FIVE DAILY SALAWAT IN ISLAM AND ZOROASTRIANISM
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That a specified worship five times a day is a God?s commandment given in all revealed religions is confirmed by the fact that a revealed religion known as Mazdayasni religion or commonly called Zoroastrianism which is the ancient religion of Iran enjoins a specified worship five times a day whose timing is based on the movement of Sun as in the case of Islam.
Zoroastrians call this specified worship ?Gah worship/prayer?. The term ?Gah? means ?period of time? or ?place?. So Gah worship means ?timed worship?. It is apparently a name given in latter days to Yasna which has to be performed five times daily in its respective times. In reality, Gah worship is nothing but Yasna in Avestan language which means Fire Oblation or Worship through fire/Fire based worship or Sacrifice. Its Sanskrit equivalent is Yajna as practiced in other revealed religion ?Hinduism?. This worship is called ?Incense Burning? or ?Burnt Offering? in Hebrew scriptures when it is named Salat in the Quran.
The striking similarity between Islam and Zoroastrianism in the timing of five daily worship is given below
Time/Islam/Zoroasrianism
Dawn/Fajr/Havaan
Noon/Zuhar/Rapithwan
Afternoon/Asr/Uziren
Evening/Maghrib/Aiwisuthrem
Night/Isha/UshaenCall for Five daily worship
Just like the believers are called for Salat in a Masjid by a Muezzin(caller) in Islam five times a day, the Zoroastrian believers are summoned by the ringing of a bell in the Atash Behram / Agiary / Fire Temple to perform Yasna(Gah worship) five times a day.
Ablution
Muslims are required to do ritual purification like washing face and limbs before commencing Salat. Likewise, Zoroastrians are required to do wash their face and limbs before commencing Yasna(Gah worship).
Head Cover
In the same way as Muslims cover their heads traditionally when performing Salat, Zoroastrians are required to cover their heads when performing Yasna(Gah worship).
Facing the Direction
The direction at which Muslims are to perform Salat is called the Qiblah in the Quran. In the Atashbehram/Agiary the room where the Atash Padshah(Sacred Fire) is enthroned is called the Keblaah in Zoroastrianism.
Reading/Reciting portions from Scripture
As Muslims are required to read/recite portions from the Quran in the original language of its revelation ie Arabic while performing Salat, Zoroastrians are required to read/recite portions from the Avesta(Gathas) in the original language of its revelation ie Avesta when performing Yasna(Gah worship).
Sacred Fire and Incense
The method of performing Yasna(Gah worship) done by Zoroastrians is as follows
1.Stand before the sacred fire enthroned on the fire altar in an Agiary /Fire Temple or sit or stand before the sacred fire ignited at the home fire altar;
- Read/recite portions from the scripture;
3.Burn the powdered herbals/incense on the sacred fire ie oblation into sacred fire.
It is where the so-called Muslims shunned the true Salat by substituting the sacred fire and offering incense as oblation into sacred fire with the acts of bowing and prostrating. This is how the sectarian Muslims lost the core part of Salat ie oblation into sacred fire and retained Salat only in the name.
Oh Vivek? Screw the sacred fire.
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What I'm trying to say is, being deeply in love with the materials rather than comprehending the message, one might as well throw themselves into the fire, or be thrown into it, since they love it so much, they should make love to it too.
Zoroastrianism went the path which hardens, when the meaning of the symbolism is perhaps lost, and it becomes about feeding a fire.
If someone ignorant responds "screw Allah!" they should know, I am not sexually attracted to Allah in the least bit, nor is there anything at all to be attracted to!
Those who love the fire should bathe in it thoroughly. Truly, bathing in fire is transformative! You'll come out looking like a new man!
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Salam Brother
is GOD a cow ?
this question is stupid right ? because GOD IS NOT A COW , but some people believe that GOD IS A COW ! so , do you have to believe that God is a cow because some people do ?
you explained the similarities between Zoroastrianism and TRADITIONAL ISLAM according to YOUR PERSPECTIVE which you have DECIDED IT EARLIER !
this is a simple question , I want to ask you
QURAN IS FULLY DETAILED
6114 Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
GOD DOES NOT ERR OR FORGET
2052 He said The knowledge of it is with my Lord, in a record. My Lord does not err or forget.
GOD DOES NOT RUN OUT OF WORDS
3127 And if all the trees on the earth were made into pens, and the ocean were supplied by seven more oceans, the words of God would not run out. God is Noble, Wise.
DO YOU AGREE WITH THESE VERSES ?
if your answer was yes , please tell me , why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?
