Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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Peace, my interpretation is not based on Hadith...It based on word by word translation.
Question, if God revealed to us the punishments of any crime, in your understanding, what are the revealed punishments for
Killing
Stealing
Zina(sorry about the typo... ;D)
I will answer for Nabstr
Killing punishment is Death
Stealing is Cut-Off hands
Zina is 100 lashesThere is no mentioning for Jail time in the Quran as a Punishment. If this is true, then what is the punishment for Thief? what is a Good punishment for Medoff who stole 50 Billion dollars?
Is it to get him a Job as Free.minds.org doctrine calls for????? What kind of Job that would make him make 50 Billion dollars? Is this the Joke of the century?ps - Yosemite, ask BelH, what happens if he steals another 50 billion and when his remaining hand is cut off and he has no more hands left, ask him what he will do if he steals another 50 billion. Then watch the reply. Enjoy.
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What kind of Job that would make him make 50 Billion dollars? Is this the Joke of the century?
He's definately got a point here. There's no job a person can get to repay a stolen 50 billion dollars, no matter how hard or how long they work. So, perhaps working to repay the money isn't the only alternative. There has to be another just punishment for this crime too, other than just getting a job...
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Hey belh salams
Some things I wanted to say.. you said if you ask any arab born speaking what does this ? ? mean, they will say ?cut hand? and you know what you?re 100% right and guess what I come from an Arabic speaking background!
You know why? because we all know qata3 is to cut and yad is the hand. So it makes sense for someone to say ok it means ?cut their hands? though you seem to be forgetting something really really important and that?s Contexts.
But let me give you a different insight, because of your sociocultural contexts your understanding of the word is ONLY physically cut. But if you know Arabic you will know it doesn?t mean just that.
Shall I give examples in different contexts? (seeming you come from arabic speaking background i'll assume you understand what i am saying)
How about qata3 el shakk b elyaqeen ? he removed all doubt with fact.
qata3 masafet 70km ? he travelled/passed the distance 70km
qat3an can also mean sure or certainty for example if i asked are you sure they got married "qat3an" can be a response
or absolutely like be el qat3.
What about qat3t elshere3 ? I crossed the road
Actually I just thought of something qat3 isn?t chop, and you seem to indicate chopping the hand off, chop is fa ra meem. Farum.
To iqta3 their hands you don?t need to physically cut/chop them off. It?s been explained before.
Anyway furthermore you say your interpretation is not based on hadith but word by word translation. So than do you believe one word means the exact same thing in every context in the whole world, or even in the whole quran?.
Whats your undestanding of verse 37?
BTW who on earth said free-minds is flawless? Free-minds is a social network where people share their thoughts and studies. Do you think any person is infallible? No one is! Not even your judgement based on word by word translations! Free-minds is a network of people with YOU included, so I guess there?s no point in trying to prove you as flawless.
Everyone is going to have differences of opinions, even the people who claim to follow the same creed same book same sheikh/scholar/person thing.
We all make mistakes do you think you or anyone in this world would be pure from sin/mistakes? If that?s the case maybe you should start rethinking things.
Belh the laws are in the Quran right you agree to this? The way you understand it might be different to how I understand it. The question is can you justify your standing? And how do you do that, and whether I can or not. Ultimately it?s not you who I need to please, not people on forums or any of that. To God is our return so if you want to pick on differences and imperfect ideologies you will die doing so.
Justify your reasoning if you think it?s right so be it, I or anyone else can?t change that thought. But we can debate what you disagree with if you choose to have an open mind about things and not be arrogant in your opinion. And this is how we learn through investigating and sharing thoughts because after all none of us are flawless.
Salam
(p.s taking a break be back in 2 weeks)
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He's definately got a point here. There's no job a person can get to repay a stolen 50 billion dollars, no matter how hard or how long they work. So, perhaps working to repay the money isn't the only alternative. There has to be another just punishment for this crime too, other than just getting a job...
How about one Million Dollar, which is the common stolen amounts this days...Can free-minds.org provide 1000000 Jobs that can make the more than 100,000.00 thieves earn 1 million each?
If you can, let me know may be I can claim that I'm a thief so I can get this job...even Nabstar would claim he is a thief as well rotfl
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so if someone steals and repents tough luck they get their hand chopped off?
if someone steals because they need food, tough luck?
what happens to someone who steals on going they have 2 hands chopped off already, then what? what happens next, should you chop them bit by bit till they become pieces?
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But let me give you a different insight, because of your sociocultural contexts your understanding of the word is ONLY physically cut. But if you know Arabic you will know it doesn?t mean just that.
Shall I give examples in different contexts? (seeming you come from arabic speaking background i'll assume you understand what i am saying)
How about qata3 el shakk b elyaqeen ? he removed all doubt with fact.
qata3 masafet 70km ? he travelled/passed the distance 70km
qat3an can also mean sure or certainty for example if i asked are you sure they got married "qat3an" can be a response
or absolutely like be el qat3.
