Fish is haram 4 Quran Alone adept according to Sunni Cheikh

UmAlawi

Peace

I am considering asking the local "halal" butcher if I can visit the place where they get the meat from (presumably the slaughter-house direct), so I can check that they are not slaughtering the animals in a shrine dedicated to prophets/imams. Call me picky!! I just know it would gross me out though. I can't stand blood. Imagine the smell...! I think it would give me nightmares. I have not made my mind up about doing this yet. Insh'Allah, I will be guided to what is correct. I nearly had a panic attack when I had my wisdom tooth out though... yuck

I have seen far too much "Shirk" round here though - The "ring of shirk" as I call it, which is a piece of jewellery in this house with at least 2 other names next to the Name of Allah s.w.t and a necklace in dedication of one of "the 12 infallible imams", and another necklace with loads of other names on it along side the name of Allah s.w.t, and some prayer beads with different names on it... It's scary stuff! There is even something written in Arabic on one of the prayer mats. I do not know what it says so I always try to use the plain one, or fold the writing underneath.

Whenever I see these other names, I say
"Qul inama adu rabbi wa la ushrik bihi a hadha" from Qur'an 7220
Which I believe means
Say "I invoke my Sustainer alone, for I do not ascribe divinity to anyone beside Him."
And I try not to touch the artifices, unless I'm cleaning up and have to move them.

Well the main thing is Allah s w t knows what is in my heart, alhamdulillah.

I do wonder though if seeing a "certified Halal" sign is enough though. I mean, isn't this like blindly accepting that the sign is true and correct? Don't we have to use our eyes and hearing to check things if we are in doubt? How far do you go to check something out? Maybe there are levels of checking from 1 extreme to the other

1.Blindly eating whatever food you see
2.Eating any food as long as it is not pork (not worrying about the way the animal was killed)
3.Shopping at a store where you assume the meat is halal
4.Shopping at a store where you see a sign saying Halal
5.Shopping at a store where you can see a sign of Halal with a Certification
6.Asking the store owner if the sign is still in date/still valid
7.Asking the delivery people if they know about how the animals were killed
8.Phoning the Slaughterhouse to ask how it is done
9.Visiting the Slaughterhouse to see how it is done
10.Going to the slaughterhouse to do the slaughter yourself.

As we can see, it does go from one extreme to the other, bordering on Paranoia at the top extreme.

And I do believe we should take the middle way so somewhere around #5/6 is looking reasonable, although I think it is still important to know whether anyone else's name is mentioned at the time of slaughter or whether the animal is being sacrificed on idolatrous altars, but cannot think of how I would go about enquiring this. I can imagine the response already, "It's Halal Woman, what more do you need to know?!?!"

Ooh I know, I could buy some live chickens and keep them in the garden?!?! Problem solved!

Peace

Wakas

As far as I'm aware, most just play a tape recording whilst slaughtering is going on.

Layth

Salam,

Apparently, this same imam who was saying the "TIME OF SLAUGHTER" law also said today that we are not allowed to eat things with sharp teeth or claws and birds with hooked beaks or animals that eat meat and certain kinds of fish without scales, and these forbidden types of animals are also in the Qur'an but we could not find them. (examples such as SHARK, DONKEY and LION)

These restrictions are from the sunna/hadith and not from God's law. There were restrictions made for the Jews as a punishment for their transgression (6146), but that does not concern us.

The items you mentioned are all permissible (if you like that type of food).

16114 So eat from what God has provided you, that which is good and lawful, and be thankful for the blessing of God, if it is indeed He
whom you serve.
16115 He has only forbidden for you what is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to any other
than God. But whoever is forced to, without seeking disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiver, Merciful.
16116 And do not say, as to what your tongues falsely describe ?This is lawful, and that is forbidden;? that you seek to invent lies about
God. Those who invent lies about God will not succeed.
16117 A small enjoyment, and they will have a painful retribution.

UmAlawi

Peace

Thanks for your comments Brothers Wakas and Layth.

