Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
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If you look at Turkish society even today, because of the Ottoman Empire the people are officially Sunni but their actual beliefs tend towards Alevism
You are totally misinformed. Most Turks (and in the past, Ottomans) are/were Sunnis. Alevis are considered a "minority". Alevis constitute about 15% to 20% of the Turkish population. Some Alevis, "Kizilbas" (Qizlbash) were very extreme and supported the Safavid Empire (Shi'ite Iranian) and were against the Ottomans.
The Ottomans were on the side of 'Islam' (I appreciate that many may disagree, but that was the justification used for their rule) and the nationalists were on the other side clearly opposed to the Ottomans and their natural secularist enemy. Although Turks today are proud of the Ottoman Empire as well as their secular Republic, nationalism was in fact the enemy of Ottomans in the last days of the Empire. The type of nationalism that eventually won out in Turkey was Kamal Ataturk's, but there were other types of nationalists at the same time as him.
It was for a reason, that Ataturk decided to do everything in his power to de-Islamify Turkey (e.g. replacing the Arabic abjad with the Roman alphabet so the people couldn't read the Qur'an, making religious orders illegal, banning all religious dress codes etc). That reason was the Ottomans' creed and entire basis of their rule was Islam, as the last Sunni caliphate. Mr Ataturk was anti-Islam because he was a nationalist.
What is "islamic" about Abjad?
Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and many more were of those who surrendered (muslims) (see 4213). Did they speak Arabic or use Abjad? Also see 3022 and 4144. What is "Islamic" about the traditional dress-code head-covers?
Also, I think you dont know some of Ataturks contributions he defended his country against Greek, British and French imperialists, who wanted to occupy his country and snatch some of the land of Turkey.
Also, it was a good step to remove the caliphate - he had to, since it was part of the Ottoman rule and through it the Ottomans got supporters from as far away as India to attack their own people, such as Ataturk and his supporters.
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In a case such as Bosnia there would not be any alternative.
I can't comment on the situation , as I don't know of the parameters leading up to the US helping out the bosnians. I do know of the ethnic cleansing etc. But, did the bosnians specifically ask for help? If so, It fits with the quranic view of eliminating oppression, as implied in 475.
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Peace,
You are totally misinformed. Most Turks (and in the past, Ottomans) are/were Sunnis. Alevis are considered a "minority".
Progressive, the poster "TheIndian" did not make this claim. Instead he claimed that Turkish culture has been influenced by certain elements of Alevi thinking.
As for Ataturk, he may have had good intentions for Turkey, and its true that he was a superb general. However, some of his policies in my opinion bordered on the extreme. The intense nationalism he played a part in creating has brought a modicum of stability to Turkey but has also played a large role in suppressing the rights of their large Kurdish communities.
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As for Ataturk, he may have had good intentions for Turkey, and its true that he was a superb general. However, some of his policies in my opinion bordered on the extreme. The intense nationalism he played a part in creating has brought a modicum of stability to Turkey but has also played a large role in suppressing the rights of their large Kurdish communities.
Unfortunately, Turks are the most nationalistic people in the world, even more so than the Iranians or the Chinese (who are also extremely nationalistic). "Turkishness" has replaced religion for some people, sad but true. I find nationalism such a Satanic ideology brickwall
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Unfortunately, Turks are the most nationalistic people in the world, even more so than the Iranians or the Chinese (who are also extremely nationalistic). "Turkishness" has replaced religion for some people, sad but true. I find nationalism such a Satanic ideology brickwall
It is a political move. (you know. Like communism).
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Peace everyone,
Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
The question can answer itself once we translate the word "islamic". The word "salam/" means "peace" and the derivative form "islam/" (weight ل means "peacemaking". Thus the question can be translated as
Were peacemaking Empires peaceful?
Of course the question becomes self-answering as YES. Unfortunately, the so-called Islamic empires were agressive and took the term Islamic as a meaningless label just like a thief who calls himself "Honest Joe".
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace everyone,
Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
The question can answer itself once we translate the word "islamic". The word "salam/" means "peace" and the derivative form "islam/" (weight ل means "peacemaking". Thus the question can be translated as
Were peacemaking Empires peaceful?
Of course the question becomes self-answering as YES. Unfortunately, the so-called Islamic empires were agressive and took the term Islamic as a meaningless label just like a thief who calls himself "Honest Joe".
Peace,
Ayman
Interesting.
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Peace everyone,
Were Islamic Empires peaceful?
The question can answer itself once we translate the word "islamic". The word "salam/" means "peace" and the derivative form "islam/" (weight ل means "peacemaking". Thus the question can be translated as
Were peacemaking Empires peaceful?
Of course the question becomes self-answering as YES. Unfortunately, the so-called Islamic empires were agressive and took the term Islamic as a meaningless label just like a thief who calls himself "Honest Joe".
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Well put. I don't believe they were peaceful but looked to extend an empire for tax purposes, money greed etc.
Peace
Hope
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Peace,
I think the consensus here is that the former "Islamic Empires" were merely Empires like any other empire in history with the same expansionist, brutal, and greedy tendencies as any other.
The only difference being that the rulers happened to identify as Muslims. And as we all know, identifying as a Muslim does not imply that you will act like a Muslim.
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Peace,
Progressive, the poster "TheIndian" did not make this claim. Instead he claimed that Turkish culture has been influenced by certain elements of Alevi thinking.
As for Ataturk, he may have had good intentions for Turkey, and its true that he was a superb general. However, some of his policies in my opinion bordered on the extreme. The intense nationalism he played a part in creating has brought a modicum of stability to Turkey but has also played a large role in suppressing the rights of their large Kurdish communities.
