symbolism of prophets
-
there's a view of the prophets, messengers such as they are not actual people but symbols, they represent something.
i'm not that familiar with that so i'd like to ask those with more knowledge to explain it more.2 questions basically
1.what is the symbolism there, what do they represent?
2.if they weren't real people, where did the revelations/messages come from? -
1.what is the symbolism there, what do they represent?
That would depend on the story.
Ibrahim, for example, symbolizes us reaching our full potential (imam/leader of mankind - 2124). This state keeps us away from the fire* (2169-70).How about a third option, that they may/may not be real people but we are to seek lessons from their stories (12110-111).
*2170 calls these people al khasireen, who are the hell-bound folk, if you look at 385 and 837.
-
well yes, that's what's curious about it, if they weren't real people... who brought those earlier revelations?
and yes, i agree that we're to take lessons from it, (as quran is not here to entertain us with random stories)... but what are these lesons? what does noah and flood represent, moses and faraoh, joseph and his lufe, jesus...
also, what is muhammad wasn't a real peron also? what could he represent?
-
I think it's incorrect to assume that they weren't real people, only symbols. Yes, we should learn from the stories recited about them in the Qur'aan, but the scripture also emphasizes the fact that they had fathers, wives, brothers and sisters, children, and friends... If the prophets were only symbols, or if they were only tales to teach us lessons, then couldn't ONE PROPHET be used for all these examples?
-
Quran seems to support both answers
12/111 the messengers are called 'ibratun li ulil albaab', lessons for the people of the core.
12/102 the stories are called 'anba al-ghaib' , stories of the unseen. So they were in fact real people who have been 'captured' in Quran as eternal lessons for mankind.
-
12/102 the stories are called 'anba al-ghaib' , stories of the unseen. So they were in fact real people who have been 'captured' in Quran as eternal lessons for mankind.
Why must the anba/stories be of real people, who existed?
Couldn't 'stories of the unseen' mean stories the messenger was unaware of, until the 'inspiration'? Since, he was not aware of it before wahi. This doesn't necessarily imply real events in "history".
If the prophets were only symbols, or if they were only tales to teach us lessons, then couldn't ONE PROPHET be used for all these examples?
One size doesn't fit all.
well yes, that's what's curious about it, if they weren't real people... who brought those earlier revelations?
and yes, i agree that we're to take lessons from it, (as quran is not here to entertain us with random stories)... but what are these lesons? what does noah and flood represent, moses and faraoh, joseph and his lufe, jesus...
also, what is muhammad wasn't a real peron also? what could he represent?
I wouldn't say, definitely, that they were not real people. No matter, they are 'stories of the unseen', and we ARE supposed to have iman/belief/trust in their existence (23). Taking the symbolic interpretation doesn't mean you ignore the literal story. There are aspects of the quran that are metaphorical/literal, and there are aspects that are both.
Denying of the God's signs yields to 'drowning' - 772. Now look at 250 and you'll understand 'parting of the sea'. Additionally, drowning is also one of the worst ways to die.
Moses' story
It's important to follow the right leader (this would be a messenger). Following the leader, without basis, is fallacious (appeal to authority). Under corrupt leadership/spouse, you can still believe (the magicians, and pharoah's wife). You can't believe at the last minute (1090). We have to stand up for what's right like Moses and Aaron did. 873 also talks about this. That even with the messenger present, and great signs from God the people still resort to meaningless idols (chapter 2). There are too many lessons in the Moses story.Muhammad
How many times is the name mentioned? Does this muhammad refer to the same muhammad of history? Correlation does not mean causation.
Joseph
You could be nothing and turn out to be a great leader. Might even suffer for a while (prison). People will lie to/about you, but Joseph didn't give up. He kept going. Perseverance. And, look what he became. It is shown in this story that our dreams symbolize the state of our subconscious. Psychology also teaches this. He used his God-given knowledge for good!
Jesus
You can be aware of the God's teachings from a young age. He was born of this knowledge (chapter 19). The messenger has no idea what his people will do after his death (5116-11.
-
Why must the anba/stories be of real people, who existed?
Couldn't 'stories of the unseen' mean stories the messenger was unaware of, until the 'inspiration'? Since, he was not aware of it before wahi. This doesn't necessarily imply real events in "history".
You're right about the word 'ghaib' but I'm kinda focused on the word 'naba'. 'Naba' implies something actually did happen, as per 49/6 for example. However, that's where it ends, the acknowledgement that something did happen. In order to witness those events, we must actually 'step into' the stories ourselves.