What about qat3t elshere3 ? I crossed the road
Peace,
Thanks for sharing your inputs in a Good Manner.
I agree with you that we can use the word Qat3 with other words and we will have different meanings; however, when the word is used with words that refers to Physical things that can be cut, then it will only mean Cut; examplesCut the Apple
Cut the Watermelon
Cut the Dress
Cut the TreeActually I just thought of something qat3 isn?t chop, and you seem to indicate chopping the hand off, chop is fa ra meem. Farum.
This is not true; here is why
Ground Beef is Lahma Mafroma
Does that mean Chopped Beef?To iqta3 their hands you don?t need to physically cut/chop them off. It?s been explained before.
If you are referring to Free.minds.org explanation, which I'm arguing in this thread, then I disagree.
Anyway furthermore you say your interpretation is not based on hadith but word by word translation. So than do you believe one word means the exact same thing in every context in the whole world, or even in the whole quran?.
No I do not; here an example of a Word
Saa'l which means the following three meanings "Liquid" --- "Someone in Need"--- "Someone asking Question"
Whats your undestanding of verse 37?
Do not follow the non-well-established in meanings verses unless you go back to the well-established ones. (It is the Verses and not The words)
BTW who on earth said free-minds is flawless? Free-minds is a social network where people share their thoughts and studies. Do you think any person is infallible? No one is! Not even your judgement based on word by word translations! Free-minds is a network of people with YOU included, so I guess there?s no point in trying to prove you as flawless.
I'm criticizing their doctrine (their definition of what is the correct Islam) that is in their welcome Page.
Peace
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so if someone steals and repents tough luck they get their hand chopped off?
if someone steals because they need food, tough luck?
what happens to someone who steals on going they have 2 hands chopped off already, then what? what happens next, should you chop them bit by bit till they become pieces?
These were answered before; but if you want me to answer, I will do that tomorrow.
Good Night -
You said physical things means it has to be cut, well I said the road that is physical
Lahma mafrouma is ground meat yeh but in different contexts you can say ifroum eltifaha ? chop the apple
Actually you reminded me of something at the butcher if you want chopped meat they say lahma shu2of, I?m not sure if it translate to shuqaf or if that is just slangSo you just proved to yourself a word can have different meanings or multiple meanings. So I?d think you could understand why people derive different interpretations.
BTW I don't believe you?d use the words
(
) like that though I understand what you mean.
What is the ?doctrine? you disagree with? can you be specific. And if you're in disagreeance of following the Quran how they do? then how do you follow Quran and what makes it more right? serious question.
Sure I?d like to know what you think should be done to someone who steals all the time.
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So you just proved to yourself a word can have different meanings or multiple meanings. So I?d think you could understand why people derive different interpretations.
Yes, they can. A brief look at Lane's will confirm this. However, this is why we simply need to bring in other ayaat and confirm the meaning. Sunni tafseer, although they claim the greatest tafseer is 'tafseer al-quran bil-quran' (explaining the quran with the quran) almost never do this. If we take the punishment for theft in light of other ayaat, there is no way we can accept its meants cut both their hands.
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Yes abdalquran i know they can. although we can look at other ayaat, it's important to look at contexts as they can also mean different things.
i've never head of sunni's claiming to do or that tafseer alquran bilquran is greater. According to all schools of thought? nice... might be a nice discussion i could have with my bro's. do you know much else about it?
anyway it wouldn't make sense to chop off their hands, it's not like we're Wolverine and can heal/build new arms. what happens if you progressively sin/steal, the punishment would be void and illogical.
Anyway it's not like these 'rulings' get arbitrated maybe if you live in Saudi or something.
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JudgeYou are guilty of theft and your hand shall be cut off dude.
DefendantOh man that sucks for me coz I didnt do it, seriously.
ExecutionerShut up! Take this! (Censored)Sometime Later
LawyerAccording to newly found evidence my client is not guilty.
JudgeHmm ... you are right. Ok then so you are not guilty dude.
DefendantThank God. But wait, how about my chopped off hand?
JudgeWell, it is too late buddy. You should have presented the evidence before you got your hand chopped off.
DefendantGod dammit ...http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14406.msg129888#msg129888
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You said physical things means it has to be cut, well I said the road that is physical
Peace all,
Sarah, How can we cut the road into two pieces?
Lahma mafrouma is ground meat yeh but in different contexts you can say ifroum eltifaha ? chop the apple
Actually you reminded me of something at the butcher if you want chopped meat they say lahma shu2of, I?m not sure if it translate to shuqaf or if that is just slangIfroum eltifaha does not mean Chop the Apple; it means "squish the Apple" or "chop the Apple into tiny pieces" (like ground beef).
"shuqaf" is a slang arabic word (Lebanese word); The Arabic words would be "Lahama Makto3a".
