Idribuhunna & Adriba Anhunna-to pull the wool over non Arabic speakers

[unknownuser]

All the verses that contain darb against a human are understood to mean "beat" or "strike" that human, by their context and this is agreed upon.

To give/hit you (idriboohu) with another non literal example

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And they said "Are our gods better or He?"
They did not daraboohu (hit you) except arguing, but they are a people disputing.

waidriboohunna refers back to the example ?set forth? or given prior?
??and abandon them (waohjuroohunna) in the place of lying down??

Basically says "and show them (F)" or take an attitude of abandoning/ignoring them thus in the literal sense.

[Fawzia]

To give/hit you (idriboohu) with another non literal example

4358
And they said "Are our gods better or He?"
They did not daraboohu (hit you) except arguing, but they are a people disputing.

waidriboohunna refers back to the example set forth or given prior
and abandon them (waohjuroohunna) in the place of lying down

Basically says "and show them (F)" or take an attitude of abandoning/ignoring them thus in the literal sense.

Thanks! You are the perfect example of accepting that the circle's a square! laugh

Allah didn't say what you're desperately trying to prove, He said "Idriboohunna" NOT "Adriboo Anhunna ( &#1606"

Allah could have used the word which exists for leave them but He didn't.

I don't see the Constitution of most of the nations being so confusing & using wrong words for domestic violence, most prohibit it & make it a punishable offence in no uncertain terms! laugh

I know the non Arab Muslims out here, desperate to save their faith, will now ignore all the contradictory evidence, & stick to whatever new interpretations & meanings they're fed to salvage their faith. laugh

[Wakas]

Actually, the most accurate answer is that it can theoretically mean "leave them" as their is a direct object there (see Lane's Lexicon), thus no need for "An", however, I think you mean to say the majority of examples in Classical Arabic dictionaries use "An". However, this is not a rule as such, more of a common pattern of usage. I recommend asking any Arab linguist.

Good timing though, as I have just finished my article on DaRaBa in The Quran a few days ago, and I am just waiting on some minor aspects of the Arabic to be verified/clarified. I should be able to post it within 2 weeks.

[unknownuser]

Allah didn't say what you're desperately trying to prove, He said "Idriboohunna" NOT "Adriboo Anhunna ( &#1606"

What did I write exactly?

waidriboohunna refers back to the example ?set forth? or given prior?
??and abandon them (waohjuroohunna) in the place of lying down??

Basically says "and show them (F)" or take an attitude of abandoning/ignoring them thus in the literal sense.

Is this not an example of hitting a human non literally?

To give/hit you (idriboohu) with another non literal example

4358
And they said "Are our gods better or He?"
They did not daraboohu (hit you) except arguing, but they are a people disputing.

[Fawzia]

Actually, the most accurate answer is that it can theoretically mean "leave them" as their is a direct object there (see Lane's Lexicon), thus no need for "An", however, I think you mean to say the majority of examples in Classical Arabic dictionaries use "An". However, this is not a rule as such, more of a common pattern of usage. I recommend asking any Arab linguist.

Good timing though, as I have just finished my article on DaRaBa in The Quran a few days ago, and I am just waiting on some minor aspects of the Arabic to be verified/clarified. I should be able to post it within 2 weeks.

I have asked PLENTY of Arab linguists, Arab scholars, Quran scholars, Islamic scholars & ordinary graduates of Arabic from Saudi Arabia-all agree that this means beat or hit.

The people I asked includes two apostates, one committed Muslim who's also very modern & liberal in his thinking, a regular ole Arabian Sunni-all say that if Muhammad had meant "leave them" the sentence would be grammatically very ill, to say the least.

I admire their honesty.

However, I know you'll continue to pretend to yourself & others that the square's a circle to save your faith, exactly like you believe that the belligerent rant in the Quran is some splendid system for all mankind from the Creator of the Universe! ;D

[huruf]

So, Fawzia, darling is this some news you are bringing us tht we didn't know this thing about what 4.34 should say? Or are you here in order that we repent and tell "oh now that Fawzia says it it must undoubtedly be so"? If it is the latter you ar going to have to bring ut some hard and proper analisys of the thing and refute properly the reasons why d-r-b- is not used in the sense of hit in the truthful Quran, not on 4.34, not anywhere else. You should do that instead instead of throwing tantrums that discredit your arguments.

Salaam

[Fawzia]

So, Fawzia, darling is this some news you are bringing us tht we didn't know this thing about what 4.34 should say? Or are you here in order that we repent and tell "oh now that Fawzia says it it must undoubtedly be so"? If it is the latter you ar going to have to bring ut some hard and proper analisys of the thing and refute properly the reasons why d-r-b- is not used in the sense of hit in the truthful Quran, not on 4.34, not anywhere else. You should do that instead instead of throwing tantrums that discredit your arguments.