1- Quran is not fully detailed , and the other 2 ritual prayers can be found in Hadith >>> FALSE ! 6114 tells that Quran is FULLY DETAILED
2- GOD errs and forgets , so he forgot to mention the other 2 ritual prayers >>> FALSE ! 2052 tells that GOD DOES NOT ERR OR FORGET
3- GOD runs out of words , He was tired and couldn't mention the other 2 ritual prayers >>> FALSE ! 3127 tells that GOD DOES NOT RUN OUT OF WORDS
and we know that GOD IS NOT A LIAR , HE DOES NOT ERR , FORGET or RUN OUT OF WORDS , PLEASE ! THINK CAREFULLY
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue together
may ALLAH forgive us All and guide us
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Peace Kikotsu.
You said
why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?You also said
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue togetherI disagree with you. Where did you get that GOD did mention only 3 from?
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Kikotsu.
You said
why did GOD mentioned only 3 ritual/contact prayers in Quran ?You also said
and if any one found mistakes in my reply , please tell me , we can discuss the issue togetherI disagree with you. Where did you get that GOD did mention only 3 from?
GOD bless you.
Peace.Salam Brother and thank you for this nice question )
there are only 3 named ritual prayers in THE HOLY QURAN and they are
1- Dawn Prayer (Salat Al-Fajr) Mentioned in 2458
2- Night Prayer (Salat Al-Isha) Mentioned in 2485
3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
Peace )
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3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
If you can even translate "wusta" as middle... that is not very likely.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Peace everyone,
According to Hadith
When Mohammed met God in the seventh heaven through Miraj (an ascension to the heavens), God expected muslims to pray 50 times a day. But fortunately, Moses who was in the sixth heaven, advised Muhammad to reduce the number of prayers. By commuting from the seventh Heaven where God was located, to the sixth heaven where Moses was located, Muhammed was able to reduce the number of prayers even more.
My view
The story of Muhammad's journey/ascension to the sixth and seventh heaven seems to have no basis in the Quran. But this story can be found in Hadith (See Sahih Al-Bukhari 5.227). Since no verse in the Quran states that one must pray 5 times a day, it seems that the notion of 5 daily prayers has its origins in Hadith. The Quran mentions that Muhammad was on a journey, but the details of this journey is different from the details of the Miraj (ascension to the heavens) mentioned in Hadith. So the journey that Muhammad was on, seems to be a different type of journey, according to the Quran. As far as I know, no verse in the Quran states that Muhammad traveled to the sixth heaven to meet Moses and to the seventh heaven to meet God. Besides, the Quran seems to suggest that the only Miracle that was given to Muhammad was the Quran. In other words, it appears that Muhammad could not perform any miracles. If Muhammad could not perform any miracles, was he able to ascend to the sixth and seventh heaven? If my ask me, that sounds unlikely. In verse 1790, the quran seems to suggest that Muhammad's people would not believe in the message of God unless the messenger performed miracles.
Quran 1790-93 And they said "We will not believe unto you until you cause a spring of water to burst out of the ground." "Or that you have an estate of palm trees and grapes, and you cause gushing rivers to burst through it." "Or that you make the heaven fall upon us in pieces as you claimed, or that you bring God and the angels before us." "Or that you have a luxurious mansion, or that you can ascend into the heavens. We will not acknowledge your ascension unless you bring for us a book that we can study." Say, "Glory be to my Lord. Am I anything other than a human messenger!"
Also, some Muslim thinkers who have studied the Quran deeply, claim that Muhammad's journey was a spiritual journey. In other words, they don't believe that Muhammad's journey was a physical journey. It appears that some verses in the Quran are metaphorical (symbolic). But for some reason, a lot of muslims seem to take (interpret) all quranic verses literally.
From my understanding of the Quran, one must perform Salat 2 times each day. In verse 2458, the quran suggests that one must perform Salat at dawn (morning) and at dusk (night). In other words, verse 2458 seems to state that we one must perform Salat 2 times a day.
Quran mentions 2 daily salat
- Salat Al Fajr (morning).
- Salat Al Isha (Night).
Since the Quran is complete and detailed, I think that it would be prudent/sensible to only perform Salat 2 times a day.
To sum up, 5 daily Salat seems to have no basis in the Quran. The notion of 5 daily Salat seems to have its origins in Hadith. The Quran suggests that Muhammad could not perform any miracles. Hence, the notion that Muhammad ascended to the sixth and seventh heaven seems to be problematic/unlikely. Also, the quran suggests that one must perform Salat 2 times a day. And since the Quran is complete and detailed, it seems that one does not need to rely on extra quranic teachings (hadith etc.) in regards to how many times one must perform Salat each day.
