FIVE DAILY SALAWAT IN ISLAM AND ZOROASTRIANISM
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Peace Vivek
Thank you for your reply. I will when time permits, go through the links you gave. However, I agree with progressive1993
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it
is We who will preserve it.As a result I must trust in God who says He will preserve it
2558 And put your trust in the Eternal Who does not die, and glorify
His praise. It is enough for Him that He is expert in the sins of His
servants.26217 And put your trust in the Noble, the Merciful.
If, and I really doubt it, any significant changes were made over the years God would have put that right to whom He pleases.Peace
Hope
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Peace hope4,
I would like you to read my posts on the subject in the links below
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7554/0/
http//19.org/forum/index.php/t/7580/0/What is said as the Quran being fully detailed is true and applies in the context of the original Quran but not the present altered Quran that is incomplete in many aspects due to loss of many portions.
Yes, you are right. I also want to add that there are two types of meanings i.e 1. literal meaning (majority of verses) that can be understood even by a lay man and 2. allegorical meaning(verses in small numbers) that require deep understanding and special ability to understand and some of such type of verses cannot be understood by any human in its true sense.
It is very important to note that all verses that contain laws of God including for Salat, Zakat,etc fall under the first type of verses ie verses having literal meaning and not allegorical meaning. So we cal logically conclude that if details are not available on how to perform duties that were made obligatory, then the verses containing such details were lost.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
But for many the level of detail is explained in the Quran. What you are talking about is a specific level of detail without showing why that level of detail must be there. I am asking is where is that assumption from? The Quran tells us many things but it does not see the need to explain everything in detail. Should there not be certain things we can deduce by ourselves?
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Peace Vivek
Thank you for your reply. I will when time permits, go through the links you gave. However, I agree with progressive1993
159 Indeed it is We who have sent down the Reminder, and indeed it
is We who will preserve it.As a result I must trust in God who says He will preserve it
2558 And put your trust in the Eternal Who does not die, and glorify
His praise. It is enough for Him that He is expert in the sins of His
servants.26217 And put your trust in the Noble, the Merciful.
If, and I really doubt it, any significant changes were made over the years God would have put that right to whom He pleases.Peace
Hope
Peace Hope4,
Now answer my 10 questions
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Do you think God can protect only the Quran but not other scriptures?
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If yes, do you believe that God has only limited power?
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If no, why God didn't protect all other scriptures of his?
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Do you think that God preferred the followers of Muhammad to the followers of all other prophets? Is preservation of the scripture the preregotive of Muslim community?
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If yes, why? Does God practice discrimination?
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If no, what is the reason for protecting the Quran alone?
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Do you believe that God gave uncondional guarantee for 100% preservation of the Quran?
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If yes, why did God warn Muhammad about the loss of the Quran?
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Again if yes, why did God prophesy in the Quran that God's wrath would be upon those who would alter the Quran?
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If no, then why you people carry out the false propagate that God promised the preservation of the Quran?
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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God promised to protect the Quran. That is what we know. We also know as per the Quran the other scriptures were altered so no, God let those scriptures be altered (imo this is part of Satan's promise to alter God's creation). Not because he liked it but because it was Satan's work and God lets those who are astray go astray. This is also a verse in the Quran.
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God promised to protect the Quran. That is what we know. We also know as per the Quran the other scriptures were altered so no, God let those scriptures be altered (imo this is part of Satan's promise to alter God's creation). Not because he liked it but because it was Satan's work and God lets those who are astray go astray. This is also a verse in the Quran.
Peace Meteora,
I want you to give direct answer to each of my 10 questions.
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
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Now answer my 10 questions
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Do you think God can protect only the Quran but not other scriptures?
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If yes, do you believe that God has only limited power?
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If no, why God didn't protect all other scriptures of his?
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Do you think that God preferred the followers of Muhammad to the followers of all other prophets? Is preservation of the scripture the preregotive of Muslim community?
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If yes, why? Does God practice discrimination?