Interestingly, this possible LoopHole has turned up

AQ 593

There is no sin upon those who believe and do good works for what they eat if they are aware and believe and do good work, then they are aware and believe, then they are aware and do good; God loves the good doers.

"Eat" is translated in the present tense in all 5 translations on Quranix.com
however, on the emuslim word-for-word translation, it is showing in the past tense

"There is no sin on those
who believe and do good
deeds for what they ate
(in the past) if they (now)
fear Allah and believe
and do good deeds, then
fear Allah and believe,
then (again) fear Allah
and do good; and Allah
loves the good-doers"

which seems to make it less of a loophole / get out clause.

http//www.emuslim.com/wordforword/juz7/07-165-171.pdf

What do you make of this? Can it mean both past and present?

And speaking of past tense, in 6118 and 6119 is it "has been pronounced" or "was pronounced"

If it's "has been pronounced" then it seems logical that we have up until we eat it to pronounce it. (It would still be grammatically logical to say that "the name of Allah has been pronounced (by myself)"

If it's "was pronounced" on the other hand, then it seems as though it's referring to an event already happened i.e. the slaughter.

Layth

salam Wakas,

Can you clarify what exactly in the Arabic implies this? Is it the following

6118
So eat / fa kul - 2nd person plural masculine imperative verb
(is) mentioned / dhukira - 3rd person singular masculine passive perfect verb

Also, if we go by that logic, then is AQ implying the person slaughtering the animal would not be able to eat it? Unless I'm mistaken.

No. The indication that I refer to is given in 6121 with the word "lam"

la takulu mima LAM yuthkar ism allah alaih

This indicates that the act of mentioning God's name must be done in the past, before it ever reached the person who is about to eat it. Therefore, that dispells that notion that the name of God can simply be mentioned at any time after the animal is slaughtered to make it permisible.

Also, note that the issue of God's name mentioned at the slaughter is the only option that makes sence when we look at other verses that deal with what foods are lawful or unlawful

55 Today, the good things have been made lawful to you, and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you,
and your food is lawful for them;...

Had we simply been required to mention God's name at the time of eating, then there would be no need for the verse above which makes the food prepared by the people of the Book lawful for us - since mentioning the name of God upon slaughter is a command that would be contained in the Scriptures of old.

Also, if we consider the catch of the sea, fish are likely dead before we have a chance to mention/remember the name of God upon it. Similar to the situation when the hunting animals, e.g. dogs, catch our food, see 54.

The catch of the sea is given to us with no restrictions

596 Lawful for you is the catch of the sea, to eat it as enjoyment for you and for those who travel; and unlawful for you is the catch of
the land as long as you are under restriction; and be aware of God to whom you will be gathered.

As for what the trained animals catch for us, we are still required to mention God's name upon them as they are taken/collected (mention the name of God upon it)

54 They ask you what was made lawful to them, say ?All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs
and birds catch, you teach them from what God teaches you.? So eat from what they have captured for you and mention the name
of God upon it, and be aware of God. God is swift in reckoning.

morninglight

UmAlawi, this is not to intrude on your family or parenting matters. This is only to make you aware of possible consequence of strict vegetarian diet, that B-12 deficiency with dreadful effects could result.

UmAlawi

As far as I'm aware, most just play a tape recording whilst slaughtering is going on.

Peace Brother Wakas

"Most"? Where? in the UK or USA? Or Europe? What is your source of info for that pls?

I found this site
http//www.organic-halal-meat.com/article/stunning.php

The bit I read was mainly about stunning though.

UmAlawi

UmAlawi, this is not to intrude on your family or parenting matters. This is only to make you aware of possible consequence of strict vegetarian diet, that B-12 deficiency with dreadful effects could result.