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Peace Kikotsu.
Let us see then ,since you say,quote
there are only 3 named ritual prayers in THE HOLY QURAN and they are
1- Dawn Prayer (Salat Al-Fajr) Mentioned in 2458
2- Night Prayer (Salat Al-Isha) Mentioned in 2485
3- The Middle Prayer (Al-Salat Al-Wusta) Mentioned in 2238
What do you make of these verses?
1778What salat is that?
Then
11114How many salat here? some say 2.some say 3? Look at the threads ,no agreement.
I say three,according to my understanding.Then there is the verse you mentioned 2228. Some say it does not mean a "middle prayer".Some say it means more than 2, since "saltaini" is an Arabic word for two, "Salawat" means more than 2., hence if there is a middle prayer as well, the minimum "salawat" and a middle prayer is 5?
You see ,may be according to you Qoran says there are only three prayers,but according to others there are only 2 prayers and according to another group there are 5 prayers in Qoran?
Not that simple ,is it? You have to be certain ,you see?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
peace all,
Since the Quran is complete and detailed, I think that it would be prudent/sensible to only perform Salat 2 times a day.
Not that simple ,is it? You have to be certain ,you see?
My view is simple and encompasses other understandings also (e.g. 2, 3, 5 etc), and that is Quran states a minimum of two daily salat for the mumineen. ;D
If readers are researching however, this article is one of the best deconstructions with regard to timings.
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(selawat) is a word simply marking plural object and does not specify how many. (selawateh) is singular object alternatively uncountable.
Be safe
Amenuel -
Salam everyone
If you can even translate "wusta" as middle... that is not very likely
Incorrect. See point 11 here
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.htmlif you mean that Al-Salat Al-Wusta means the Perfect Salat (God tells us to perform a perfect Salat) so
I need to remind you of Al-Masjid Al-Haram .. the word (Al-Haram) is not an adjecive but also forms with
word (Al-Masjid) a name this is also the case of Al-Bayt Al-Ateeq .. the word (Al-Ateeq) doesn't only
mean (the ancient) but it also form a name after adding it to word (Al-Bayt)
So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description of a Perfect Salat
Also Remeber ! every Salat must be perfect !
Please read the verse carefully
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,
and devote yourselves totally to GOD
GOD doesn't command us to observe a (non perfect Salat "You shall consistently observe the Contact
Prayers" then he remind us (in the same verse) to observe a perfect one (especially Al-Salat Al-Wusta)
!
SO if Al-Salat Al-Wusta means (the Perfect/best/etc... Salat) then , does GOD command us to observe
two kinds of Salat a non perfect one , and a perfect one ?
Quran mentions 2 daily salat
- Salat Al Fajr (morning).
- Salat Al Isha (Night).
incorrect !
Quran mentions 3 Daily SalatWhat do you make of these verses?
1778this verse talks about 3 Salat
translation
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its
highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran
at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
1- Duluk Al-Shams (when the sun declines from its highest point at noon) this is the
Middle Prayer , it's timing is from the noon to the sunset (you can perform it during this time)
2- Ela Ghasak Al-Layl (as it moves towards sunset) this is the ending of Middle Prayer and the start
of Isha/Night Prayer
3- Wa Quran Al-Fajr (You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran at dawn) this is Fajr/Dawn
Prayer
Then
11114Translation
You shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) at both ends of the day, and during
the night. The righteous works wipe out the evil works. This is a reminder for those who would take
heed.
this verse talks about two ritual prayers (Salat) and they are the Dawn Prayer and the Night Prayer
lets examine
ends of the day are sunrise and sunset but GOD also says (and during the night)! so is this another
Salat ?
NO ! , first we must know that GOD said in
Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying
down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat)
are decreed for the believers at specific times.
and because the Quran is FULLY DETAILED , there must be a detailed mention of
the prayers times
sunrise and sunset are two actions that takes about 2 minutes , and GOD know that we can't observe the
Salat in 2 minutes ! so he gave us a time range to observe those 2 prayers , and that is (and during the
night) , so now we can understand the verse clearer
Night Prayer (range of time) (sunset) and (immediately after sunset)
Dawn Prayer (range of time) (just before sunrise) and (sunrise)
Now for the Middle Prayer this Prayer starts when the sun declines from it's highest point (noon) and
ends at sunset (the time when Night Prayer begins)
this verse makes the point clear
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,
and devote yourselves totally to GOD.
