The difference between us and sunnis/shias
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Peace
I am also confused about this issue because problem everywhere is the same.
In addition to Quran
Sunnis/Shia use Ahadiths
Some Quranists use 19
Some Quranists use www.blablabla.com
Some Quranists use incscriptions
Some Quranists use Hadiths ul Lugha i.e dictionaries
No one is using PURE QURAN .
Everyone has his own reasons.
RegardBTW if you follow this view that no one follows the Quran right, why follow it?
dictionaries help people understand meanings of words, it doesn't mean it interprets the Quran.
Yes everyone has their own reasoning.. i guess it makes sense why you get judged individually.
Salam.
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I don't believe in "free" interpretation. interpretations need to be justified otherwise our understanding of Quran is meaningless.
Maybe interpretations should be backed up with some evidence, or even strong circumstantial evidence. In which case there cannot be free interpretation.
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After about a year of contemplating, I have come to the conclusion that the different between us and shias/sunnis is that we believe in the freedom of interpreting religion, while they don't.
In a discussion today my friend were discussing random topics in Islam. He claimed that hadith are infallible, the prophet was infallible, the imams that interpret hadith are infallible (because hadith are so clear and elaborating that there are no two sides), ect.
This discussion basically epitomized my experiences with devout sunni/shiias
I just stood there with my mouth open (allegorically).
Any thoughts?
First of all what we need to understand is that sunnism and shiism was a choice. The shites chose the infallibe Imam and blind following system whereas the sunnis chose independent reasoning and the consensus of community system. Two very distinct systems. When sunnism started out it was not such a closed system as it is today. These early muslims or sunnis used independent reasoning to shape their religion. The earliest concept of sunnah was that of a living process of interpretation. The concept was corrupted by Imam Shafi who believed that sunnah refers an ideal concept giving birth to the legitimacy of hadith(a particular interpretation of the earliest times) being binding on everyone which is prevelant today. So in short sunnah was and is a living process of interpretation based upon reasoning and agreed upon by consensus. What was wrong was to make a particular interpretation binding upon everyone. Interpretations shape religion but are subject to change with changing times and must be in total conformity with the Quran otherwise they become void. To make any particular interpretation divine and binding upon everyone is sheer stupidity.
There are three interpretative phases roughly the first one that is known as hadith interpretations and the second one that the salafis refer to and the third one that ends on the four generally accepted interpreters. After that new interpretations were nullified by a popular decree known as the closing of the gates of Ijtihad. So there are three types of sunnis today those who believe in the earliest interpretations (hadith) and those who believe in the salafi interpretations and those who believe in the four interpreters. Interpretations shape religion but it is a human activity and errors do happen. Hence the need to critically evaluate interpretations in order to see whether they are relevant to the time and are in total conformity with the Quran. Interpretations can never supersede the Quran but they have and that is what is wrong with our world today. When the gates of Ijtiahad were closed all hell broke loose. With no new interpretations forthcoming and relying solely on interpretations of a bygone era errors that were part of that time corrupted our religion and the corruption continues with no end in sight. When a new challenge comes forth to our people they look to the earliest interpretations for guidance rather than use their minds in conformity with the Quran.
I remember an article by Robert Fisk about how Muslims don't take care of their countries and would dump their garbage on their streets while their own houses are a source of envy to others. He wondered as to why that was. To me the answer was quite simple. When you take someones right to independent reasoning(Ijtihad) and ask him to follow 'blind following' this is what happens. I remember from a history book that a nun came from germany to spain in the days when the muslims were in power in spain. She could not conceal her amazement to the carefully lighted and paved streets. She recalled that her homeland Germany at that time was a mess dirty and unlighted at night. Back then the Christians followed 'blind following' of the pope and the result was that her country than and our countries now are all but the same. Europe made itself and arrived at the point it is today all by the virtue of the crusades they fought. It was through the Islamic civilization that Europe overcame its dark ages. For the crusades opened a new world of knowledge previously unknown to Europe. The best gift that the West received in trying to capture Jerusalem was the gift of knowledge that lead to Reformation and Renaissance in Europe. Sadly the Islamic world after that time devolved into its dark ages (with the closing of the gates of Independent reasoning) where emotions and not logic were the rulers of the day. And stuck we are in the dark ages awaiting the return of the light.
