None in the worlds was homosexual before Lut's people?
-
Thanks for responding this time. ;D
Its not I who's doing the dodging, but you.
What have I dodged?
I have quoted 4 eminent translators to prove my point.
That'd be an appeal to popularity logical fallacy. If you are interested in the popular view, there's always the religion you call islam.
The Quran conveniently claims that its free of error & challenges unbelievers to find errors,yet when stories run counter to science & history, then we have to stop caring?
Who said 'we have to stop caring'? The quran wants us to focus on the LESSONS.
Sorry 'history' is full of conjecture and bias. The quran is explicitly against guesswork. So, why in the world would I go this route, in trying to understand the stories? How is it going to guide me in anyway? The quran is a book of GUIDANCE. Not a book of science. Not a book of history. It's simply learning how the quran uses its words, since this is the only objective way of understanding its meanings/message. I would do the same with any other book.Oh sure, the Quran wants us to avoid taking it literally at times, coz then errors would be obvious!
Nice Straw man.
Your place-of-residence is built from straws, isn't it?
-
Many of human attributes is also found amongst animals of all races & nations-we are animals after all, albeit intelligent animals.
Thus, if animals have rape, humans do as well.
All other sorts of animals behavior like masturbation, oral sex etc are found in animals, difficult to believe that somehow only this one behavior was absolutely absent amongst humans.
Sorry, I am not with you in your "we", I am distinct, a human being, the honoured and elevated one by Allah for whom everything including your "we" was created. Many many things are difficult so long one does not have the complete information/knowledge about it.
-
Excellent! Thanks.
"AAalameena means creations/beings."
As I showed, other creatures apart from humansare "homosexual". ;D
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
So Allah wasn't aware or had forgotten of the homosexual creatures he'd created. D
Thank you again Wakas, really appreciated your help in showing how Allah had created homosexual beings & creations he'd forgotten about.
First of all, it was Lut who said it, and it is written from his perspective. AQ is full of these expressions, e.g. I am the first to submit, saw it setting in a lake etc. The English language has hundreds, perhaps thousands of them, used daily. They must be understood in context.
And last but not least, did the animals you refer to do what Lut's people did who have free-choice? Is it the same level of "sin"? etc. Evidence please.
I am still waiting for your strongest list of objections to The Quran. When you begin such a thread, pm me, so I dont miss it.
-
Yeah, I don't want to read Arabic, for whatever reason, & I know that you love to play the race card. You don't know thousands of languages in the world either.
RACE CARD?! Omg...Lol.
Asking you to read a text in its original language is RACIST? However, saying Muslims are this and that is NOT? What bizarro world do you come from again? Listen Fawzia, I know you think it's really cool to be above religion and all, but you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. If you don't want to study Arabic or any language, fine. That just simply excludes your opinion from being credible.
Even without before you, the statement is this
780
And Lot, he said to his people "Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done?"This is again, an example of time & as I showed, homosexuality exists amongst animals as well.
And I have read multiple translations of the Quran, like Pickthall etc, all denote the sense of time.
Since you believe in Genuine Scholarship (the same way Reverend King believes in Apartheid), that means you need to now check whether my assertions or these translations are correct. Don't be afraid to do the groundwork or you'll be nothing be deranged ranter. I'll translate it for you word for word
Walootan And Luth
ith qala liqawmihi When he said to his people
ata/toona alfahishata Do you bring about the injustice
ma sabaqakum biha not outstripped by
min ahadin from any
mina alAAalameena from the worldsIt's great that you're an animal lover but the word here is FAHISHA or injustice so here animals (who are all submissive to God) are EXCLUDED.
Furthermore, Lut's ppl are guilty of waylaying people and actual forced sex so your animal kingdom crap is again excluded. Learn to read carefully Fawzia, it helps.Now go check with your translators and lets see where the 'from before' is, lol.
If Arabic is so neccessary to understand the Quran, then perhaps Allah had better said that Islam should be restricted to the Arabs, & forbidden Muslims from proselytizing other non Arabs, if Islam intended to be a global faith, then it better be capable of translation too.
