logical reasoning whereever necessary.
my logic says that the details on how to perform the duties must have been given clearly by God at the time of giving the commands itself
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
YOUR faculties of thinking and YOUR logical resoning and not the Quran's. You have not even answered my question. Does the Quran say there is a way to pray? Does it say that God only recognizes a certain form of prayer? Did it even gives us any information where God did not accept a form of prayer because of the way it was performed and that it did not fulfill the proper form of a prayer?
Then where did you get that assumption from because its that assumption that your argument is all based on?
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Peace vivek
Peace Imraan,
My contention is based on logic and reason and without any biased notion. But your(the so-called muslims) contention is entirely based on pre-conceived notion and blind belief that the Quran has been preserved in toto even though the present Quran is incomplete in many respects Your contention grossly denies logic and reason.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Please explain why your view is based on logic & reason. The mere statement by yourself is not sufficient proof. Please state the research & investigation you have done to come to your conclusions. Don't assume that my contention is illogical even though you have not asked me to provide the details you claim are missing in the quran. How do you know that my contention is illogical when you haven't even tested it?
Imraan
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Peace hope4,
Peace Vivek
Firstly I would like to see some proof that the Quran is not complete. Secondly this is what I believe; (I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, but merely trying to say I am not convinced with your argument so apologies in advance if I can?t see something you can see clearly);I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/the Quran says it is fully detailed
6114 ?Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to
you this Book fully detailed?? Those to whom We have given the
Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do
not be of those who have doubt.What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
I believe that the Quran is written in a way that it has a spiritual key to decode it. By this I mean the truth from the book will be revealed to who ever God wills and guides. This could be seen clearly by the following verses
20114 Then High above all is God, the King, the True. And do not be
hasty with the Recitation before its inspiration is completed to
you, and say ?My Lord, increase my knowledge.?
As we can see from 20114, we should pray to God to increase our knowledge and be patient.Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
159 We, indeed We, it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it is We who will preserve it.
6114 Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice]; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Do you think God cannot protect his book? Do you think God does not/cannot keep his promises? Do you think God is lying?
72 A book that has been sent down to you, so let there not be any burden in your chest from it, that you may warn with it; and a reminder to those who acknowledge.
73 Follow what was sent down to you all from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any masters. Little do you remember!
111 ALR. A book whose signs have been ascertained, then detailed, from One who is Wise, Ever-aware.
What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
618 They wish to put out God's light with their mouths. But God will continue with His light, even if the ingrates dislike it.
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace Vivek
Thank you for your reply. I will when time permits, go through the links you gave. However, I agree with progressive1993
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it
is We who will preserve it.As a result I must trust in God who says He will preserve it
2558 And put your trust in the Eternal Who does not die, and glorify
His praise. It is enough for Him that He is expert in the sins of His
servants.26217 And put your trust in the Noble, the Merciful.
If, and I really doubt it, any significant changes were made over the years God would have put that right to whom He pleases.Peace
Hope
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
But for many the level of detail is explained in the Quran. What you are talking about is a specific level of detail without showing why that level of detail must be there. I am asking is where is that assumption from? The Quran tells us many things but it does not see the need to explain everything in detail. Should there not be certain things we can deduce by ourselves?
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Peace Vivek
Thank you for your reply. I will when time permits, go through the links you gave. However, I agree with progressive1993
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it
is We who will preserve it.As a result I must trust in God who says He will preserve it
2558 And put your trust in the Eternal Who does not die, and glorify
His praise. It is enough for Him that He is expert in the sins of His
servants.26217 And put your trust in the Noble, the Merciful.
If, and I really doubt it, any significant changes were made over the years God would have put that right to whom He pleases.Peace
Hope
Peace Hope4,
Now answer my 10 questions
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Do you think God can protect only the Quran but not other scriptures?
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If yes, do you believe that God has only limited power?
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If no, why God didn't protect all other scriptures of his?
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Do you think that God preferred the followers of Muhammad to the followers of all other prophets? Is preservation of the scripture the preregotive of Muslim community?
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If yes, why? Does God practice discrimination?
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If no, what is the reason for protecting the Quran alone?
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Do you believe that God gave uncondional guarantee for 100% preservation of the Quran?
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If yes, why did God warn Muhammad about the loss of the Quran?
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Again if yes, why did God prophesy in the Quran that God's wrath would be upon those who would alter the Quran?
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If no, then why you people carry out the false propagate that God promised the preservation of the Quran?
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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God promised to protect the Quran. That is what we know. We also know as per the Quran the other scriptures were altered so no, God let those scriptures be altered (imo this is part of Satan's promise to alter God's creation). Not because he liked it but because it was Satan's work and God lets those who are astray go astray. This is also a verse in the Quran.
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God promised to protect the Quran. That is what we know. We also know as per the Quran the other scriptures were altered so no, God let those scriptures be altered (imo this is part of Satan's promise to alter God's creation). Not because he liked it but because it was Satan's work and God lets those who are astray go astray. This is also a verse in the Quran.
Peace Meteora,
I want you to give direct answer to each of my 10 questions.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Now answer my 10 questions
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Do you think God can protect only the Quran but not other scriptures?
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If yes, do you believe that God has only limited power?
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If no, why God didn't protect all other scriptures of his?
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Do you think that God preferred the followers of Muhammad to the followers of all other prophets? Is preservation of the scripture the preregotive of Muslim community?
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If yes, why? Does God practice discrimination?
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If no, what is the reason for protecting the Quran alone?
-
Do you believe that God gave uncondional guarantee for 100% preservation of the Quran?
-
If yes, why did God warn Muhammad about the loss of the Quran?
-
Again if yes, why did God prophesy in the Quran that God's wrath would be upon those who would alter the Quran?
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If no, then why you people carry out the false propagate that God promised the preservation of the Quran?
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Did God promise to protect other scriptures?
Why not just follow God's final, complete, perfect and fully detailed book - the Quran?
Where does it say that the Quran is going to be lost? Do you mean 2530, because that one talks about people like you who believe that the Quran is incomplete and go and find other sources beside the Quran.
Are you a Muslim or a Hindu? If you are a Hindu, then it is great that you are interested in the Quran, but dont tell me that it is incomplete.
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