Resolving apparent contradictions in the Quran

unknownuser

Peace Imraan,

Peace Abdullah

You claim that what you give is voluntary according to 2219. Yet 960 states that sadaqaah is fard.

How do you reconcile these verses.

Imraan

It is voluntary, where the contradiction is? This is like saying there is compulsion in religion.

All are free to choose to give a little or a lot; to believe or not.

alssadaqatu - a religious duty/stipulation from God (fareedatan mina Allahi)

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Abdullah

It is voluntary, where the contradiction is? This is like saying there is compulsion in religion.

All are free to choose to give a little or a lot; to believe or not.

alssadaqatu - a religious duty/stipulation from God (fareedatan mina Allahi)

I do not see 2256 as meaning the individual can decide that which he wishes to follow of the duties/stipulations from God. This idea comes from interpreting deen as religion. Deen refers to the system sanctioned by God. Therefore there is no compulsion as far as forcing someone to accept the system sanctioned by God. However one who accepts the system sanctioned by God IS compelled to uphold the duties & stipulations from God or else, by definition such a person becomes a denier of the system which he claims to accept.

Please take note of 9111, wher God has purchased from the mu'minoon their selves & their wealth in exchange for Jannah. This verse would imply that niether your nafs nor your wealth belongs to you if you are a mu'min. It belongs to God. Therefore a mu'min is required to utilise his nafs & wealth in fulfilling what God has promised the beings on earth. I will elaborate on this once I have heard your opinion on this verse.

Imraan

unknownuser

Peace imraan,

Peace Abdullah

I do not see 2256 as meaning the individual can decide that which he wishes to follow of the duties/stipulations from God. This idea comes from interpreting deen as religion. Deen refers to the system sanctioned by God. Therefore there is no compulsion as far as forcing someone to accept the system sanctioned by God. However one who accepts the system sanctioned by God IS compelled to uphold the duties & stipulations from God or else, by definition such a person becomes a denier of the system which he claims to accept.

Please take note of 9111, wher God has purchased from the mu'minoon their selves & their wealth in exchange for Jannah. This verse would imply that niether your nafs nor your wealth belongs to you if you are a mu'min. It belongs to God. Therefore a mu'min is required to utilise his nafs & wealth in fulfilling what God has promised the beings on earth. I will elaborate on this once I have heard your opinion on this verse.

Imraan

Yes all things come from and belong to God which does not mean abandonment of all wealth and give it to the poor; up to each individual to be "mindful" and their choice what they want to contribute to whomever whatever they like.

2245

Who (is) that who lends God a good loan, so He multiplies it for him many doubles/multiples, and God holds and spreads, and to Him you are being returned.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Abdullah

Yes all things come from and belong to God which does not mean abandonment of all wealth and give it to the poor; up to each individual to be "mindful" and their choice what they want to contribute to whomever whatever they like.

2245

Who (is) that who lends God a good loan, so He multiplies it for him many doubles/multiples, and God holds and spreads, and to Him you are being returned.

Your reference of 2.245 creates an "apparent" contradiction with 9111. How can I, as a mu'min loan to Allah what is already His?

This is another example of why I contend that some verses, such as 2.245 are meant for a time in societal development when people are being asked to voluntarily provide for those who are struggling as the conditions of that society is as yet unable to provide for the basic needs of all its members.

9111 on the other hand refers to a society that is at a higher stage of development because people in such a society are closer to the establishment of the system of God & therefore able, by acknowledging the obligation they have of fulfilling the right of those who are struggling to their excess wealth, to provide for the basic needs of every member of their society.

Also, I am curious to know how you view God's deliverance of rizq to evryone. There are people starving everywhere. Does this mean that God cannot keep HIs promise? See 1731, 2960, 3647-48.

Imraan

unknownuser

Peace Imraan,

Peace Abdullah

Your reference of 2.245 creates an "apparent" contradiction with 9111. How can I, as a mu'min loan to Allah what is already His?

This is another example of why I contend that some verses, such as 2.245 are meant for a time in societal development when people are being asked to voluntarily provide for those who are struggling as the conditions of that society is as yet unable to provide for the basic needs of all its members.

9111 on the other hand refers to a society that is at a higher stage of development because people in such a society are closer to the establishment of the system of God & therefore able, by acknowledging the obligation they have of fulfilling the right of those who are struggling to their excess wealth, to provide for the basic needs of every member of their society.

Also, I am curious to know how you view God's deliverance of rizq to evryone. There are people starving everywhere. Does this mean that God cannot keep HIs promise? See 1731, 2960, 3647-48.