So you just proved to yourself a word can have different meanings or multiple meanings. So I?d think you could understand why people derive different interpretations.
The word has different meanings based on the context in which is used...the same as English, French, Spanish.
What is the ?doctrine? you disagree with? can you be specific. And if you're in disagreeance of following the Quran how they do? then how do you follow Quran and what makes it more right? serious question.
My disagreements are listed in my first post in this thread.
I believe, as God says in Quran, that the Quran is written in Simple Arabic Words that are Precise in Meaning and cannot be Misleading; otherwise, that would be unjust, and to be one Nation, as God ordered us, would be impossible to accomplish.Sure I?d like to know what you think should be done to someone who steals all the time.
Here is a Quote from my previous answer to a similar Question
If He insists in stealing then, He would be among "those who seek corruption in the land". here is the punishments
The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533In our days, the Earth is divided between countries; thus we can not banish him from the Land by sending him to another country, rather, we can jail him instead (most smiler to banishing from the Land).
Peace
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JudgeYou are guilty of theft and your hand shall be cut off dude.
DefendantOh man that sucks for me coz I didnt do it, seriously.
ExecutionerShut up! Take this! (Censored)Sometime Later
LawyerAccording to newly found evidence my client is not guilty.
JudgeHmm ... you are right. Ok then so you are not guilty dude.
DefendantThank God. But wait, how about my chopped off hand?
JudgeWell, it is too late buddy. You should have presented the evidence before you got your hand chopped off.
DefendantGod dammit ...http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14406.msg129888#msg129888
Peace,
The above shows a Reckless judge who did not follow the rule of judging others using solid evidences that would leave "No Doubt " of his Guilt.As we all now, people whom put to Death due to being convicted in a murder crime can be proven innocents in the future...Does that Mean the Quranic punishment for murdering (sentenced Death) is not reasonable as well?
O you who believe, if a wicked person comes to you with any news, then you shall investigate it. Lest you harm a people out of ignorance, then you will become regretful over what you have done.
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Peace belH
can you refrain kindly refrain from force feeding your interpretations, and mind reading Allah.
You are not His spokesperson, and you are not receiving any wahy. your Arabic might be better than
others in this forum, but i for one dispute many of your interpretations which i find an insult to the Creator...
I told you already that the grammatical structure of the theft ayat implies that both hands of each male and female
have to be involved, so if you have a shred of logic left, it cannot be amputating all the hands.
Also the ayat never speaks about the feet, or crucifixion, so why do you bring in other ayat that speaks about these,
corruption in the land is another subject altogether.
Really, you are playing with the hell fire, or satan is giving you wahy, or you are testing people in free-minds (meaning
you are here for fitna, like guest)... -
Peace all,
but i for one dispute many of your interpretations which i find an insult to the Creator...
Examples please.
I told you already that the grammatical structure of the theft ayat implies that both hands of each male and female
have to be involved, so if you have a shred of logic left, it cannot be amputating all the hands.So, you know that the meaning is about cutting off hands and finding a Job for the thief.
Also the ayat never speaks about the feet, or crucifixion, so why do you bring in other ayat that speaks about these,
corruption in the land is another subject altogether.Someone who keeps stealing after cutting off his Hands (which I doubt that he would steal again, but I was challenged to answer) is committing corruption in the Land; Thus, He should be jailed.
Really, you are playing with the hell fire, or satan is giving you wahy, or you are testing people in free-minds (meaning
you are here for fitna, like guest)...All I'm delivering is a Clear word by word translation of the Quran. Does that equal to the act of delivering misleading and twisting translation of the Quran that a 6 years arabic speaker would not buy...Is what I'm saying equal to the saying of "Blind Man or woman should not Fast", or equal to "deleting two verses from Quran", or equal to "there is no Hajj to the Restricted House".
All I'm saying is "Follow Your Lord's Clear laws that are written in His Book" . If this what you call "Satan Wahy", then what is Not Satan Wahy?
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Peace belH
you are twisting my words regarding ayat on thieves, compare it to ayat on zina structure...
for the rest ijtihad involves making research and bouncing ideas, and making mistakes, and deciding on outcomes
within a group. since Allah does not see any group who deserves tamkeen fi alardhi, it will carry on like this...just be an observer, as i am... we are living in a big fitna...
this is the only forum i found where i can discuss what i want, this is why i am here, that does not mean i agree with everything, but i am open to other possibility, which means I am not stubborn...
now about thief punishment, if you cut his both hands (male), or if you cut her both hands (female) what's the lesson? and the purpose?
because this is meaning of the ayat...
otherwise it would have said aydiahum, not aydiahuma, do you understand?can you accept that maybe the grammar of our modern arabic is a bit different from that of the time of the Prophet as a fitna?
stop playing the idiot!!!!!!!! it does not suit you at all!!!!