A Challenge to all Arab Linguists arround the Globe

progod

Badar,

I'm sorry Badar. I thought we were just talking about the word itself and not the direct or indirect object that is attached to it. Ok, so the haa. . . (I had to look at http//www.islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/80_114/96_14-19.htm) to see and remember exactly what we are talking about). As you alread know it has a dammah on it and is pronounced 'hu.'

So, the ha refers to 'him.' It could be 'it' or 'him'. It depends on the context. From the context of Surah 96, ayaats 9 through 10 answer who the 'he' is.

Seest thou one who forbids-
A votary when he (turns) to pray?
Seest thou if he is on (the road of) Guidance?-
Or enjoins Righteousness?
Seest thou if he denies (Truth) and turns away?
Knoweth he not that Allah doth see?
Let him beware! If he desist not, We will drag him by the forelock,-
A lying, sinful forelock!
Then, let him call (for help) to his council (of comrades)
We will call on the angels of punishment (to deal with him)!
Nay, heed him not . . .

There are two issues I want to deal with here. In 9619, this is a negative command form. It follows all the rules of subjunctive/jussive form that is used with the past tense marker 'lam'. So if you say 'don't say!' to one male individual (Masculine, singular) ' it becomes Instead of 'you/she don't/doesn't say/you/she are/is not saying/you/she are/is not to say' which is (And just to make the picture complete), 'You/she might/may/would not say is

So we are now aware that

The form of taw, waw, 'ain, being used in 9619 is a negative command form, which corresponds to the subjunctive/jussive form used with the past tense maker 'lam'.
The 'hu' used that is attached to the word in question is referring to the masuline person referred to in 969-10. (Also be aware that this is using masculine singular but the example can be extrapolated to groups and to females. In Arabic if you say 'anyone' you will most probably be using a masculine singular form but this does not rule out the groups or females who might be engaged in the same activity you are talking about.'

I'll stop here and let you ask any more questions you feel you need to ask.

Godbless,
Anwar

bkanwar2

Dear Anwar, thanks again for a detailed answer. Let me ask you this, if am understanding this part of 9619 as "As a matter of fact, not be, who is in a state of submission ". Do you see any problem with it?

Badar

progod

Peace,

Yes I do see a problem.

Emphatic no. Like saying 'Heck no! or NOOO!', maybe 'No way!' even.

Do not obey him/it.

You could imply that 'do not obey' means 'do not submit to'. And these phrases are somewhat synonymous. But that is not what the verse is saying, nor what the words mean.

Godbless,
Anwar

kn

Peace,

Yes I do see a problem.

Emphatic no. Like saying 'Heck no! or NOOO!', maybe 'No way!' even.

Do not obey him/it.

You could imply that 'do not obey' means 'do not submit to'. And these phrases are somewhat synonymous. But that is not what the verse is saying, nor what the words mean.

Godbless,
Anwar

But I dont get the point, that if it means as stated above, by you or Badar ( Both saying the same thing ), then how we can assume that this is not what the verse is saying. I am getting confused. I thought that the verse should mean to say what ever is actually written and not what others may say or think.

progod

Peace,

Kn, I wrote what is written. It says 'No. Do not obey him.'

Godbless,
Anwar

bkanwar2

Dear Anwer, you are now ignoring the first Taa in the word. This Taa you initially thought to be as prefixed pronoun. Once pointed out the presence of last Haa with Dumma. We actually realized the pronoun is suffixed Haa. What is this first Taa indicating? There would be no sense to have a affixed and suffixed pronouns both, would it? has several meanings, not just always emphatic no but in a context "as a matter of fact" or "in reality" are also been described its meanings.

Furthermore, the example you are giving above This appears more consistent with Vth form of verb, although not exact either. Certainly not IV form, you were indicating initially.

Badar

Mazhar

".

Who is "that person" whose words should not be listened and accepted?

"Have you noticed that one man who advises/asks/forbids a man/allegiant when he says prayers".