It IS capable of translation but who's disputing that? You're peddling the usual haters rant of 'you guys hide behind Arabic'. I'm not saying don't translate the Quran. I'm challenging YOUR translations. Now you, a practitionar of 'genuine scholarship' , should understand that if YOU don't know the language, then you really can't decide who is right or wrong.
Question Why do you automatically stand with these translators? Don't run from answering, ok.
-
Welcome Fawzia.
Actually, by my estimates, Abraham and Lot would have been 4,600-4,700 years ago at least.
So, if you have evidence that homosexuality was a rampant behaviour like the people of Lot engaged in, prior to Lot, then you are correct and the Quran is wrong.
Different people have extremely different estimates about the time of Abraham & Lot's birth, & of course about their historicity itself.
We are not helped exactly by stories which claim that these Biblical folks lived hundreds of years!
This site says that Abraham was born between 2000 & 1500 B.C.,so the Egyptian couple would be older than them.
http//www.answers.com/topic/abrahamAnyway, even if I accept your estimates, this book says that in Mesopotemia, references to homosexuality occur from the third millennium BC-that is, from 5000 years ago. This is even older than your estimates.
http//books.google.co.in/books?id=lbmXsaTGNKUC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=homosexuality+ancient+mesopotamia&source=bl&ots=dr4P5hNTtk&sig=iB4bno4rY5qKbGDvHDZonzreBAA&hl=en&ei=TtrySuCLBIzAsgOd2I0Q&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBQ
So are we to conclude that I am correct & the Quran is wrong? D
-
Thanks for responding this time. ;D
What have I dodged?
That'd be an appeal to popularity logical fallacy. If you are interested in the popular view, there's always the religion you call islam.
Who said 'we have to stop caring'? The quran wants us to focus on the LESSONS.
Sorry 'history' is full of conjecture and bias. The quran is explicitly against guesswork. So, why in the world would I go this route, in trying to understand the stories? How is it going to guide me in anyway? The quran is a book of GUIDANCE. Not a book of science. Not a book of history. It's simply learning how the quran uses its words, since this is the only objective way of understanding its meanings/message. I would do the same with any other book.Nice Straw man.
Your place-of-residence is built from straws, isn't it?
No Jack, my place of residence is built from historical, scientific etc analysis, not only a supposed Creator written book.
The Quran makes the claim of being dictated, word for word, surah for surah by the Creator of the Universe via Jibreel to Muhammad. Its not the only book on offer to make this unusual claim-there are multiple such books in many of the languages of the world.
Many of these books have extremely good moral lessons-a book like Neale Donald Walsh's, "Conversations with God," too makes the claim of being dictated to him via God.
There's no reason to accept the Quran as any God authored book if it lacks historical accuracy. Its moral
guidance is often of extremely dubious distinction, & its an opinion of may people that Quran makes no moral improvement(re Sebastian Faulks recently).Sure there are some eternally valid moral principles, & loads of stuff which are unacceptable to people today-any ancient book has some eternal & some limited moral guidance, surely not all are written by the Creator.
So the guidance of the Quran isn't very valid if it shows ignorance of history.
-
Sorry, I am not with you in your "we", I am distinct, a human being, the honoured and elevated one by Allah for whom everything including your "we" was created. Many many things are difficult so long one does not have the complete information/knowledge about it.
Sure, don't be with me. Believe whatever you want about yourself.
However, your extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence.
Oral sex, anal sex, masturbation, homosexuality etc have been observed amongst both humans & animals since time immemorial, if you claim that it was only homosexuality amongst humans which was a distinct invention of Lut's folks, you need to bring forth evidence for your extra ordinary claim-& the Quran alone is no evidence as they're many other religions in the world, all claiming to be written by God & all replete with extra ordinary stories.
-
First of all, it was Lut who said it, and it is written from his perspective. AQ is full of these expressions, e.g. I am the first to submit, saw it setting in a lake etc. The English language has hundreds, perhaps thousands of them, used daily. They must be understood in context.