-
If no, what is the reason for protecting the Quran alone?
-
Do you believe that God gave uncondional guarantee for 100% preservation of the Quran?
-
If yes, why did God warn Muhammad about the loss of the Quran?
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Again if yes, why did God prophesy in the Quran that God's wrath would be upon those who would alter the Quran?
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If no, then why you people carry out the false propagate that God promised the preservation of the Quran?
Yours truly,
K.Vivekanandan
Did God promise to protect other scriptures?
Why not just follow God's final, complete, perfect and fully detailed book - the Quran?
Where does it say that the Quran is going to be lost? Do you mean 2530, because that one talks about people like you who believe that the Quran is incomplete and go and find other sources beside the Quran.
Are you a Muslim or a Hindu? If you are a Hindu, then it is great that you are interested in the Quran, but dont tell me that it is incomplete.
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181 Praise be to God who sent down the book to His servant, and did not allow any flaw in it.
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That a specified worship five times a day is a God?s commandment given in all revealed religions is confirmed by the fact that a revealed religion known as Mazdayasni religion or commonly called Zoroastrianism which is the ancient religion of Iran enjoins a specified worship five times a day whose timing is based on the movement of Sun as in the case of Islam.
Zoroastrians call this specified worship ?Gah worship/prayer?. The term ?Gah? means ?period of time? or ?place?. So Gah worship means ?timed worship?. It is apparently a name given in latter days to Yasna which has to be performed five times daily in its respective times. In reality, Gah worship is nothing but Yasna in Avestan language which means Fire Oblation or Worship through fire/Fire based worship or Sacrifice. Its Sanskrit equivalent is Yajna as practiced in other revealed religion ?Hinduism?. This worship is called ?Incense Burning? or ?Burnt Offering? in Hebrew scriptures when it is named Salat in the Quran.
The striking similarity between Islam and Zoroastrianism in the timing of five daily worship is given below
Time/Islam/Zoroasrianism
Dawn/Fajr/Havaan
Noon/Zuhar/Rapithwan
Afternoon/Asr/Uziren
Evening/Maghrib/Aiwisuthrem
Night/Isha/UshaenCall for Five daily worship
Just like the believers are called for Salat in a Masjid by a Muezzin(caller) in Islam five times a day, the Zoroastrian believers are summoned by the ringing of a bell in the Atash Behram / Agiary / Fire Temple to perform Yasna(Gah worship) five times a day.
Ablution
Muslims are required to do ritual purification like washing face and limbs before commencing Salat. Likewise, Zoroastrians are required to do wash their face and limbs before commencing Yasna(Gah worship).
Head Cover
In the same way as Muslims cover their heads traditionally when performing Salat, Zoroastrians are required to cover their heads when performing Yasna(Gah worship).
Facing the Direction
The direction at which Muslims are to perform Salat is called the Qiblah in the Quran. In the Atashbehram/Agiary the room where the Atash Padshah(Sacred Fire) is enthroned is called the Keblaah in Zoroastrianism.
Reading/Reciting portions from Scripture
As Muslims are required to read/recite portions from the Quran in the original language of its revelation ie Arabic while performing Salat, Zoroastrians are required to read/recite portions from the Avesta(Gathas) in the original language of its revelation ie Avesta when performing Yasna(Gah worship).
Sacred Fire and Incense
The method of performing Yasna(Gah worship) done by Zoroastrians is as follows
1.Stand before the sacred fire enthroned on the fire altar in an Agiary /Fire Temple or sit or stand before the sacred fire ignited at the home fire altar;
- Read/recite portions from the scripture;
3.Burn the powdered herbals/incense on the sacred fire ie oblation into sacred fire.
It is where the so-called Muslims shunned the true Salat by substituting the sacred fire and offering incense as oblation into sacred fire with the acts of bowing and prostrating. This is how the sectarian Muslims lost the core part of Salat ie oblation into sacred fire and retained Salat only in the name.
Oh Vivek? Screw the sacred fire.