GOD tells people to consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer ! why
especially the middle prayer ?
because most people are in their homes at the time of Night Prayer and Dawn Prayer but they are at work
during the Middle Prayer
imagine this situation a mother tells her son eat your dinner and vegetables ... now , vegetables
are part of the dinner but the mother mentioned it not because it's separate of the dinner but to remind
her son of the importance of vegetables
so , because most people cannot observe the Middle Prayer at noon , he gave us a range of time to
observe it , and that is when the sun starts to decline from it's highest point at noon , to sunset when
Night Prayer begins
the story of prophet Solomon confirms this
One day he became preoccupied with beautiful horses, until the night fell.
He then said, "I enjoyed the material things more than I enjoyed worshipping my Lord, until the
sun was gone.
according to these verses , Prophet Solomon was distracted by beautiful horses so he forgot to observe
the Middle Prayer until he realized that the sun had already vanished behind the line of the horizon
this story is a proof that the Middle Prayer can be observed from noon until right before sunset at the
latest and it also shows that a riutal prayer cannot be observed once missed
How many salat here? some say 2.some say 3? Look at the threads ,no agreement.
because many don't try to understand the Quran according to the Quranic way (simple words and clear
message)
let's use simple words to understand the verse
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its
highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran
at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
if some people don't trust in translations , I'll use the Arabic text
1778
the three words are
1- ( س Duluk Al-Shams
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%88%D9%83/
use any Good English-Arabic translator (not Google -_-) and it will give you something like (when it (I
mean the sun) starts to decline from noon to sunset)
2- ( ل Ghasak Al-Layl
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%82-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84/
the translation is (Darkness of the Night)
3- ( ر Quran Al-Fajr
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%AC%D8%B1/
Al-Fajr means Dawn and you can use any translator (even Google) to be sure
so the Command is to observe only 3 ritual prayers and they are the Middle Prayer , Night Prayer and
Dawn Prayer
peace for everyone
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Peace Kikotsu.
Let us pick one verse at a time
The middle prayer according to you is the only prayer during the day time?
You say
his verse makes the point clear
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,
and devote yourselves totally to GOD.
Why does the verse not mean
"You shall consistently observe the salawat and the middle prayer"?
Your example of the mother does not make it any clearer,as the mother could say "eat your meal and your cake"? They are both food !
Also Solomon could have forgotten the "afternoon prayer" why not?That one is more likely to be missed in most hot countries when they work. ,because they are free in the middle of the day .They do the "siesta" .
All you have done is given your understanding.
I disagree with you about your explanations.
For me 1778 is talking about one prayer only. And 11114 is talking about three prayers,which leaves the middle prayer and these make 5 prayers.As for naming the salat, GOD has given specific timings and has not set to name the salawat in Qoran..
The verse that names the two salats is talking about a different subject that happens during these salats. .
If GOD intended to name the salawat ,the subject would have been clearly and specifically to name all the salawat.Of course this is my understanding.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Wakas, everyone,
My view is simple and encompasses other understandings also (e.g. 2, 3, 5 etc), and that is Quran states a minimum of two daily salat for the mumineen. ;D
I think that you are correct. I agree with the notion that there is a minimum of 2 daily Salat for the mumins (believers), not for the muslims (submitters).
In verse 44103, the Quran seems to suggest that Salat is for the mumins (believers).
Quran 44103 Then, if you have completed the contact prayer, remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides. Then, if you are secure, hold the contact prayer. Indeed, the contact prayer for the believers is a Book that is scheduled.
In verse 2458, the quran only mentions the word Salat (contact prayer) two times and seems to suggest that there is a minimum of 2 daily Salat.
Quran 2458 O you who believe, let those among you who are maintained by your oaths, and those who have not attained puberty, request your permission regarding three times before the dawn contact prayer, and when you put off your garments from the noon time, and after the evening contact prayer. These are three private times for you. Other than these times, it is not wrong for you or them to intermingle with one another. God thus clarifies the revelations for you. And God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
In verse 1778, the Quran seems to suggest that one can perform more than 2 daily Salat.
Quran 1778 Hold the contact prayer at the rubbing of the sun, until the darkening of the night; and the Qur'an at dawn-the Qur'an at dawn is witnessed.
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Peace Kikotsu.
Peace brother
I'm so sad that you even didn't read all my explanation carefully and you didn't even reply for the last part
and because the example of the mother and his child and the story of prophet Solomon weren't satisfy for you I'll reply your claims , may Allah guide us to the truth , and if I were wrong , may Allah guide me
The middle prayer according to you is the only prayer during the day time?
there is a prayer at Dawn
You say
his verse makes the point clear
You shall consistently observe the Contact Prayers, especially the middle prayer,
and devote yourselves totally to GOD.