Imraan

To give a beautiful/godly loan is a metaphor a mu'min can do then, now, or at anytime in between.

God's promise is to individuals which for me personally have always come true as in surah Maryam...

(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279

K?f H? Y? A?n S?d a mention of the mercy of your Lord to His slave Zakariyya when he called out his Lord a call in secret. He said "My Lord! Indeed my bones have grown feeble, and grey hair has spread on my head, And I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Abdullah

To give a beautiful/godly loan is a metaphor a mu'min can do then, now, or at anytime in between.

God's promise is to individuals which for me personally have always come true as in surah Maryam...

(&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279 (&#65279

K?f H? Y? A?n S?d a mention of the mercy of your Lord to His slave Zakariyya when he called out his Lord a call in secret. He said "My Lord! Indeed my bones have grown feeble, and grey hair has spread on my head, And I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!

If I have a one of a kind item that I sell to you. Once we have concluded the transaction, that item now belongs to you. How can I then loan it to you if I am no longer the owner?

I'm not sure exactly what your reference to 191-4 is about in the context of what we are discussing.

Do you then believe that God decides individually who will get what. If so, do you believe this is decided ahead of time?As in the case of the generally held idea of "taqdeer"? I mean here that things are pre-destined. In the case of Zakariyyah, do you believe that it was by some miracle beyond the physical laws of the universe that he was granted a child?

Imraan

Samia

9013 The freeing of slaves

This is exactly what I am talking about. There's no "slave" nor "freeing". The expression means loosen/lift the burden. It's an idiom whatever is on a neck is a burden. Arabic still uses this expression, even in the spoken language.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Samia

In reference to 9013, you posted

This is exactly what I am talking about. There's no "slave" nor "freeing". The expression means loosen/lift the burden. It's an idiom whatever is on a neck is a burden. Arabic still uses this expression, even in the spoken language.

I looked through some verses & see what you mean. I have come accross words with roots "raa-qaf-baa" & "ain-baa-daal" being construed to mean slave, when in fact this may not be the meaning at all. Are there any other words with roots other than theses that are used for slave by translators in the quran?

Imraan

Samia

Are there any other words with roots other than theses that are used for slave by translators in the quran?

Imraan

Yes, the infamous "maa malakat aymaanukum". Also "fataa and fataat/young or strong man; young or strong woman"
The qur'aan explicitely uses the word "3abdun mamluukun/ an owned slave"

1675

Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men one) a helpless, owned slave (an owned slave who has no power of any sort); and a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Samia

The qur'aan explicitely uses the word "3abdun mamluukun/ an owned slave"

1675

Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men one) a helpless, owned slave (an owned slave who has no power of any sort); and a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly are the two equal? (By no means praise be to Allah. But most of them understand not.

Is this the only occurrence of the term in the quran?

Imraan

unknownuser

Peace Imraan,

If I have a one of a kind item that I sell to you. Once we have concluded the transaction, that item now belongs to you. How can I then loan it to you if I am no longer the owner?

There was no transaction; a godly loan is metaphor, not literal, a figure of speech and only to our benefit.

I'm not sure exactly what your reference to 191-4 is about in the context of what we are discussing.

You asked if God provides/answers prayers -- "...And I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!"

Do you then believe that God decides individually who will get what.

I believe so.

If so, do you believe this is decided ahead of time?As in the case of the generally held idea of "taqdeer"? I mean here that things are pre-destined.

I believe God is past present future -- like playing chess with God, your move is known and "at the same time" your move.

In the case of Zakariyyah, do you believe that it was by some miracle beyond the physical laws of the universe that he was granted a child?

Do we know the physical laws where the entire lenght/time slice of our demision is available to a higher-dimension?

http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/rv/3014_04.html

Samia

Peace Samia

Is this the only occurrence of the term in the quran?

Imraan

The word "3abd" occurs several times as you know, but with relation to God (plural 3ibaad), it's not "slave", except four times in this construction

Your Lord is never unjust to the "3abeed" (plural of 3abd/slave).

The word 3abd, not related to God, also comes in this verse2178

which I do not think is talking about humans but animals
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15944.msg156893#msg156893

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Abdullah

There was no transaction; a godly loan is metaphor, not literal, a figure of speech and only to our benefit.

Surely even in a metaphor the wording is important in conveying the intended message. Why use the word loan if you want to convey a concept that has no relation to it?

You asked if God provides/answers prayers -- "...And I have never been unblest in my invocation to You, O my Lord!"

I don't recall asking this question.

Quote
Do you then believe that God decides individually who will get what.

I believe so.