And last but not least, did the animals you refer to do what Lut's people did who have free-choice? Is it the same level of "sin"? etc. Evidence please.
I am still waiting for your strongest list of objections to The Quran. When you begin such a thread, pm me, so I dont miss it.
Sure the English language, like the Farsi language I know has hundreds of expressions, but if the Quran claims to be a book of science, & I've become acquainted with many a Muslim online & offline who claim scientific miracles in the Quran & advanced historical knowledge, so these types of historical ignorance is hard to accept.
I not only referred to animals, but also to other humans like the ancient Egyptians & Mesopotemians. Sin is a loaded word, many things are termed as sin by some & not by others.
Like masturbation,consensual oral sex between two adult partners, consensual sex during menstruation between a monogamous & faithful husband & wife etc.
I gave examples from the animal world to show that other creatures too have indulged in homosexuality from times immemorial, like they have indulged in rape etc.
To prove that humans were absolutely shunning such behavior for until Lut's folks invented it requires evidence from you, not me. As I said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence & I'm not the one making the extra ordinary claim here.
-
RACE CARD?! Omg...Lol.
Asking you to read a text in its original language is RACIST? However, saying Muslims are this and that is NOT? What bizarro world do you come from again? Listen Fawzia, I know you think it's really cool to be above religion and all, but you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here. If you don't want to study Arabic or any language, fine. That just simply excludes your opinion from being credible.
Not knowing Arabic excludes my opinion of Islam from being crbedible? Lol! lol! lol! ;D ;D ;D
I know that by selecting to be a Muslim, even a Quranist Muslim, you have rejected the religions known as Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism,Confucianism, Taoism, Bahai etc.
Obviously you have accepted the version of the Bible stories as the Quran narrates those-not as the Torah or NT does.
Tell me, do you know Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek for the Bible, Sanskrit for all Hindu Scriptures, Pali & Prakrit for the Buddhist Tripitaka, Classical Chinese for Confucian & Taoist texts,Classical Japanese for the Shinto Scriptutes, Pahlavi for the Zoroastrian Scriptures, Farsi for the Bahai scriptures etc?
Do you have adequate knowledge of all these various languages? D
If you do not, if you lack knowledge of any of these languages, & lack sufficient knowledge as to be incapable of reading these books, then sorry I will tell you the exact same thing that you tell me, re
If you don't want to study Arabic or any language, fine. That just simply excludes your opinion from being credible.
If you've not studied all these languages fine. However, then your decision of being a Quranist Muslim & thinking that the Quran is the best guidance is simply not credible.
Walootan And Luth
ith qala liqawmihi When he said to his people
ata/toona alfahishata Do you bring about the injustice
ma sabaqakum biha not outstripped by
min ahadin from any
mina alAAalameena from the worldsIt's great that you're an animal lover but the word here is FAHISHA or injustice so here animals (who are all submissive to God) are EXCLUDED.
Furthermore, Lut's ppl are guilty of waylaying people and actual forced sex so your animal kingdom crap is again excluded. Learn to read carefully Fawzia, it helps.Now go check with your translators and lets see where the 'from before' is, lol.
First, even excluding animals, the Egyptian couple is human, so are these temple prostitutes in Mesopotemia.
http//books.google.co.in/books?id=lbmXsaTGNKUC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=homosexuality+ancient+mesopotamia&source=bl&ots=dr4P5hNTtk&sig=iB4bno4rY5qKbGDvHDZonzreBAA&hl=en&ei=TtrySuCLBIzAsgOd2I0Q&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBQ
These Mesopotemians are 5000 years old.
Animal kingdoms don't have, "actual forced sex," Lol! Surely you know of rape amongst animals?
Anyway, these Mesopotemian prostitutes sure fit the bill.
Both humans & animals indulged in such behavior.
-
It IS capable of translation but who's disputing that? You're peddling the usual haters rant of 'you guys hide behind Arabic'. I'm not saying don't translate the Quran. I'm challenging YOUR translations. Now you, a practitionar of 'genuine scholarship' , should understand that if YOU don't know the language, then you really can't decide who is right or wrong.