It does
Why does the verse not mean
"You shall consistently observe the salawat and the middle prayer"?
so the problem her is the letter (wa) in Arabic which means (and) in English
this translation rises many problems
1- Why did God separate the Middle Prayer from the others ? why didn't he say "You shall consistently observe the salawat" ?
2- Which one of the claimed five ritual prayers is the Middle Prayer ?
Fajr - Zhohr - Asr - Maghrib - Isha , according to the dictionaries the Words Wusta means (that which is between to things/ends and is a part of them) , according to this definition the Middle Prayer must be the Asr Prayer , However , this can't be true when we come to the timing of Asr Prayer ! because it's is not in the middle between Fajr (Dawn) and Isha (Night) (please note that Asr is the Afternoon)
3- I repeat , Al-Salat Al-WustA is a NAME , and this name was mentioned in the Quran , so why didn't GOD say "You shall consistently observe the salawat and the ASR prayer" according to your translation ?
All you have done is given your understanding.
I disagree with you about your explanations.
For me 1778 is talking about one prayer only. And 11114 is talking about three prayers,which leaves the middle prayer and these make 5 prayers.Actually it's you who is giving his understanding )
I'll quote from my previous reply and please read carefully
1778
the three words are
1- ( س Duluk Al-Shams
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%AF%D9%84%D9%88%D9%83/
use any Good English-Arabic translator (not Google -_-) and it will give you something like (when it (I
mean the sun) starts to decline from noon to sunset)
2- ( ل Ghasak Al-Layl
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%BA%D8%B3%D9%82-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D9%8A%D9%84/
the translation is (Darkness of the Night)
3- ( ر Quran Al-Fajr
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D8%AC%D8%B1/
Al-Fajr means Dawn and you can use any translator (even Google) to be sure
so the Command is to observe only 3 ritual prayers and they are the Middle Prayer , Night Prayer and
Dawn Prayer
Now , your claim that this verse talks about one prayer is NOT TRUE
First let's understand this verse
You shall observe the Salat at the two ends of the day; and during the near parts of the night
What are the two ends of the day ? let's make dictionaries answer
the Two ends of the day are it's beginning and it's ending
(please note that in the Arabic text the words were which means the two ends of the day)
http//www.almaany.com/answers/184162/%D9%85%D8%A7-%D9%85%D8%B9%D9%86%D9%89-%D8%AC%D9%85%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%B7%D8%B1%D9%81%D8%A7-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D9%87%D8%A7%D8%B1
see also http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%B7%D8%B1%D9%81/
RESULT the two ends of the day are Dawn (sunrise) and Night (sunset)
Please check this link for more information
http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/night_start_%28P1369%29.html
Now let's read this verse
You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its
highest point at noon, as it moves towards sunset. You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran
at dawn. (Reciting) the Quran at dawn is witnessed.
Please Note (as it moves towards sunset) this is the Isha/Night Prayer , also (You shall also observe (the recitation of) the Quran
at dawn) this is the Fajr/Dawn Prayer
And (You shall observe the Contact Prayer (Salat) when the sun declines from its
highest point at noon) this is the Middle Prayer , the words cannot be clearer !
You see ! Noon is in the middle between sunrise and sunset , unlike afternoon which is closer to sunset
so talks about 2 ritual prayer (Dawn and Night) , talks about 3 ritual prayers (Dawn , Night and Middle) the sum of the ritual prayers are 3 Dawn , Middle and Night
is the main verse which talk about 3 Ritaul Prayers while explains the range of time for Dawn and Night ritual prayers , and gives us the specific time for the Middle Prayer (1778 also give us the range of time for the Middle Prayer)
As for naming the salat, GOD has given specific timings and has not set to name the salawat in Qoran..
The verse that names the two salats is talking about a different subject that happens during these salats. .
If GOD intended to name the salawat ,the subject would have been clearly and specifically to name all the salawat.So why did he mentioned only 3 Salat's names ? why didn't he mention the other 2 ? why in the whole Quran the is not mention for Asr Prayer and Maghrib Prayer ?