Quote
If so, do you believe this is decided ahead of time?As in the case of the generally held idea of "taqdeer"? I mean here that things are pre-destined.

I believe God is past present future -- like playing chess with God, your move is known and "at the same time" your move.

How can you be held accountable if this is the case? This makes no sense whatsoever. PLease give quranic evidence for this view.

Do we know the physical laws where the entire lenght/time slice of our demision is available to a higher-dimension?

http//www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/programs/ht/rv/3014_04.html

Let's leave this point for a little later in the discussion.

Imraan

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace All

Has this thread died because my contentions cannot be refuted or because you guys find that they are not worth responding to ?

Either way, I'd like to know. I can then evaluate my stance & determine where my study of this issue should go.

Imraan

TheJoker

Peace Imraan,

If you are referring to 2/219 vs. 9/60...

Here's my explanation

In 2/219, we are to give the excess (this is general). The people we are to give it to are mentioned in 9/60.

Also, sadaqat is not used in 2/219.

Re 2/245 vs. 9/111

This is a non-issue; the wording a) is metaphorical, and b) where is rizq in 9/111??

Anything else I missed? This thread is kinda hard to follow...

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace Imraan,

If you are referring to 2/219 vs. 9/60...

Here's my explanation

In 2/219, we are to give the excess (this is general). The people we are to give it to are mentioned in 9/60.

Also, sadaqat is not used in 2/219.

Re 2/245 vs. 9/111

This is a non-issue; the wording a) is metaphorical, and b) where is rizq in 9/111??

Anything else I missed? This thread is kinda hard to follow...

In your opinion is sadaqat voluntary or a compulsory duty?

What is the arabic equivalent of metaphorical in the quran?

How is rizq defined in the quran?

Forgive the response filled with questions, but I would just like to see what your stance is on these before we move forward discussing this.

Imraan

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

6141 is generally taken as to meaning that zaka is due on the day of harvest, although that word is not even in that verse - it say "haqq". Can someone give me a translation (their own) and an explanation/commentary?

Thanks

1CELOSTNOWFOUND

Peace progressive

6141 is generally taken as to meaning that zaka is due on the day of harvest, although that word is not even in that verse - it say "haqq". Can someone give me a translation (their own) and an explanation/commentary?

Thanks

You will find the same derivative of "haqq" in the following verses (1726, 303

Notice the connection between "haqq" & "sadaqa". Both roots have to do with the truth. Therefore there is some kind of relation between the words. In the sense of a payment they seem to be closely related too.

Also, the term zakat is not charity. Below is an excerpt from a talk at the recent Quran Conference held in South Africa

The misconceptions regarding sadaqaat & zakaat have lead to a misunderstanding of what our duties are regarding spending from our wealth and our selves. Let?s first look at the definitions of these terms. The first misconception is common to both terms. That is the fallacy that they mean charity. Charity is something that tends to create a feeling of superiority in the one who gives it and a feeling of inferiority in the one who receives it.

Sadaqaat has at its root the meaning of truth. A careful study of the concept clearly shows that it is the fulfilment of a right that is due, in other words recognition of the truth that those in need have a right over you. I would like to illustrate this with a few examples.

In (44), we find that the gift that is given to a woman upon marriage is described as saduqaat. Clearly this is not a charity. It is given as a fulfilment of her right to such a gift. Also we find in (128, when Yusuf?s brothers come to him in a time of need they say ?Give us that which will be a fulfilment of a right that is due to us for Alllah rewards those who cause the fulfilment of a right that is due.? This fits much better in relation to the consistency of the concept than saying ? Treat it as charity to us for Allah rewards the charitable?.

A study of the concept of zakaat in the Quran shows that there is no way that this could simply refer to an obligatory charity, whether it be 2.5% or any other amount for that matter. A key issue in understanding this is presented in (417) which shows us that one who rejects the aakhir cannot uphold the zakaat, whatever it is. Now surely someone who denies the aakhir is capable of giving 2.5% or even much more than that in charity. Zakaat is the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs by causing the development of the community in every respect. It is also stated that if established in power, it is incumbent on such a group to arrange for the establishment of the salaah (which is itself a much broader concept than generally accepted) and the fulfilment of opportunities to develop the nafs of each member of the society through the development of the entire community in every respect and to constantly serve Allah (2173). It is clear that it is a function of the community or state through its leader to ensure that it provides this complete concept of zakaat to the community.

So the difference between sadaqaat & zakaat is this. Sadqaat stems from the individual in order to fulfil a right that is due to those who are needy. Zakaat stems from the community at large through its leaders to create an environment in which sadaqaat is no longer necessary.

Imraan

afridi220