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What I'm trying to say is, being deeply in love with the materials rather than comprehending the message, one might as well throw themselves into the fire, or be thrown into it, since they love it so much, they should make love to it too.
Zoroastrianism went the path which hardens, when the meaning of the symbolism is perhaps lost, and it becomes about feeding a fire.
If someone ignorant responds "screw Allah!" they should know, I am not sexually attracted to Allah in the least bit, nor is there anything at all to be attracted to!
Those who love the fire should bathe in it thoroughly. Truly, bathing in fire is transformative! You'll come out looking like a new man!
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Salam Brother
is GOD a cow ?
this question is stupid right ? because GOD IS NOT A COW , but some people believe that GOD IS A COW ! so , do you have to believe that God is a cow because some people do ?
you explained the similarities between Zoroastrianism and TRADITIONAL ISLAM according to YOUR PERSPECTIVE which you have DECIDED IT EARLIER !
this is a simple question , I want to ask you
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED
6114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
GOD DOES NOT ERR OR FORGET
2052 He said The knowledge of it is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.
GOD DOES NOT RUN OUT OF WORDS
3127 And if all the trees on the earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Noble, Wise.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THESE VERSES ?
if your answer was yes , please tell me , why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?
1- Quran is not fully detailed , and the other 2 ritual prayers can be found in Hadith >>> FALSE ! 6114 tells that Quran is FULLY DETAILED
2- GOD errs and forgets , so he forgot to mention the other 2 ritual prayers >>> FALSE ! 2052 tells that GOD DOES NOT ERR OR FORGET
3- GOD runs out of words , He was tired and couldn't mention the other 2 ritual prayers >>> FALSE ! 3127 tells that GOD DOES NOT RUN OUT OF WORDS
and we know that GOD IS NOT A LIAR , HE DOES NOT ERR , FORGET or RUN OUT OF WORDS , PLEASE ! THINK CAREFULLY
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue together
may ALLAH forgive us All and guide us
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Peace Kikotsu.
You said
why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?You also said
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue togetherI disagree with you. Where did you get that GOD did mention only 3 from?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Kikotsu.
You said
why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?You also said
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue togetherI disagree with you. Where did you get that GOD did mention only 3 from?
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Brother and thank you for this nice question )
there are only 3 named ritual prayers in THE HOLY QURAN and they are
1- Dawn Prayer (Salat Al-Fajr) Mentioned in 2458
2- Night Prayer (Salat Al-Isha) Mentioned in 2485
3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
Peace )
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3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
If you can even translate "wusta" as middle... that is not very likely.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace everyone,
According to Hadith
When Mohammed met God in the seventh heaven through Miraj (an ascension to the heavens), God expected muslims to pray 50 times a day. But fortunately, Moses who was in the sixth heaven, advised Muhammad to reduce the number of prayers. By commuting from the seventh Heaven where God was located, to the sixth heaven where Moses was located, Muhammed was able to reduce the number of prayers even more.
My view
The story of Muhammad's journey/ascension to the sixth and seventh heaven seems to have no basis in the Quran. But this story can be found in Hadith (See Sahih Al-Bukhari 5.227). Since no verse in the Quran states that one must pray 5 times a day, it seems that the notion of 5 daily prayers has its origins in Hadith. The Quran mentions that Muhammad was on a journey, but the details of this journey is different from the details of the Miraj (ascension to the heavens) mentioned in Hadith. So the journey that Muhammad was on, seems to be a different type of journey, according to the Quran. As far as I know, no verse in the Quran states that Muhammad traveled to the sixth heaven to meet Moses and to the seventh heaven to meet God. Besides, the Quran seems to suggest that the only Miracle that was given to Muhammad was the Quran. In other words, it appears that Muhammad could not perform any miracles. If Muhammad could not perform any miracles, was he able to ascend to the sixth and seventh heaven? If my ask me, that sounds unlikely. In verse 1790, the quran seems to suggest that Muhammad's people would not believe in the message of God unless the messenger performed miracles.