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Of course, everyone should use THEIR OWN reasoning, not someone else's reasoning. Or do you really mean that none should their own minds? What do you mean by "PURE QURAN"? A Quran that understood without reasoning? A Quran that is read like parrots?
Peace
Definitely use your mind and do not act stupid by removing Quranic Verses from the Quran.
19 er the worst possible Quran interpreters without mind and knowledge.
The proof is removal of Quranic verses.
Regards -
Peace
I am also confused about this issue because problem everywhere is the same.
In addition to Quran
Sunnis/Shia use Ahadiths
Some Quranists use 19
Some Quranists use www.blablabla.com
Some Quranists use incscriptions
Some Quranists use Hadiths ul Lugha i.e dictionaries
No one is using PURE QURAN .
Everyone has his own reasons.
RegardSo we are not to use resources which would help us understand the Quran better, granted that we do not add any teachings to it/set up partners to God?
Another one of your interesting fatwas. Those who dont understand arabic, some words, concept, etc. of the Quran cant use anything/anybody to help them understand...they have bad luck, I guess..
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Definitely use your mind and do not act stupid by removing Quranic Verses from the Quran.
19 er the worst possible Quran interpreters without mind and knowledge.Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is an ad hominem fallacy.
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Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think this is an ad hominem fallacy.
Do all 19ers accept in the removal of the two verses?
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Peace
Do all 19ers accept in the removal of the two verses?
I dont really like the word '19ers', to start off..
My point had nothing to do with removal of verses or anything like that. I just commented on the silly/ignorant posts by Q_s.
To answer your question according to us, nothing has been removed. Lets not go OT, though. You can discuss this in the Submitters/Code19 thread. offtopic laugh
peace
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Peace,
Pardon my ignorance
Exactly what are the two verses that they do not approve of and why. Could someone please mention the verses.
Asking questions is not ignorance. 9128 and 9129 are not approved of. You might want to research this issue bit on the i-net.
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Peace
I dont really like the word '19ers', to start off..
My point had nothing to do with removal of verses or anything like that. I just commented on the silly/ignorant posts by Q_s.
To answer your question according to us, nothing has been removed. Lets not go OT, though. You can discuss this in the Submitters/Code19 thread. offtopic laugh
peace
ok subbmitters. handshake Sorry if I sounded offensive.. I never meant any!
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ok subbmitters. handshake Sorry if I sounded offensive.. I never meant any!
If you mean 'submitters' as in International Submitters Union, then I am not addressed. If you mean 'submitters' as in 'muslim/submitter to God alone', then I feel addressed. No offense taken.
peace
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If you mean 'submitters' as in United Submitters Union, then I am not addressed. If you mean 'submitters' as in 'muslim/submitter to God alone', then I feel addressed. No offense taken.
peace
yes I agree we should choose our words VERY carefully.
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If you mean 'submitters' as in International Submitters Union, then I am not addressed. If you mean 'submitters' as in 'muslim/submitter to God alone', then I feel addressed. No offense taken.
peace
bravo I meant God aloners
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yes I agree we should choose our words VERY carefully.
I agree, especially in a forum where we have to use the typed word, and it's impossible to convey tone.
Sarcasm is effective, but is really hard to detect from the written word.
Is it possible for the admins to add an emoticon to indicate sarcasm? And for forum users to use it when appropriate (if it is added)?
That would prevent unnecessary misunderstanding.
Just my two cents,
Sarah
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Translation (Hilali & Muhsin)
It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book (and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Faraid (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)); and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding.
From this awesome principle of Allah , the Most High as constructed in His book , we can glean two points very easily
01- All Islamic laws, legislations , rituals , beliefs etc. which can be categorized under ?Usule Din? are clearly mentioned in the Quran . There are no chances of ambiguity ,short-comings , confusions or incompleteness in those verses . We certainly have no necessity to peep into other books apart from the Quran to know and understand them .
02- Those allegorical verses are not the foundation of Islam . We are told to believe them only, without arguing its multiple meanings which are not so clear .