Salaam

Oh no huruf, darling, right at the beginning of my post, I showed how there're two words, Idriboohunna (&#1606 means beat them (for female plural). Adriboo Anhunna ( &#1606 is the one that means abandon or leave them, plus I gave ample examples, Allah has used Idriboohunna not Adriboo Anhunna. laugh

I don't throw tantrums, simply state bare truths, which seem unpleasant to you, well if you want to follow a Prophet who wanted to marry his daughter in law & so got a convenient revelation from Allah, who used the word for beating rather than the word for leaving, then do so! laugh

My arguments certainly aren't discredited, its your delusions & capacity for continuing self delusion which is exposed. laugh

[Wakas]

I have asked PLENTY of Arab linguists, Arab scholars, Quran scholars, Islamic scholars & ordinary graduates of Arabic from Saudi Arabia-all agree that this means beat or hit.

I did not ask what they thought it meant, I was referring to what it theoretically could be according to the Arabic, and theoretically it could mean "leave them" as there is a direct object there. See Lane's Lexicon.

The people I asked includes two apostates, one committed Muslim who's also very modern & liberal in his thinking, a regular ole Arabian Sunni-all say that if Muhammad had meant "leave them" the sentence would be grammatically very ill, to say the least.

Ahh, now we perhaps see an element of truth in your statement. "grammatically very ill" does not mean grammatically impossible.

I admire their honesty.

I also admire honesty, and that is why I gave the most accurate answer (to my knowledge), whereas you gave a "one side of the coin" answer (albeit the most common) and kept quiet about the other side. This is misleading at best, and dishonesty at worst.

If you disagree, simply state clearly for all to see, something like "It is impossible according to the Arabic for it to mean "leave them", please see reference ABC, or because of the grammatical rules of XYZ".

Replacing ABC/XYZ with actual references/information however ;D

To be honest, it makes no difference to me, as my study resulted in only one possible answer, and "leave them" wasn't it.

[huruf]

Darling, Fawzia, you didn't show anything at all, you merely stated that you understood one expressi?n meant something and the other not. Why you brought here that expression which does not appear in the Qur'an beats me. We are concerned, I think, with the one that appears in the Quran. Did anyone bring up the other expressi?n which is not in the Quran?

So you have not showed anything at all concerning the meaning of idribuhunna and we are not concerned either what meaning anybody wants to give it, but rather its meaning in the Quran, where the same verb appears repeatedly and here is no way that you could make it mean each and every time what you say it means, and which appears in a gramatical construction in the aya you pretend to illustrate with which you according to its appearance int he Quran you could hardly make it mean what you want it to mean. In fact you cannot find in the Quran a single occurrence of d-r-b where beat would be the most appropriate meaning. I find it weird indeed that would want it so much to mean beat.

Salaam

[unknownuser]

I have travelled in the Arabic speaking Middle East, also spoken to many who know Arabic extensively-all have frankly admitted that 434 says "beat".

However,Yusuf Ali embarrassed with beat added lightly after it & then people in modernity tried to use the root word & claim that it means to leave.

The majority of the world's Muslims are non Arabic speakers, & I know many who become Quranists in the desperate attempt to save their faith which in their own minds they have almost lost.

Thus, they're extremely keen to accept any translation which avoids jeopardizing their faith.

This is how beat has been used in the Quran.

Meaning To beat
Verse 8.50 Object Human Faces
If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the Unbelievers (at death), (How) they smite their faces and their backs, (saying) "Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire-

Transliteration Walaw tara ith yatawaffa allatheena kafaroo almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum wathooqoo AAathaba alhareeqi

Qur'an 850
yadriboona wujoohahum literally meaning "hit their faces," which is translated by the Islamic site as "beat their faces."

Verse 47.27 Object Human Faces
But how (will it be) when the angels take their souls at death, and smite their faces and their backs? Fakayfa itha tawaffat-humu almala-ikatu yadriboona wujoohahum waadbarahum

Qur'an 4727
yadriboona wujoohahum literally meaning "hit their faces." Also translated correctly by the Islamic site, Just like the previous verses.

Comparing the two terms
Beat them and leave them are different phrases in Arabic. The arabic word idribohunna driven from the root word Darab does not have any other meaning than Beat when it comes to mean "Yadreb Ahadan" = Hit someone. Idriboohunna (&#1606 means beat them (for female plural). Adriboo Anhunna ( &#1606 is the one that means abandon or leave them. According to the Arabic lexicon.

Arabic Transliteration Meaning
Zarb Beat
(used in 434) Idriboohunna Beat them
Adriboo Anhunna abandon them, leave them

Quran 434 says Idriboohunna , not Adribu Anhunna . These two phrases have different meanings.

All the verses that contain darb against a human are understood to mean "beat" or "strike" that human, by their context and this is agreed upon.

So why didn't Muhammad &\or Allah\the Arabs write down Adribu anhunna?
Why are many of today's Muslims convincing themselves that a circle is a square because this verse as translated threatens their faith?

waiting for those who know Arabic to come up with innovative reasons & desperate Quranists to cling to any translation & interpretation which doesn't destroy their faith. laugh

peace Fawzia,

So do people think the guy actually hit the stone and there where twelve springs of water?

Or He actually took a stick to the sea?

It's the same concept hitting the missus - there is no hitting at all.