Peace.
Can you give some examples of how Alevi thinking has influenced Turkish culture? (I'm curious).I agree, I think he had good intentions. I remember reading that he said that people going to dead people's (I think specifically religious people's) graves and praying to them was not something a civilized nation would do, so that's why he said they shouldn't do it ... not for the obvious reason that it's shirk. So much of his reasoning/motivation was to have Turkey become more European and more "civilized". That's as far as I can understand from his biography...
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Recluse, what is your problem?
I understand from Quran that we should investigate things and have knowledge before making certain verdicts. In different topics you are making negatively biased verdicts and accusitions with no research. If you want to say something say it directly.
I'm so angry about this sick attitude. You throw the mud with no evidence, then accuse people with nationalism.
This is wrong, this is biased, this is evil.
I strongly protest.
(I also reported the entry above to moderators.)
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Peace,
Can you give some examples of how Alevi thinking has influenced Turkish culture? (I'm curious). Smiley
To be honest, I'm not familiar with the matter, it was a claim that TheIndian made.
But I've been to other countries where a country confesses to be Sunni but the influence of other Islamic traditions is visibly apparent. For example, in Egypt virtually every Muslim identifies as Sunni, but nonetheless you can see Fatimid and proto-Shia influences on many of their traditions. For example, Masjid Hussein (where it is reported that Imam Husseins head is buried) is a very popular masjid in Egypt, while shrines for various members of the Prophets family are visited by pious Egyptians everyday. This is on top of the huge Sufi festivals that occur throughout Egypt. I've actually witnessed Sufi's doing their "dance routines" in a few Egyptian masjids.
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Just rubbish baseless propoganda!
bravo
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I think so too, although I'm against Kemalism.
Selam
You maybe against Kemalism, thats ok, not everyone has to agree with it, and yes I believe some people have taken this nationalistic pride too far. However, you must understand that Attaturk had numerous enemies. I believe he rejected sunni Islam because of the rediculous hadiths and hearsays of the time. He challenged the fundementals of the Imam belief's of the time e.g. women not being able to work, not having rights etc... He seperated religion from government. I bet he was a Quranist ;D
Peace
Hope
Hope
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Some people here are wondering why I made the comment about Turkish Islam being strongly influenced by Alevism.
The reason is this Turkish Islam was heavily influenced by Turkomen Babas from Khorasan. In modern Turkey, even though the majority of the people identify their Islam as Sunni (and the reason for this is the legacy of the Ottoman Caliphate more than anything else) during Ashura they will mourn Imam Hussayn and his sacrifice at Karbala. This more than anything recalls very old Shia fundamentals. The Turks also ascribe less importance to congregational mosque worship than others, and have more of a belief in saints, visiting gravesites for 'pilgrimage' (a la Alevi). Regarding the Ottoman Empire, this Empire set itself in opposition to the Shia Safavids of Iran, and for this reason proclaimed its own propaganda as heralding the cause of Sunni Islam. However many holders of high office in the Ottomans were members of Alevi-style sufi sects, and the military strength of the Ottomans was purely Alevi/Bektashi.
I learned about Islamic history at SOAS, and still have a lot of information and sources about Turkish Islam and its affinity to Alevism in its unique character. Turkish Islam is a very different kind of thing in practise from what we know as Sunni Islam today. If anyone wants more info or to discuss this topic in more depth, that's fine. However I'm not going further into the Kemalist Nationalist vs Ottoman debate as that will lead nowhere.
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Some people here are wondering why I made the comment about Turkish Islam being strongly influenced by Alevism.
The reason is this Turkish Islam was heavily influenced by Turkomen Babas from Khorasan. In modern Turkey, even though the majority of the people identify their Islam as Sunni (and the reason for this is the legacy of the Ottoman Caliphate more than anything else) during Ashura they will mourn Imam Hussayn and his sacrifice at Karbala. This more than anything recalls very old Shia fundamentals. The Turks also ascribe less importance to congregational mosque worship than others, and have more of a belief in saints, visiting gravesites for 'pilgrimage' (a la Alevi).
There are 15-20% Alevis in Turkey and also quite a few Sufis (many of them being Bektashias, who are related to the Alevis), so visiting "saints'" graves and other things you mentioned is very likely to be happening. Furthermore, Turkey is a secular republic and many people don't attend the Friday congragational prayer very frequently.
Regarding the Ottoman Empire, this Empire set itself in opposition to the Shia Safavids of Iran, and for this reason proclaimed its own propaganda as heralding the cause of Sunni Islam. However many holders of high office in the Ottomans were members of Alevi-style sufi sects, and the military strength of the Ottomans was purely Alevi/Bektashi.
You seem to be not very familiar with history, or at least Ottoman/Turkish history. The Ottomans had Janissaires (the Sultan's elite troop made up of converts) - since they were converts, they werent very strict when it came to religion so they became Bekstashi Sufis (related to Alevis). These were the Janissaries, not the actual/main army. The high government positions were held by Sunnis and also people who were recruited from the Ottoman "millet system", where young Christians boys were converted to Islam and got raised in an "Islamic" way. They then either became Viziers or part of the Janissary corps. Local rulers, especially towards the end of the Ottoman Empire were locals, such as Arabs. However, the majority of government officials were Sunnis/Turks.
I learned about Islamic history at SOAS, and still have a lot of information and sources about Turkish Islam and its affinity to Alevism in its unique character. Turkish Islam is a very different kind of thing in practise from what we know as Sunni Islam today.
Perhaps because Turkey is a secular state and there are 15-20% Alevis? There are also quite a few Christians and Arabs, fyi.