The word of this man is not to be accepted and instead that act be performed which he is forbidding which is a source of getting nearer to the Lord.

progod

Peace,

You should really study Arabic some more Badar, from a book that is. I don't mean that to insult you. But this is not a challenge for Arabic linguists around the globe but more like a challenge for you to try to understand what is going on with Arabic and its words. I think if you picked up a few basic Arabic books and focused on conjugation, this would not be so difficult for you. Then those of us here who know could confirm or correct your understanding. I guess that is what is going on here, but I think you went about obtaining these lessons in a dishonest way. ANd you are attempting to act as if we are learning together, when you are the only one who is learning here. (You might be able to say I am learning both patience and how to explain Arabic grammar to you here. But that's it.) So, in the spirit of learning here's what you are having dificulty trying to understand so far

In Arabic the pronoun can be expressed internally within the word. You do not have to say it before the verb. So the first pronoun that is included within the word through the use of the prefixed taa' is the subject. It is 'anta' but can be expressed within the verb internally (in linguistic terms this is called synthetic structure if i remember right). The second pronoun (hu) at the end is referring to the direct object. So there are 2 pronouns in this word, just in case that was confusing you.

= you/she (the subject)

= the condensed root Taa'a (Taw, alif/waw, 'ain) of the word within the context of the subjunctive/jussive and present tense of form IV or Af'ala, expressing obedience.

= Him (the direct object)

Pls continue to ask more questions if you need to, but plain old, honest study can only put all the pieces together for you so you don't continue to have trouble with Arabic words.

What we have with is the negative command form form with a direct object at the end. This however could also be saying 'May you/she not obey him.' From context it is more obviously 'you' and not 'she.'

Godbless,
Anwar

bkanwar2

Dear Anwar, thanks again for your reply and patience with an ignorant like me. But what you have said so far about grammatical break down. It only changes this part of 9619 from my original "as a matter of fact, not be, who is in a state of submission " to this " not at all be one who is in state of submission/submitting" or if one were to be more explicit "not at all you be him (who) is submitting/ in submission".. Although, with this translation one is ignoring Laa that follows after, Kalla.

Badar

progod

Peace,

Dear Anwar, thanks again for your reply and patience with an ignorant like me. But what you have said so far about grammatical break down. It only changes this part of 9619 from my original "as a matter of fact, not be, who is in a state of submission " to this " not at all be one who is in state of submission/submitting" or if one were to be more explicit "not at all you be him (who) is submitting/ in submission".. Although, with this translation one is ignoring Laa that follows after, Kalla.

Badar

There is nothing wrong with not knowing, as long as you know you do not know and try to learn. I applaud you for trying to learn. I also would not try translating with such a limited knowledge of Arabic. I"m not sure why you need to use the word 'submit' but as you know, that word is not there. Obey and submit have similar connotations but they are not the same word. I also do not know where you are getting the 'not at all'. Why can you not accept the more accurate translation of 'Do not obey him' ?

Godbless,
Anwar

bkanwar2

Dear Anwer, thanks again. Here is relavant page of Lane's lexicon for your review. This will help you to understand meanings of as submission, as well first concept given.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000176.pdf

In my humble opinion, it is more important to understand the correct meanings and concepts of words of AlKitab, than intricacies of Arabic grammar. In fact the point of this exercise was to bring this very point out to wider audiences.

On the note of reciprocity of learning. Please consider and try to understand this. The word is actually . Please try to find out how come?

Peace.

Badar

Mazhar

The occurrences of the word my be helpful.

{refer 1828]

And for "third person" it is

bkanwar2

If one were to understand that is not a proper name. Instead it represents a phrase consisting of as a contraction of followed by and finally , rest becomes much easier to understand. Would be translated in English (One) who is not illah (God, illah, a proper name of Pagan Arab God).

Badar

progod

Dear Anwer, thanks again. Here is relavant page of Lane's lexicon for your review. This will help you to understand meanings of as submission, as well first concept given.

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000176.pdf

In my humble opinion, it is more important to understand the correct meanings and concepts of words of AlKitab, than intricacies of Arabic grammar. In fact the point of this exercise was to bring this very point out to wider audiences.

On the note of reciprocity of learning. Please consider and try to understand this. The word is actually . Please try to find out how come?

Peace.