-
Peace Jack,
I understand your adaptation of this, but it's still not a reasonable conclusion. The Qur'aan says that there are other messengers sent by Allah who were not named in the scripture. How can we build an example from this? Also, other messengers are mentioned and nothing is specifically said about them (i.e. Uzaiyr, Dhul-Kifl, etc.). What can we say of them?
-
Peace all
Many people in this forum have great misconceptions as to what could be termed allegorical, symbolic or metaphorical in the Quran...
but for sure,
and I emphasize this, whenever It refers to beings who do things,
i.e. be they angels, jinns, humans they certainly are real and exist, and furthermore
when It labels them and gives them proper names like Mikaeel, Jibreel, Mohammed, Issa, Mussa etc,
they sure are referring to those very beings and those very stories they were involved in, nothing more, nothing less.
In fact the whole of life past, present and future can be seen as the The God's Book of Life, and Allah,
Who is not bound by time or space can take any Leaf / Leaves from that Book
and use it as an example to teach us Lessons (I just used a metaphor just now btw). -
Peace all
Many people in this forum have great misconceptions as to what could be termed allegorical, symbolic or metaphorical in the Quran...
but for sure,
and I emphasize this, whenever It refers to beings who do things,
i.e. be they angels, jinns, humans they certainly are real and exist, and furthermore
when It labels them and gives them proper names like Mikaeel, Jibreel, Mohammed, Issa, Mussa etc,
they sure are referring to those very beings and those very stories they were involved in, nothing more, nothing less.
In fact the whole of life past, present and future can be seen as the The God's Book of Life, and Allah,
Who is not bound by time or space can take any Leaf / Leaves from that Book
and use it as an example to teach us Lessons (I just used a metaphor just now btw).Having name as printed in your birth certificate is so human. Why God has to give the "Angels" names? Better still, why God needs name if Allah is a proper name according to your claim?
Mind you in etymology, cognates of Allah already existed in other Semitic languages prior to "Muhammad" era. Briefly speaking, /Lah/ 'God' with prefixed definite article al/the will simply give you "the God". We have to remember as well that the concept of God is not a new discovery during the "Muhammad" era. Hence it is said that the prefix "al" as in allah serve to explain this.
Alif-Lam = The definite article "al". It is equivalent to 'the' in English. In Arabic it is used to give the meaning of Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole and to denote comprehensiveness, that is to say all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades. It is also used to indicate something which has already been mentioned or a concept of which is present in the mind of the writer or reader.
Probably it's helpful to highlight once again what Jack wrote about muhammad.."Correlation does not imply causation"
Peace
-
Peace Phil
how about turning this 180 degrees. Doesn't Allah advise us to write contracts in the Quran, and will we not affix our names on them?
Didn't He say also that He taught Adam all the Names (I understand it as a potential ability to cognate and discriminate and classify)?
and didn't He also say that if we were to count all His blessings to us we would be lost for count?
I for one believe that every time we sleep, we keep on carrying on being inspired and programmed wither by The God or by Satan depending on our priming (and surely in matters of the Unseen it is wont to be far more complicated, as "... and they ask you of the Spirit, Say the Spirit is within God's command/control, and what you have been given of knowledge is but little..."
and as always Allah know best... -
Peace Phil
how about turning this 180 degrees. Doesn't Allah advise us to write contracts in the Quran, and will we not affix our names on them?
Didn't He say also that He taught Adam all the Names (I understand it as a potential ability to cognate and discriminate and classify)?
and didn't He also say that if we were to count all His blessings to us we would be lost for count?
I for one believe that every time we sleep, we keep on carrying on being inspired and programmed wither by The God or by Satan depending on our priming (and surely in matters of the Unseen it is wont to be far more complicated, as "... and they ask you of the Spirit, Say the Spirit is within God's command/control, and what you have been given of knowledge is but little..."
and as always Allah know best...I guess you did not turned the argument to 180 degrees, rather to 360.
Sorry as I can't see your point. My bad. Care to elaborate further? pr
Peace
-
ok perhaps they were real people, maybe some were real others not... i wanted to know that in the case certain msngrs weren't people, lets say jesus, if he wasn't real but a mere symbol, representing some human aspect or something... then who brought those revelations 2000years ago? you know...
i've heard many literal stories about prophets, reading on surface, and ok, if it was literal, that's fine, no problem.
but i'm not saying there weren't messengers before, there obviously were as they brought revelations, i am more interested in other views of it, deeper meaning beind it, the symbolism behind it..., also because we can see it in our daily lives, there's moses, jesus, joseph... and the rest even today...moses for example can be somebody who stands up against the pharaoh of today which would be the corrupt government... they throw fabricated magic at us (through media) but then we throw our stick (expose them with documentaries) and it eats the falsehood they put forward about 9/11...
plus, just because others were mentioned with them (brothers, mothers...), it could still be symbolics, kinda like dreams... in your dream you can see your relatives but it's not really them, they only represent something...