In fact Shia and Sunni are the victims of the 02nd point here . They invented a series of Hadith books and Tafsir books to unveil those multiple meanings of the Quran and waged war against one another to shove them to swallow it . As a consequence due to Allah?s wrath they are divided into pieces and humiliated by the non-Muslims. More heartbreaking in the fact that they also refused to admit point no. 01 by propagating that the Quran is not clear at all on the basic beliefs of a Muslim . Hence they need some human-gods like Ahle Bayat or Sahbas etc. to explain them . According to Almighty Allah they are the doers of Fitnah on this earth (it is literary true when somebody sees a thousand years history of these two sects on their blood-shed activities in the name of Islam ).
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In a discussion today my friend were discussing random topics in Islam. He claimed that hadith are infallible, the prophet was infallible, the imams that interpret hadith are infallible (because hadith are so clear and elaborating that there are no two sides), ect.
You should suggest to your friend that he/she missed one statement..
"him/her self is also infallible"
Thus no point of arguing with such 'perfect' being.
Lakum Dienukum Walyadien..Salam / Peace
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After about a year of contemplating, I have come to the conclusion that the different between us and shias/sunnis is that we believe in the freedom of interpreting religion, while they don't.
In other words;
- we used our brains and they don't..
- we used logical thinking to spark the discussion while they uses fear and threat to spark the discussion.
Salam / Peace
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Peace,
Many Sunnis believe in the freedom of interpreting their religion as well, and so do many Shiites; this is not unique to "God Aloners". Also, who is the "us"/"they" you're referring to? Many of the so-called "Qur'aan Aloners" on here are no different than Sunnis and Shias. They claim that the Sunnis and Shias are misguided because they use the hadiyth and sunna writings, while Sunnis and Shias say the opposite of them. In reality, both views are wrong...
The Qur'aan condemns sectarian ideologies within Al Islaam. Sectarian ideologies are built on separation and critical judgement of opposing groups. As soon as "God Aloners" began pointing fingers at the sects of Islaam, claiming that their followers are not "real Muslims", they became a sect themselves, since they claim to be the only guided ones. This makes them just like the other sectarian groups of Islaam, which are rejected by Allah...
The main difference between the "Qur'aan Aloners", the "Sunnis", and the "Shias" is that they have different means of interpreting the scripture. Each group interprets the scripture in light of their own understanding. All of the groups, including the Sunnis and Shias, claim to serve Allah alone, ascribing no partners to Him. All claim to be the "real Muslims", all claim that Muhammad is the prophet and messenger of Allah (most say that he is the final prophet), all claim that they follow the Qur'aan in truthfulness, and all claim that the other groups are misguided. Therefore, all of them are sectarian.
Allah is the best judge,
Ahmad
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Peace,
Many Sunnis believe in the freedom of interpreting their religion as well, and so do many Shiites; this is not unique to "God Aloners". Also, who is the "us"/"they" you're referring to? Many of the so-called "Qur'aan Aloners" on here are no different than Sunnis and Shias. They claim that the Sunnis and Shias are misguided because they use the hadiyth and sunna writings, while Sunnis and Shias say the opposite of them. In reality, both views are wrong...
The Qur'aan condemns sectarian ideologies within Al Islaam. Sectarian ideologies are built on separation and critical judgement of opposing groups. As soon as "God Aloners" began pointing fingers at the sects of Islaam, claiming that their followers are not "real Muslims", they became a sect themselves, since they claim to be the only guided ones. This makes them just like the other sectarian groups of Islaam, which are rejected by Allah...
The main difference between the "Qur'aan Aloners", the "Sunnis", and the "Shias" is that they have different means of interpreting the scripture. Each group interprets the scripture in light of their own understanding. All of the groups, including the Sunnis and Shias, claim to serve Allah alone, ascribing no partners to Him. All claim to be the "real Muslims", all claim that Muhammad is the prophet and messenger of Allah (most say that he is the final prophet), all claim that they follow the Qur'aan in truthfulness, and all claim that the other groups are misguided. Therefore, all of them are sectarian.
Allah is the best judge,
Ahmad
Well said bro... each to his own, and lets not be quick to judge others. Leave that to God eh?