Question Why do you automatically stand with these translators? Don't run from answering, ok.Excellent! Then perhaps you aren't a "genuine scholar" Muslim after all, having blindly accepted Muhammad as the seal of Prophets without knowing about Sanskrit, Pali, Hebrew, Greek, Classical Chinese, Pahlavi etc? D
I automatically stand with these translators as they have been reviewed by multiple people, unlike your translation.
As I said, a small minority of the Muslim world is Arab. Even amongst those, its not classical Arabic but local, modern languages & dialects which prevail. Newspapers are in modern Arabic. The Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indian Muslims, Indonesians, Africans etc all rely on translations-exactly like Muslims rely on Bible translations before accepting that the Quranic version of events is true.
The modern world has multiple needs, its difficult for anyone & everyone to spend years learning all the classical languages of the world before deciding their choice of religion.
I hope you never dare to disagree with any Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Zoroastrian etc about religious dogma before spending years boning up on their holy languages first? D
AND I hope you turn away any not fluent in classical Arabic member of another religion who decides to revert to Quranist Islam, advicing them to spend years learning classical Arabic, Greek, Hebrew et al first as in your own words, being non fluent in classical Arabic they're incapable of deciding, "really can't decide who is right or wrong." ;D
Henceforth don't proselytize mebers of those religions or anyone else to Quranist Islam! D
-
I hope you never dare to disagree with any Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Zoroastrian etc about religious dogma before spending years boning up on their holy languages first?
I'll agree/disagree with with whatever anyone else says depending on how it sits in my conscience(my real connection with God). And I don't outright reject any religion, but I do belive that they've all been preverted for the sake of earthly greed.
-
I'll agree/disagree with with whatever anyone else says depending on how it sits in my conscience(my real connection with God). And I don't outright reject any religion, but I do belive that they've all been preverted for the sake of earthly greed.
Hi Tareq,
This was addressed to abdalquran, not you.He claimed that as I am not knowledgable in classical Arabic, I am incapable of reading & really deciding whats' rigth & whats wrong.
In his own words.
Now you should understand that if YOU don't know the language, then you really can't decide who is right or wrong.
First I am Persian, not Arab, I was born into a Muslim family, but like the vast majority of the world's Muslims, I was born into a non Arab family.
Also, not all Arabs are fluent in the classical Arabic of the Quran.
I was asking abdulquran whether he knew all these languages, as he had selected Quranist Islam & Muhammad as his last Prophet without knowing these languages & thus, according to his logic, being incapable of deciding, "who's right & who's wrong." D
-
Not knowing Arabic excludes my opinion of Islam from being crbedible? Lol! lol! lol! ;D ;D ;D
Changing the goalposts again eh, Fawzia? I don't know if you're unethical or simply just blur bur clearly you don't get the point. Who told you you can't opine about Islam? Opine all you want but we're not talking about your opinion about ISLAM, are we? We're talking about a difference of opinion between two parties. You chose the Sunni translators quite simply because they hold the opinion which you can criticise. Then you call Quranists people who are in a 'desperate attempt to salvage their faith'. So you made a CHOICE between the two but WITHOUT the requisite knowledge.
That's the difference.
I know that by selecting to be a Muslim, even a Quranist Muslim, you have rejected the religions known as Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism,Confucianism, Taoism, Bahai etc.Obviously you have accepted the version of the Bible stories as the Quran narrates those-not as the Torah or NT does.
Tell me, do you know Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek for the Bible, Sanskrit for all Hindu Scriptures, Pali & Prakrit for the Buddhist Tripitaka, Classical Chinese for Confucian & Taoist texts,Classical Japanese for the Shinto Scriptutes, Pahlavi for the Zoroastrian Scriptures, Farsi for the Bahai scriptures etc?
Do you have adequate knowledge of all these various languages?