-
Bro Phil
Ask Allah for guidance and read the Quran... and do not rush...
360 would mean we are back where we started, just maybe a bit more tired PI guess you did not turned the argument to 180 degrees, rather to 360.
Sorry as I can't see your point. My bad. Care to elaborate further? pr
Peace
-
You're right about the word 'ghaib' but I'm kinda focused on the word 'naba'. 'Naba' implies something actually did happen, as per 49/6 for example. However, that's where it ends, the acknowledgement that something did happen. In order to witness those events, we must actually 'step into' the stories ourselves.
Nice reference. If you don't mind, how would you translate naba here?
Peace Jack,
I understand your adaptation of this, but it's still not a reasonable conclusion. The Qur'aan says that there are other messengers sent by Allah who were not named in the scripture. How can we build an example from this? Also, other messengers are mentioned and nothing is specifically said about them (i.e. Uzaiyr, Dhul-Kifl, etc.). What can we say of them?
Peace Ahmad Bilal,
Their stories weren't relevant to our guidance. The quran is a book of guidance, it can't contain every story, or it will be just way too long... There's a reason the God tells us about certain details, the way they are worded, and why -- IMHO.
If you view it differently -- that's fine. For the longest time I was adamantly against symbolism in these stories. But, I look at verses like 218. The metaphorical language of the quran is astounding.Peace all
Many people in this forum have great misconceptions as to what could be termed allegorical, symbolic or metaphorical in the Quran...Who are these people and why? Is it because they interpret the quran differently from you? Do you understand the trap you have just created?
226 The God does not shy away from citing the example of a mosquito, or anything above it.
Now tell me, is a mosquito mentioned elsewhere? What is the first story after this verse?
ok perhaps they were real people, maybe some were real others not... i wanted to know that in the case certain msngrs weren't people, lets say jesus, if he wasn't real but a mere symbol, representing some human aspect or something... then who brought those revelations 2000years ago? you know...
i've heard many literal stories about prophets, reading on surface, and ok, if it was literal, that's fine, no problem.
but i'm not saying there weren't messengers before, there obviously were as they brought revelations, i am more interested in other views of it, deeper meaning beind it, the symbolism behind it..., also because we can see it in our daily lives, there's moses, jesus, joseph... and the rest even today...moses for example can be somebody who stands up against the pharaoh of today which would be the corrupt government... they throw fabricated magic at us (through media) but then we throw our stick (expose them with documentaries) and it eats the falsehood they put forward about 9/11...
plus, just because others were mentioned with them (brothers, mothers...), it could still be symbolics, kinda like dreams... in your dream you can see your relatives but it's not really them, they only represent something...
I'd say they are are all 'real'. Might depend on your definition of real, of course.
Re Jesus
There's no evidence for his existence. Now, does this imply he didn't exist? I don't think so.
Just keep in mind 1736. It's something we could never verify. Who knows who wrote those revelations 2,000 years ago.The quran is about our stories, not their stories. The quran contains our zikr
2110 We have sent down to you a Book in which is your zikr/remembrance/mentioning (zikri-kum). Do you not understand?
-
Nice reference. If you don't mind, how would you translate naba here?
Well as I see it, naba is news of something which happened. The happening itself is called 'hadith'.
-
Well as I see it, naba is news of something which happened. The happening itself is called 'hadith'.
Thanks. Makes much sense. So, yes these are real events. 782 is also enlightening on naba.
Re Hadith
When you say, happening itself, do you mean it has already happened? I ask because of 881.
Some verses I came across in favor of my view
4356-57 - Moosa and son of maryam are parables/examples for later generations. Moosa knowingly embarks on this mission (2684).In addition, 4359 says that Isa is an example for the 'children of israel' (i.e. humanity).
4829 - Muhammad and his followers are parables for us. As are Ibrahim and his followers (604).
2124 show us that Ibrahim is an imam for mankind. Yet, 16120 says that he is a nation?/tribe/ummah (same root as imam), which just cannot be taken literally.
3927
We have put forth for mankind every kind of parable in this Quran, that they may take heed. -
Quran seems to support both answers
12/111 the messengers are called 'ibratun li ulil albaab', lessons for the people of the core.
12/102 the stories are called 'anba al-ghaib' , stories of the unseen. So they were in fact real people who have been 'captured' in Quran as eternal lessons for mankind.
Brother
PRobably you do not have the courage to put the whole aya and tranaslate it. Where the Messengers are called as "'ibratun li ulil albaab'?(111)
-
I'll rephrase the stories of the messengers (fee qisashim) are ibratun li ulil albab.