Peace Morninglight
thanks very much for your feedback. Sorry to hear about your b12 deficiency. I am giving this subject careful consideration indeed. Inshallah you will get well soon, and the correct guidance will come to me if Allah wills so that my husband and I might agree on a suitable diet for ourselves and our kids. I do not much relish the propect of losing some of the blessings that Allah has bestowed on us in this life, in particular, roast chicken and beef lasagne.

himawansutanto

Hi all,

Fish is haram 4 Quran Alone adept according to Sunni Cheikh Salem Al Amry because of verse 53

Yusuf Ali translation
Forbidden to you (for food) are dead meat, blood the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than Allah, that which hath been killed by strangling, or by a violent blow, or by a headlong fall, or by being gored to death; that which hath been (partly) eaten by a wild animal; unless ye are able to slaughter it (in due form); that which is sacrificed on stone (altars); (forbidden) also is the division (of meat) by raffling with arrows that is impiety. This day have those who reject Faith given up all hope of your religion yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion. But if any is forced by hunger, with no inclination to transgression, Allah is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.

Please see and comment,
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS9S5uDpma4

Thanks

the fish is haram is non sense, he dont know how the hadits/sunna describe that the two blood is halal (fish and locust) . to understanding quran we must completed with hadits as describer of quran. If quranic view is neglected from hadits, the conclusion is meaningless.

crab - is halal said Atha' dan Imam Ahmad.( Al-Mughni 13/344 Ibnu Qudamah and Al-Muhalla 6/84 by Ibnu Hazm).
turtle - is halal as opinion of Abu Hurairah, Thawus, Muhammad bin Ali, Atha', Hasan Al-Bashri dan fuqaha' Madinah. (Al-Mushannaf (5/146) Ibnu Abi Syaibah , Al-Muhalla (6/84).
sea dog - also halal, as opinion of imam Malik, Syafe'i, Laits, Syai'bi dan Al-Auza'i (see Al-Mughni 13/346).

himawan

Wakas

peace UmAlawi,

Re 593
aim
3rd person plural masculine perfect verb, i.e. an action done/completed. I think it can be taken as the present perfect tense, hence the translations, but my grammar knowledge is not good. See M.Asad's note.

6118 and 6119 are in the perfect tense also.

Re recorded tape.
I either read or watched something about it. It was several years ago so do not recall the source. As far as I'm aware, it was most. Not saying it is wrong, I'm just saying that is what commonly happens as far as I know.

peace Layth,

Thanks for the clarification.

In 6121 the verb is imperfect tense, does that make any difference? Which is more accurate according to the Arabic

And do not eat of that which has not been mentioned God's name on it...
OR
And do not eat of that not mentioning God's name on it...

Also, it is in the passive form, meaning the subject is receiving the action expressed in the verb, i.e. whatever one is about to eat.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Layth,

This indicates that the act of mentioning God's name must be done in the past, before it ever reached the person who is about to eat it. Therefore, that dispells that notion that the name of God can simply be mentioned at any time after the animal is slaughtered to make it permisible.

Also, note that the issue of God's name mentioned at the slaughter is the only option that makes sence when we look at other verses that deal with what foods are lawful or unlawful

6145 Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except carrion, running blood, the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, or anything (not just meat) blasphemously dedicated to other than God." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Merciful.

6118 So eat from that on which God's name has been mentioned, if you indeed acknowledge His signs.

6119 Why should you not eat that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to? Many misguide by their desires without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

6121 Do not eat from what God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile. The devils inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you have set up partners.

Where do you see 'mention God's name on MEAT' in the above verses?
What happens if you want to eat a cucumber? Do you 'slaughter' it while mentioning God's name?
The thing is that we (each individual) have to mention God's name upon anything that we eat - not just meat. It is not for us to guess if someone else did it for us already.

@ himawansutanto

the fish is haram is non sense, he dont know how the hadits/sunna describe that the two blood is halal (fish and locust) . to understanding quran we must completed with hadits as describer of quran. If quranic view is neglected from hadits, the conclusion is meaningless.

6145 Say, "I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood poured forth, or the meat of pig, for it is foul; or what is corruptly dedicated to other than God." Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Compassionate.

6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.

opinion of Abu Hurairah, Thawus, Muhammad bin Ali, Atha', Hasan Al-Bashri dan fuqaha' Madinah. (Al-Mushannaf (5/146) Ibnu Abi Syaibah , Al-Muhalla (6/84).