If you do not, if you lack knowledge of any of these languages, & lack sufficient knowledge as to be incapable of reading these books, then sorry I will tell you the exact same thing that you tell me, re
If you've not studied all these languages fine. However, then your decision of being a Quranist Muslim & thinking that the Quran is the best guidance is simply not credible.Quite right, I don?t know the languages of these texts and that is why I never get into any intricate discussions about their teachings. I have read books in English books about their general philosophies of religion but even at that level, I find those religions incomparable to what Quran teaches. Therefore, intricate analysis which will not change the basic philosophies of these religions will not change a thing.
When you find me in a Christian forum debating if the bible teaches this or that, then you have case. Otherwise, you?re still clutching at straws there, lol.First, even excluding animals, the Egyptian couple is human, so are these temple prostitutes in Mesopotemia.http//books.google.co.in/books?id=lbmXsaTGNKUC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=homosexuality+ancient+mesopotamia&source=bl&ots=dr4P5hNTtk&sig=iB4bno4rY5qKbGDvHDZonzreBAA&hl=en&ei=TtrySuCLBIzAsgOd2I0Q&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBQ
These Mesopotemians are 5000 years old.
Animal kingdoms don't have, "actual forced sex," Lol! Surely you know of rape amongst animals?
Anyway, these Mesopotemian prostitutes sure fit the bill.
Both humans & animals indulged in such behavior.Oh so these animals were also highwaymen like the people of Lut? Did they dress up like Jack Sparrow or what? Lol, jeez?
I automatically stand with these translators as they have been reviewed by multiple people, unlike your translation.
As I said, a small minority of the Muslim world is Arab. Even amongst those, its not classical Arabic but local, modern languages & dialects which prevail. Newspapers are in modern Arabic. The Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Indian Muslims, Indonesians, Africans etc all rely on translations-exactly like Muslims rely on Bible translations before accepting that the Quranic version of events is true.
Oh wow, they were REVIEWED? Wowwwww?so assuming you?re right (which btw, you?re not since Yusuf Ali and Pickthall were NOT reviewed,LOL) why do you trust the reviewers? I have clearly translated it for you step by step. Why don?t you have the guts to check the translations? This is your ?genuine scholarship?, I guess, lol?..
-
Peace,Fawzia,
I`d like to ask you a question,
in this verse "So when she had delivered she said My Lord, I have delivered a female, and God is fully aware of what she delivered, And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil."(336)Is Al-Quran/God stating that "the male is not like the female"? or is it Imran`s wife who was a human being confined to the limits of time,traditions and concepts of the Patriarchal community where she lived?
-
Peace,Fawzia,
I`d like to ask you a question,
in this verse "So when she had delivered she said My Lord, I have delivered a female, and God is fully aware of what she delivered, And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil."(336)Is Al-Quran/God stating that "the male is not like the female"? or is it Imran`s wife who was a human being confined to the limits of time,traditions and concepts of the Patriarchal community where she lived?
Hi sadah,
What does male is not like the female mean? It means different, different doesn't mean inequal, we all know that men & women have different genitalia, women can have kids etc.
Not like doesn't imply anything else.
However, homosexuality doesn't exists shows ignorance of history.
-
I'll agree/disagree with with whatever anyone else says depending on how it sits in my conscience(my real connection with God). And I don't outright reject any religion, but I do belive that they've all been preverted for the sake of earthly greed.
bravo bravo bravo
-
Fawsia,
Does the verse speaks of what exactly happened then? I think not?
"Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
it doesn't say what the people did but it did say they have done something indecent that none before them committed
might be, he refers to the number of people who had indulged in homosexuality is so large in his community,?
-
Fawsia,
Does the verse speaks of what exactly happened then? I think not?
"Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?"
it doesn't say what the people did but it did say they have done something indecent that none before them committed
might be, he refers to the number of people who had indulged in homosexuality is so large in his community,?
Does he say your maybe or do you say it yourself? )
Had done before means that his community's act was without precedent, as the Mesopotemian example shows, it had been done before.
So it shows ignorance.
-
Does he say your maybe or do you say it yourself? )
Had done before means that his community's act was without precedent, as the Mesopotemian example shows, it had been done before.
So it shows ignorance.
Does he say your maybe or do you say it yourself? )
Had done before means that his community's act was without precedent, as the Mesopotemian example shows, it had been done before.