Thanks for the reference to Lane's. I didn't know it could be directly translated as to become submissive as well. I mean it's not far off from 'being obedient' and some of those sources prefer obedience to orders than obedience in character. But I guess both can be implied, and that is fine. But you see the meaning of obedience there as well, so I hope you are not trying to pick one meaning over another. Both are correct meanings of this word used in the Quran. The intracacies of Arabic grammar will help you to understand the Quran better you cannot make a choice of either or. You need it all. I'm not sure what you think you were trying to put out to a wider audience, but whatever, I don't even want to get into that.

Also what is the connection you are trying to make between and ? I haven't found the second one in the dictionary yet. I'll look harder. The only thing I can think of is waw, dal, 'ain. So if you said 'Do not let/ Do not deposit, Do not leave off, Do not cease/skip/omit.' You would say . But again what are you trying to get at?

Godbless,
Anwar

Badar

Mazhar

The said, ?We have listened, and we have refused to accept? {Refer 293}

And they say, ?We have listened, and we have refused to accept? {Refer 446}

And they said, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 2285}

And if they had said, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 446}

When you said, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 507}

That they respond/say, ?We have listened, and we have accepted? {Refer 2451}

And you people listen and you people accept ? {Refer 6416}

The basic perception is to accept what is told. This is to believe in what is told. It is accepting it as true when some thing is told. Those who accept respond by expressing their acceptance or by the nod of head in affirmative. And those who do not accept what is told, they either refuse bluntly, or express their non acceptance by just turning away and departure.

You, the Messenger pronounce, ?You people accept the word of Allah and the Messenger.

For reason {gesture of refusal] you people turn away, in such case indeed Allah does not like those who refuse to accept .{Refer 332}

Whosoever listened and accepted the word of the Messenger, for reason {He is communicating nothing but word of Allah} he certainly accepted word of Allah.

And whoever turned away since We have not sent you as a guard upon them.{Refer 480}

Root of is and basic perception is to accept something wholeheartedly, by will without any external pressure/force/fear/compulsion.

{Refer 238}
comes after it, to follow exactly in the manner told, without there being interference from third party. Nothing should be in between what is being followed. To physically move, on footprints, act exactly on the line accepted. One has a theoretical aspect while the other has practical aspect/connotation. It means translating into action what was accepted.

For Urdu speaking friends, here is a 21 page complete article.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/book_6/21/slides/1.html

bkanwar2

Dear Anwer, In classic Arabic and Dal are interchangable. Hence, 9619 I am understanding as

Surah 96 19
As a matter of fact, do not be, with those who are in a state of subjugation and lowly; by lowering heads (in subservience) and because of this getting scarce and limited, with respect of means and resources, from me.

However, and have similar meanings, hence the question if is actualy IV form of with written in place of . Anyhow for now I have used root until more confimation of this principle.

I have almost finished translating Sura 96, will share soon, then 9619 will make more sense.

Peace.

Badar

bkanwar2

Dear Brother Anwer, I would like to thank you again for your participation in the discussion. It is also my request to you; that if you were to join hands with us in the cause of enhancing understanding of AlKitab. It would be a great pleasure as well a tremandous help.

Peace, may Rubb bless you.

Badar

progod

Dear Anwer, In classic Arabic and Dal are interchangable.

And where did you get this idea from?

It is also my request to you; that if you were to join hands with us in the cause of enhancing understanding of AlKitab. It would be a great pleasure as well a tremandous help.

Peace, may Rubb bless you.

I hope I have been doing that, am doing that now and continue to do it. May our lord also bless you as well.

Godbless,
Anwar

Q_student

And where did you get this idea from?

I hope I have been doing that, am doing that now and continue to do it. May our lord also bless you as well.

Godbless,
Anwar

Anwer
It is a very strange thing that a person who knows arabic (Probably the only person on this forum who knows some arabic) is involved in such a ???? type of discussion ?
Regards

bkanwar2

And where did you get this idea from?

Dear Anwer, from here,

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume3/00000005.pdf

as well please see here

http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume5/00000104.pdf

Please just review description of Dal and Tay as alphabets.

Peace and Rubb bless you and all.

Badar