Did he forget ? Did he want us to have some puzzles ?
of course NO ! it's is humans who are not understanding
Of course this is my understanding.
please note that I gave you the full explanation and used Arabic dictionaries to give you the clearest meaning
so , I have a question for you
GOD said
Once you complete your Contact Prayer (Salat), you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Contact Prayers (Salat); the Contact Prayers (Salat) are decreed for the believers at specific times.
the Ritual prayers are decreed for the believers at specific times
Please give me the specific times for the 5 daily ritual prayers in the Quran according to your belief and PLEASE NOTE THAT GLORIFYING GOD IS NOT NECESSARY A RITUAL PRAYER BECAUSE YOU CAN GLORIFY GOD AT ANY TIME
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Peace Kokitsu.
I have read your posts.
You have requested my understanding of the specific times from Qoran,here they are
The Dawn Prayer given in 11114 and mentioned in2458
The Midday Prayer given in 1778 . Yes I believe this is a specific middle of the day prayer ( Not middle prayer!)
The Afternoon Prayer ( This is the middle prayer) given in 2238 , ( It does not matter whether you say "Especially the middle prayer or "And the middle prayer" in translating the verse. Since there are 4 other prayers the middle one is the one between them)
The sunset Prayer , given in 11114 ( Yes I understand Tarafain to mean both ends ,Dawn and dusk-Sunset-)
The Night Prayer , given in 11114 ( The night prayer) and mentioned in 2458 .
Where I differ with you brother is 11114,my understanding is 3 prayers altogether.
GOD gave specific times as windows during the different parts of the full day/night.
Of course you are entitled to your understanding.
My main point of replying in this thread is to make you aware of other views and possible interpretations.
Thank you . I appreciate your effort .
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Peace Kokitsu.
Peace Brother
The Dawn Prayer given in 11114 and mentioned in2458
Correct
The Midday Prayer given in 1778
this is true but
Yes I believe this is a specific middle of the day prayer ( Not middle prayer!)
this is not true , I've clarified this point previously
The Afternoon Prayer ( This is the middle prayer) given in 2238
this is also not true and I've shown you why this is not true
( It does not matter whether you say "Especially the middle prayer or "And the middle prayer" in translating the verse. Since there are 4 other prayers the middle one is the one between them)
I'll repeat the questions and PLEASE ANSWER THEM
1- Why did God separate the Middle Prayer from the others ? why didn't he say "You shall consistently observe the salawat" ?
2- Which one of the claimed five ritual prayers is the Middle Prayer ?
Fajr - Zhohr - Asr - Maghrib - Isha , according to the dictionaries the Words Wusta means (that which is between to things/ends and is a part of them) , according to this definition the Middle Prayer must be the Asr Prayer , However , this can't be true when we come to the timing of Asr Prayer ! because it's is not in the middle between Fajr (Dawn) and Isha (Night) (please note that Asr is the Afternoon)
3- I repeat , Al-Salat Al-WustA is a NAME , and this name was mentioned in the Quran , so why didn't GOD say "You shall consistently observe the salawat and the ASR prayer" according to your translation ?
The sunset Prayer , given in 11114 ( Yes I understand Tarafain to mean both ends ,Dawn and dusk-Sunset-)
The Night Prayer , given in 11114 ( The night prayer) and mentioned in 2458 .
this is a complete misunderstanding for the word Layl in Arabic which means Night .. check the link that I gave you
http//www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/night_start_%28P1369%29.htmlWhere I differ with you brother is 11114,my understanding is 3 prayers altogether.
it's your understanding , but I gave you many proofs that it is only 2 ritual prayers not 3
Please check this link http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/number_of_salat_(P1200).html
Of course you are entitled to your understanding.
so your are saying all my work to give you the correct meaning of the words in Arabic and all the explanations and logical questions that I asked you which you didn't even answer , are not proofs ? please read my posts and read yours .. who gave the detailed proofs ?
My main point of replying in this thread is to make you aware of other views and possible interpretations.
Thank you . I appreciate your effort .Actually , I used to believe in 5 ritual prayers but when I saw the truth I accepted it , I also thank you for your work
HOWEVER , you didn't answer these questions
1- Why did GOD only mention 3 Ritual Prayers's names ?
2- Why there is no mention for Maghrib prayer and Asr prayer ?
3- Why there is no mention for the specific times of Maghrib and Asr prayers ?
Always remember
Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
Now , to reach our aim which is knowing the number of daily ritual prayers , can you please clarify your understanding in points (1,2,3..) with full explanation for each Salat (timing , range of time , mention)
but before , can you please answer the above questions ?
may GOD bless us all
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peace kikotsu,
There are a number of issues with your view.
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I did not state "wusta" means "perfect" and in the article I linked to I link to a post which explains WHY "wusta" was likely used.