Good for Abu Hurayra and his friends.

456 These are God's signs that we recite to you truthfully. In which Hadith other than GOD and His signs do they believe?

6112 We have permitted the enemies of every prophet, human and Jinn devils, to inspire in each other fancy words in order to deceive. Had your Lord willed, they would not have done it. You shall disregard them and their fabrications.

6113 That is so the hearts of those who do not acknowledge the Hereafter will listen to it, and they will accept it, and they will take of it what they will.

Layth

salam Progressive,

Where do you see 'mention God's name on MEAT' in the above verses?
What happens if you want to eat a cucumber? Do you 'slaughter' it while mentioning God's name?
The thing is that we (each individual) have to mention God's name upon anything that we eat - not just meat. It is not for us to guess if someone else did it for us already.

I have never heard this new line of thinking that the subject matter is not even meat!

So, going by this argument, the cucumber, since it is arriving "dead" to your table is forbidden by the law of 6145.

Here is another verse from sura 6 that will perhaps help you keep on track

6138 And they said ?These livestock and crops are reserved, and none shall eat from them except as we please,? by their claims; and
livestock whose backs are unlawful, and livestock over which they do not mention the name of God as an innovation against
Him. He will recompense them for what they invented.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Layth,

have never heard this new line of thinking that the subject matter is not even meat!

This indicates that the act of mentioning God's name must be done in the past, before it ever reached the person who is about to eat it. Therefore, that dispells that notion that the name of God can simply be mentioned at any time after the animal is slaughtered to make it permisible.

Also, note that the issue of God's name mentioned at the slaughter is the only option that makes sence when we look at other verses that deal with what foods are lawful or unlawful

So, going by this argument, the cucumber, since it is arriving "dead" to your table is forbidden by the law of 6145.

Carrion is prohibited, not dead vegetables (see 53). I don't think that many people eat things that are alive.

Here is another verse from sura 6 that will perhaps help you keep on track

6138 And they said These livestock and crops are reserved, and none shall eat from them except as we please, by their claims; and
livestock whose backs are unlawful, and livestock over which they do not mention the name of God as an innovation against
Him. He will recompense them for what they invented.

My point is that 6145, 618-19 and 621 don't talk about mentioning God's name on meat specifically, but on food in general. It says that we are not allowed to eat that on which God's name has not been mentioned (which is to be done by ourselves).

6119 Why should you not eat (anything, not just meat) that on which God's name has been mentioned, when He has sufficiently detailed to you what has been made forbidden; except what you are forced to? Many misguide by their desires without knowledge; your Lord is fully aware of the transgressors.

6121 Do not eat (anything, not just meat) from what God's name has not been mentioned, for it is vile. The devils inspire their supporters to argue with you; and if you obey them, then you have set up partners.

6145 Say, "I do not find in the revelations given to me any food that is prohibited for any eater except carrion, running blood, the meat of pigs, for it is contaminated, or anything (not just meat) blasphemously dedicated to other than God." If one is forced (to eat these), without being deliberate or malicious, then your Lord is Forgiver, Merciful.

These verses talk about eating food/mentioning God's name on food IN GENERAL, not just meat. That alone shows that mentioning God's name during slaughter is not necessary - it can/should be mentioned before eating.

Peace

Layth

Salam progressive,

Carrion is prohibited, not dead vegetables (see 53). I don't think that many people eat things that are alive.

Carrion? Interesting, I do not find that word anywhere in the Quran (the Arabic is "mayta" which is "that which is dead&quot - so, by that definiton alone, and using the same logic you used, it can be vegtable or meat or any other organic matter.

But, I guess since you now realize the problem that having anything other than animal in the subject matter will produce you will not be pushing this line of thought any further.

Peace.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Layth,

Salam progressive,

Carrion? Interesting, I do not find that word anywhere in the Quran (the Arabic is "mayta" which is "that which is dead&quot - so, by that definiton alone, and using the same logic you used, it can be vegtable or meat or any other organic matter.