Quran 1790-93 And they said "We will not believe unto you until you cause a spring of water to burst out of the ground." "Or that you have an estate of palm trees and grapes, and you cause gushing rivers to burst through it." "Or that you make the heaven fall upon us in pieces as you claimed, or that you bring God and the angels before us." "Or that you have a luxurious mansion, or that you can ascend into the heavens. We will not acknowledge your ascension unless you bring for us a book that we can study." Say, "Glory be to my Lord. Am I anything other than a human messenger!"
Also, some Muslim thinkers who have studied the Quran deeply, claim that Muhammad's journey was a spiritual journey. In other words, they don't believe that Muhammad's journey was a physical journey. It appears that some verses in the Quran are metaphorical (symbolic). But for some reason, a lot of muslims seem to take (interpret) all quranic verses literally.
From my understanding of the Quran, one must perform Salat 2 times each day. In verse 2458, the quran suggests that one must perform Salat at dawn (morning) and at dusk (night). In other words, verse 2458 seems to state that we one must perform Salat 2 times a day.
Quran mentions 2 daily salat
- Salat Al Fajr (morning).
- Salat Al Isha (Night).
Since the Quran is complete and detailed, I think that it would be prudent/sensible to only perform Salat 2 times a day.
To sum up, 5 daily Salat seems to have no basis in the Quran. The notion of 5 daily Salat seems to have its origins in Hadith. The Quran suggests that Muhammad could not perform any miracles. Hence, the notion that Muhammad ascended to the sixth and seventh heaven seems to be problematic/unlikely. Also, the quran suggests that one must perform Salat 2 times a day. And since the Quran is complete and detailed, it seems that one does not need to rely on extra quranic teachings (hadith etc.) in regards to how many times one must perform Salat each day.
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Peace Kikotsu.
Let us see then ,since you say,quote
there are only 3 named ritual prayers in THE HOLY QURAN and they are
1- Dawn Prayer (Salat Al-Fajr) Mentioned in 2458
2- Night Prayer (Salat Al-Isha) Mentioned in 2485
3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
What do you make of these verses?
1778What salat is that?
Then
11114How many salat here? some say 2.some say 3? Look at the threads ,no agreement.
I say three,according to my understanding.Then there is the verse you mentioned 2228. Some say it does not mean a "middle prayer".Some say it means more than 2, since "saltaini" is an Arabic word for two, "Salawat" means more than 2., hence if there is a middle prayer as well, the minimum "salawat" and a middle prayer is 5?
You see ,may be according to you Qoran says there are only three prayers,but according to others there are only 2 prayers and according to another group there are 5 prayers in Qoran?
Not that simple ,is it? You have to be certain ,you see?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
peace all,
Since the Quran is complete and detailed, I think that it would be prudent/sensible to only perform Salat 2 times a day.
Not that simple ,is it? You have to be certain ,you see?
My view is simple and encompasses other understandings also (e.g. 2, 3, 5 etc), and that is Quran states a minimum of two daily salat for the mumineen. ;D
If readers are researching however, this article is one of the best deconstructions with regard to timings.
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(selawat) is a word simply marking plural object and does not specify how many. (selawateh) is singular object alternatively uncountable.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Salam everyone
If you can even translate "wusta" as middle... that is not very likely
Incorrect. See point 11 here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.htmlif you mean that Al-Salat Al-Wusta means the Perfect Salat (God tells us to perform a perfect Salat) so
I need to remind you of Al-Masjid Al-Haram .. the word (Al-Haram) is not an adjecive but also forms with
word (Al-Masjid) a name this is also the case of Al-Bayt Al-Ateeq .. the word (Al-Ateeq) doesn't only
mean (the ancient) but it also form a name after adding it to word (Al-Bayt)
So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description of a Perfect Salat
Also Remeber ! every Salat must be perfect !