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You said, quote "So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description"
This suggests you are not knowledgeable of Arabic. That is ok, neither am I, but I do know that I have discussed this issue many times with those knowledgeable of Arabic and not one has ever claimed it is a name, and every Arabic grammar book I have read also shows that this construction is a description, not a naming. If you disagree, please provide your evidence from an Arabic grammar book.
The Quranic evidence you provide does not prove anything as a name in Arabic is determined by context, and the examples you gave can also be taken as common nouns. In fact, even some traditionalists take them as such. -
You conveniently ignored all the other points made in point 11.
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Your insertion of "isha" into 1778 is an obvious forced insertion (because you know the timings are a problem for your 3-salat view).
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Your translation of "duluk" as noon, whilst theoretically possible, it is not the primary meaning. It also suffers from other issues, also mentioned in the article I linked to, e.g. "salat" is singular.
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You claim one can do salat within the timing mentioned in 1778, despite Quran saying uphold salat A to B. Do you do this anywhere else in Quran? If so please state where.
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Your translation of 3832 is blatantly wrong, "sun" is not even mentioned.
There may have been other errors but the above will suffice for now.
I strongly recommend re-reading the article I linked to.
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Peace Kikotsu.
You have not proved anything. You simply gave your understanding of the verses.
1- Why did GOD only mention 3 Ritual Prayers's names ?
GOD has not set to name salats. God gave specific times for the salats.
2- Why there is no mention for Maghrib prayer and Asr prayer ?
Again specific times for these have been given in 11114 and 2228. According to my understanding.
3- Why there is no mention for the specific times of Maghrib and Asr prayers ?
Same answer as 2.
It seems our understanding of 11114 differ.
By the way a "middle "prayer can be between 2 or 4 or 6 or....any even number of prayers.If it is in the middle,it will be the middle prayer.GOD bless you.
Peace. -
peace kikotsu,
There are a number of issues with your view.
-
I did not state "wusta" means "perfect" and in the article I linked to I link to a post which explains WHY "wusta" was likely used.
-
You said, quote "So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description"
This suggests you are not knowledgeable of Arabic. That is ok, neither am I, but I do know that I have discussed this issue many times with those knowledgeable of Arabic and not one has ever claimed it is a name, and every Arabic grammar book I have read also shows that this construction is a description, not a naming. If you disagree, please provide your evidence from an Arabic grammar book.
The Quranic evidence you provide does not prove anything as a name in Arabic is determined by context, and the examples you gave can also be taken as common nouns. In fact, even some traditionalists take them as such. -
You conveniently ignored all the other points made in point 11.
-
Your insertion of "isha" into 1778 is an obvious forced insertion (because you know the timings are a problem for your 3-salat view).
-
Your translation of "duluk" as noon, whilst theoretically possible, it is not the primary meaning. It also suffers from other issues, also mentioned in the article I linked to, e.g. "salat" is singular.
-
You claim one can do salat within the timing mentioned in 1778, despite Quran saying uphold salat A to B. Do you do this anywhere else in Quran? If so please state where.
-
Your translation of 3832 is blatantly wrong, "sun" is not even mentioned.
There may have been other errors but the above will suffice for now.
I strongly recommend re-reading the article I linked to.
Hello Brother
First let me say that I'm from Syria , a country where people speaks Arabic
Second we are running in a circle where we pass the same points again but with no answers ! yet again I invite everyone to answer the Questions which I have posted many times but still ... no answer !
let me reply to all your point
- You said, quote "So .. Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name not a description"
This suggests you are not knowledgeable of Arabic. That is ok, neither am I, but I do know that I have discussed this issue many times with those knowledgeable of Arabic and not one has ever claimed it is a name, and every Arabic grammar book I have read also shows that this construction is a description, not a naming. If you disagree, please provide your evidence from an Arabic grammar book.
The Quranic evidence you provide does not prove anything as a name in Arabic is determined by context, and the examples you gave can also be taken as common nouns. In fact, even some traditionalists take them as such.
YES I'm knowledgeable of Arabic because I speak Arabic since I was a child , to prove that Al-Salat Al-Wusta is a name I'll use the Arabic
when we have two words , one of them is an adjective to the other , so the two words form a name (a described name)
I'll quote from the website so you can translate it and I'll give you the link
.
.
link http//www.al-eman.com/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%A8%20**/%20%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%A8%20%D8%AC%D9%85%D8%B9%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A7%D8%A1%20%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D8%B6%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%A9%20/i68&d60497&c&p1
examples Al-Bayt Al-Atiq is Kabaa in Mecca , Al-Masjid Al-Haram is the sacred mosque in Mecca , Al-Yaom Al-Akhir is the Last Day , Malik Al-Molk is a name for our Lord , As.hab Al-feel are the army of the elephant , even in culture , Zombies are Al-Ahya' Al-Maytoon etc...