Correct, and that is why we have 53 to clarify (giving a definition to "mayta&quot

53 Forbidden to you is what is already dead, and the blood, the meat of pig, and animals dedicated to other than God. The strangled, killed by a blow, fallen from height, gored, eaten by wild animals except what you managed to rescue, and those slaughtered on altars... Also what you divide through gambling. This is all vile. Today the ingrates have given up from your system, so do not revere them, but revere Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, completed My blessings upon you, and I have accepted peaceful surrenderas the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

54 They ask you what was made lawful to them, say, "All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs and birds catch; you teach them from what God teaches you." So eat from what they have captured for you and mention God's name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.

When dogs or birds catch/kill animals, we cannot (necessarily) mention God's name upon it, that's why we are instructed to do so afterwards.

Wakas

UmAlawi,

I just googled it, there are a few mentions of it here and there, e.g.

The other option to slaughter Halal chicken meat is mechanized slaughter. This slaughter is too fast for proper blessing. A solution postulated is to have a tape-recording of the slaughter blessing played while the chickens are slaughtered on the belt. This practice is questionable in terms of being permissible or Halal. Another controversy is the stunning of animals. This is done with a hammer, stun guns, etc. This practice is also not certain to be Halal.

Source.

Layth

Salam,

Correct, and that is why we have 53 to clarify (giving a definition to "mayta&quot

Good - we agree. And we use 6138 to clarify that the subjet matter is a living animal (and not a cucumber).

Now, knowing that the subject of 6121 is an animal, and knowing that the mention of God's name was done proceeding te arrival of the meat for eating, and knowng that in 6138 the rejecters slaughter animals without mentioning God's name as an innovation, then, I can conclude that the requirement to mention God's name is during the death of the animal and not afterwards.

54 They ask you what was made lawful to them, say, "All the good things have been made lawful for you, and what the trained dogs and birds catch; you teach them from what God teaches you." So eat from what they have captured for you and mention God's name upon it, and be aware of God. God is quick in reckoning.

When dogs or birds catch/kill animals, we cannot (necessarily) mention God's name upon it, that's why we are instructed to do so afterwards.

Sorry, but you have made 2 errors in your analysis above

Hunting with trained birds/dogs requires the person to be with these animals at the time of the hunt (you re not in a hut watching TV waiting forthetrained bird/dog to bring the catch to you), therefore, when they are launched (assuming they have damaged the prey) you are still able to retrieve the caught animal with life in it as the entire pocess fom capture to delivery might take seconds (while the death of an animal - if youve ever killed a sheep or chicken - takes a few mintues).
Please read verse 54 carefully, God does not use His words at random. It says 'trained and it says catch/caught. These are not wild dogs and birds who will rip out the throat of their prey, but are ones that have been trained to behave in a certain way. Also, we are told 'what they catch' and not 'what they kill', confirming my first point that these animals are still alive when they are retrieved.

Alen

Peace,
Respectfully.

You should visit London, especially Edgware Road, next to Marble Arch.
The Edgware Road is basically small version of Lebanon where sunnis pretend to be Muslims and sell alcohol, watch women's breats throught he smoke of sheesha and miss sunset prayers on purpose because they have to do business eat lots of shwarma lamb with chips (fries), smoke a lot, drink constantly due to big bellies and of course drive around in German cars.

They prohibit everything that local imam tells them and at the same time, they allow themselves what they inner-self orders, which they blindly obey in the nazi-style"Jawohll, My Fuhrer!!!!!"

Peace.

morninglight

Thank you very much for your kind wishes, UmAlawi.
I hope you and your family members will come to agreement that is good for all of you.

Jack

Salam Layth,

Nice to see you posting again. )

Why must dhikr mean "mention" in these verses? Could it not mean remember?

6121 mentions shaytan/devil as a contrast to dhikr, just like 591.

How do you understand 593, since it says we can eat any food as long as we believe and do good work? The usage of self-awareness/taqwa is very important here.