Please read the verse carefully
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,
and devote yourselves totally to GOD
GOD doesn't command us to observe a (non perfect Salat "You shall consistently observe the Contact
Prayers" then he remind us (in the same verse) to observe a perfect one (especially Al-Salat Al-Wusta)
!
SO if Al-Salat Al-Wusta means (the Perfect/best/etc... Salat) then , does GOD command us to observe
two kinds of Salat a non perfect one , and a perfect one ?
Quran mentions 2 daily salat
- Salat Al Fajr (morning).
- Salat Al Isha (Night).
incorrect !
Quran mentions 3 Daily SalatWhat do you make of these verses?
1778this verse talks about 3 Salat
translation
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its
highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran
at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
1- Duluk Al-Shams (when the sun declines from its highest point at noon) this is the
Middle Prayer , it's timing is from the noon to the sunset (you can perform it during this time)
2- Ela Ghasak Al-Layl (as it moves towards sunset) this is the ending of Middle Prayer and the start
of Isha/Night Prayer
3- Wa Quran Al-Fajr (You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn) this is Fajr/Dawn
Prayer
Then
11114Translation
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during
the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take
heed.
this verse talks about two ritual prayers (Salat) and they are the Dawn Prayer and the Night Prayer
lets examine
ends of the day are sunrise and sunset but GOD also says (and during the night)! so is this another
Salat ?
NO ! , first we must know that GOD said in
Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying
down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat)
are decreed for the believers at specific times.
and because the Quran is FULLY DETAILED , there must be a detailed mention of
the prayers times
sunrise and sunset are two actions that takes about 2 minutes , and GOD know that we can't observe the
Salat in 2 minutes ! so he gave us a time range to observe those 2 prayers , and that is (and during the
night) , so now we can understand the verse clearer
Night Prayer (range of time) (sunset) and (immediately after sunset)
Dawn Prayer (range of time) (just before sunrise) and (sunrise)
Now for the Middle Prayer this Prayer starts when the sun declines from it's highest point (noon) and
ends at sunset (the time when Night Prayer begins)
this verse makes the point clear
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,
and devote yourselves totally to GOD.
GOD tells people to consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer ! why
especially the middle prayer ?
because most people are in their homes at the time of Night Prayer and Dawn Prayer but they are at work
during the Middle Prayer
imagine this situation a mother tells her son eat your dinner and vegetables ... now , vegetables
are part of the dinner but the mother mentioned it not because it's separate of the dinner but to remind
her son of the importance of vegetables
so , because most people cannot observe the Middle Prayer at noon , he gave us a range of time to
observe it , and that is when the sun starts to decline from it's highest point at noon , to sunset when
Night Prayer begins
the story of prophet Solomon confirms this
One day he became preoccupied with beautiful horses, until the night fell.
He then said, "I enjoyed the material things more than I enjoyed worshipping my Lord, until the
sun was gone.
according to these verses , Prophet Solomon was distracted by beautiful horses so he forgot to observe
the Middle Prayer until he realized that the sun had already vanished behind the line of the horizon
this story is a proof that the Middle Prayer can be observed from noon until right before sunset at the
latest and it also shows that a riutal prayer cannot be observed once missed
How many salat here? some say 2.some say 3? Look at the threads ,no agreement.
because many don't try to understand the Quran according to the Quranic way (simple words and clear
message)
let's use simple words to understand the verse
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its
highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran
at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
if some people don't trust in translations , I'll use the Arabic text
1778
the three words are
1- ( س Duluk Al-Shams
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%88%D9%83/
use any Good English-Arabic translator (not Google -_-) and it will give you something like (when it (I
mean the sun) starts to decline from noon to sunset)
2- ( ل Ghasak Al-Layl
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%82-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84/
the translation is (Darkness of the Night)
3- ( ر Quran Al-Fajr
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%AC%D8%B1/
Al-Fajr means Dawn and you can use any translator (even Google) to be sure
so the Command is to observe only 3 ritual prayers and they are the Middle Prayer , Night Prayer and
Dawn Prayer
peace for everyone