- Your insertion of "isha" into 1778 is an obvious forced insertion (because you know the timings are a problem for your 3-salat view).
"as it moves towards sunset" this is Isha
Isha is the first darkness of the night
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B9%D8%B4%D8%A7%D8%A1/
so the verse is talking about a command to observe the Middle Prayer at noon (to) sunset , when it finishes ... this is Isha
- Your translation of "duluk" as noon, whilst theoretically possible, it is not the primary meaning. It also suffers from other issues, also mentioned in the article I linked to, e.g. "salat" is singular.
without reading your article .. there is a logical question Arabic dictionaries define Duluk as
this is from noon to sunset
Also
Dalakat (verb form of Duluk) Al-Shams moved (inclined) from the highest point of Sky half of the Day (noon) , inclined towards sunset
this is Al-Ra'd dictionary
you can also check other dictionaries like Lesan Al-Arab
you can also check Lesan Al-Arab dictionary
THIS IS ARABIC , why should I believe that Duluk means something else ?
- You claim one can do salat within the timing mentioned in 1778, despite Quran saying uphold salat A to B. Do you do this anywhere else in Quran? If so please state where.
Do you mean that we must pray from noon to sunset ? No , the Arabic text doesn't say uphold Salat (Mn= from) noon to sunset
it says uphold Salat (le=to) (the time) when sun declines from it's highest point (at noon) to sunset , so the meaning is (up hold Middle Prayer at the time between noon and sunset) and this is any time between noon and sunset .. there is no mention to uphold Salat A to B
- Your translation of 3832 is blatantly wrong, "sun" is not even mentioned
it is not a translation , it's to show the story , the sun is not mentioned literally but the story is talking about prophet Solomon when he forgot to observe Middle Prayer until he realized that (it) had already vanished behind the line of the horizon
so (it) must be the sun , any other suggestions ?
Now , for the point 11 from your article
After a questionable translation of "wa" in 2238 as "especially", the author states, quote (bold and underline emphasis mine)
"The prayers are referred to as ?salawaat? which is plural (singular salat). Therefore by simple deduction there has to be clearly more than 1 prayer in the day if this is a reference to the daily prayers."Actually there must be more than 2 ritual prayers in the day according to that verse
In 2238 The Quran makes no reference to the "salawaat" being "in a day", thus the use of "if" above is important to note. In a day is an assumption. Next, it is said, quote
"If the literal meaning of 'wusta' is taken as ?middle? and which seems correct in context..."if you read the Quran carefully you must notice that when the command is to observe Salat for all of our life , Quran uses the singular form of Salat (this is also the case of Zakat)
"You shall observe the Salat and give the Zakat." 2110
"Say to My servants who believe to observe the Salat and to spend from what We have provided them." 1431
so , GOD tells us (in 223 to consistently observe all Ritual Prayers in the day (one day)
The author provides no reasoning/evidence why it "seems correct in context". The author then references one usage (1005) of the verb "WaSaTa" (same root as the adjective/noun "WuSTa" in 223 to show that it can mean a literal "middle". However, what the author fails to mention is that every other occurrence of this root in The Quran shows it means "middle" in the figurative sense, i.e. balanced, conforming/equitable/just/excellent, average/moderate, most remote from the extremes. See its other adjective/noun usage below
And as such, We have made you a WaSaTan nation...
God will not hold you for your unintentional oaths, but He will hold you for what oaths you have made binding; its cancellation shall be the feeding of ten poor from the aWSaTi of what you feed your family...
The aWSaTu of them said "Did I not say to you why do you not glorify God?"
Therefore, in terms of simple probability, the adjective/noun "wasat" in 2238 more likely refers to the figurative meaning of "middle".
because (Wusta) in 2238 is a name as I proved to you using Arabic dictionaries , and because Middle Prayer starts at noon (which is the middle point between sunrise and sunset)
the misunderstanding that you fell in is the difference between words looks like to be the same in the verses
Middle Prayer is Al-Salat Al(WUsta) while the other words are DIFFERENT
Again .. let's use Arabic dictionaries
WUSTA is NOT WASAT , the plural form of WASAT is AWSAT while the plural form of WUSTA is WUSAT
WUSAT means MIDDLE while WASAT means MODEST etc...
check this link
http//www.almaany.com/ar/dict/ar-ar/%D9%88%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%89/
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