So it shows ignorance.
Peace
Fact
NOWHERE in the verse it says do you commit homosexuality which none of the worlds have done before. The verse ONLY says do you commit lewdness like no other world (people) before you have done, and lewdness can be any unmoral act, it does NOT necessarily have to be homosexuality which the verse is talking about. Lewdness can for instance be rape. Let's see what the verse says780 And Lot, he said to his people Do you commit lewdness such as none of those of the worlds had done before?
As you can see from the verse above, the verse says lewdness and not homosexuality. Besides, the verse don't say that no world (people) had done lewdness before the people of lut, because that would contradict other quranic verses. The verse NEVER says that people of Lut were the first people in the history of mankind to do lewdness. If the verse said that it would contradict other quranic verses because the Quran says that lewdness happened even in the time of pharaoh. LEWDNESS was NOT something only happening in the time of lut
249 And We saved you from the people of Pharaoh, they were afflicting you with the worst punishment; they used to slaughter your children, and rape your women. In that was a great test from your Lord.
As we can see from the verse above, it says that the people of pharaoh used to rape the women. And RAPE is the same as lewdness.
Here is the meaning of lewdness from dictionary
lewd (ld)
1.
a. Preoccupied with sex and sexual desire; lustful.
b. Obscene; indecent.http//www.thefreedictionary.com/lewdness
As you see above, nowhere in the dictionary it says that lewdness has to be homosexuality. Lewdness according to the dictionary is sexual desire, sex, lustful, obscenity, indecency.
Fact
The verse below also says do you commit lewdness as non of the worlds have done before. If we interpret the verse we can come to the following conclusionThe statement that none of the worlds (people) had done lewdness as the "people of lut" could mean that non of the worlds (people) before the people of lut had done lewdness as extreme as the people of lut had did. Nobody were as fanatical as the people of lut. And according to proofs we know that the "people of Lut" have been the most lewd people in our history.
If you don't agree that the people of lut have been the most lewd people in the history of mankind, then show me your proofs from history and archeology? Show me one community in the world that was as lewd or even more lewd than the "people of lut"?
-
Hi,
Different people have extremely different estimates about the time of Abraham & Lot's birth, & of course about their historicity itself.
We are not helped exactly by stories which claim that these Biblical folks lived hundreds of years!
This site says that Abraham was born between 2000 & 1500 B.C.,so the Egyptian couple would be older than them.
http//www.answers.com/topic/abrahamHistorical dates can be determined using some simple logic rather than mere guesswork.
- Jospeh was in Egypt during the time of the 7 year famine (which the king had seen in a dream);
- The 7 year drought is recorded in a stela as occuring during the reign of King Djoser (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_Stela);
- King Djoser ruled Egypt between 2635 & 2610 B.C. (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djoser);
- Joseph is the son of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham - that would place Abraham at least 100-150 years prior to King Djoser's rule;
- Lot was alive during the same time as Abraham;
Therefore The people of Lot existed around 4,700-4,800 years.
Anyway, even if I accept your estimates, this book says that in Mesopotemia, references to homosexuality occur from the third millennium BC-that is, from 5000 years ago. This is even older than your estimates.
http//books.google.co.in/books?id=lbmXsaTGNKUC&pg=PA139&lpg=PA139&dq=homosexuality+ancient+mesopotamia&source=bl&ots=dr4P5hNTtk&sig=iB4bno4rY5qKbGDvHDZonzreBAA&hl=en&ei=TtrySuCLBIzAsgOd2I0Q&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CBMQ6AEwBQ
Sorry, unlike your Egyptian link (which is excellent evidence, but off in terms of timing), there is no credible proof in what you referenced. In-fact, here is what the book you point to says
"...male prostitutes were either dispised or considered laughable. Homosexual acts were never clearly depicted in visual art..."
A far cry from the people of lot who engaged in open homsexuality and despised having relations with females.
So are we to conclude that I am correct & the Quran is wrong?
I'll give you a "B-" for effort, but an "F" for proving the Quran wrong