If you can grasp the above then you will indeed grasp the hitting concept of the DRB, irrespective of how people are taking it to be.

On the other hand, you are right, if understood as the translation stands in the modern day qurans it is ridiculously/ catastrophically wrong, the DRB concept. peace

260
And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said "Strike the rock with thy staff." Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah, and do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.

2663
Then We told Moses by inspiration "Strike the sea with thy rod." So it divided, and each separate part became like the huge, firm mass of a mountain.

In the case of separating your beds, I wonder how many people actually sleep with the missus or they sleep in there own bunk separate? So how will they let the missus know they are separating there beds? Simply by making plain to her of their intentions- that is what the DRB is.

Idriboohunna making it apparent /visible/plain

All the verses that contain drab against a human mean "to make plain/visible/apparent"

peace

[unknownuser]

I admire their honesty.

Peace Fawzia, thank you for posting;
was having doubts (not pertaining to this topic) and you inspired my thinking, so the answer was given clearly.

So how will they let the missus know they are separating there beds? Simply by making plain to her of their intentions- that is what the DRB is.

Idriboohunna making it apparent /visible/plain

Peace simple -- Yes, exactly agree or in other words "and show them" thus as already stated...

waidriboohunna refers back to the example ?set forth? or given prior?
??and abandon them (waohjuroohunna) in the place of lying down??

Basically says "and show them (F)" or take an attitude of abandoning/ignoring them thus in the literal sense.

[Wakas]

Forgot to post the link, as mentioned above, in this thread www.Quran434.com

Completely refutes the traditional position.

[Mazhar]

Oh no huruf, darling, right at the beginning of my post, I showed how there're two words, Idriboohunna (&#1606 means beat them (for female plural). Adriboo Anhunna ( &#1606 is the one that means abandon or leave them, plus I gave ample examples, Allah has used Idriboohunna not Adriboo Anhunna. laugh

I don't throw tantrums, simply state bare truths, which seem unpleasant to you, well if you want to follow a Prophet who wanted to marry his daughter in law & so got a convenient revelation from Allah, who used the word for beating rather than the word for leaving, then do so! laugh

My arguments certainly aren't discredited, its your delusions & capacity for continuing self delusion which is exposed. laugh

Did you also ask those scholar as to what "waw" means?

[nerspi]

i'm sure most merciful people would not say violence is the answer, rather to solve it intelligently...
but what surprises me is that there's still people in the world who think that a Super Intelligent Being THE MOST MERCIFUL (more then any human) would recommend DOMESTIC VIOLENCE as a solution

[guest]

When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met

1. Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only
2. Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will
3. This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers

Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery. Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.

Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God?s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah?s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!

Peace.

[Wakas]

guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com

I strongly recommend you read it.

[unknownuser]

When discussing verse 434 the following assumption and/or pre-condition must be met

1. Allah is addressing the believers. Therefore, this law is for the believers only

2. Believers are righteous and conform to will of Allah i.e. no free will

3. This law does not apply to anyone other than the believers

4. Anyone who agrees with it (i.e. definition of a believer)

5. All are free to "agree or disagree" with whatever circumstance

6. 1 & 2

Situation What is a believer to do when the wife has gone bad and causing havoc in the family? Please remember the family could have mature male and female children. Say the wife is doing drug, sex,?. in the presence of the children i.e. in the house when the husband is not there.

Perhaps dysfunctional family should apply to go on Jerry Springer.

Say the husband decided to divorce her. Because he is a believer he has to comply with 2226 - Those who intend to divorce their wives shall wait four months (cooling off); if they change their minds and reconcile, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

No, 2226 is about making careless oats ?
http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=2&verse=226

During this period the believing husband can beat the wife if she is exposing the children to drugs, illegal sex, etc. after other conditions in the verse are met. This makes sense. She can of course leave the husband to avoid beating and for the good of the family. Please remember that this privilege is granted to the believer only. This is similar to whipping a female in case of adultery. Also one would rightfully shoot a female soldier in a battlefield.

No, interpretation by insensitive narcissists who lack empathy especially toward women fantasying them all as prostitutes craving sex, drugs, and other fetishes with older children projecting their inner desire and are aroused by it.

Everybody is not cutout to be a believer. Most people shun God?s law in favor of manmade law. Thus you will find many compromising Allah?s law by introducing different meaning that suits their desire. Be aware of them!

Yes, the self righteous ?tell? is easy to spot.

Peace

[guest]

guest, your view is exposed on www.Quran434.com

I strongly recommend you read it.

Peace Wakas,

I went to your recommended website but found nothing of use. If you wish to comment on what I wrote, you are welcomed to do so. Thanks.

[Wakas]

peace guest,

Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly

You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?

And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?

Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not )

[guest]

peace guest,

Yes, I will choose to comment, to expose your completely made-up view more clearly

You seems to suggest exposing bad acts (e.g. illegal sex, drugs etc) to children in the family, even though the verse says nothing about children, thus tell us what is the situation for when a family has no children?

And does your punishment of beating still apply when there is children but the wife does not expose such acts to them, hence the use of "al gayb/unseen/private"?

Once you answer these, then we can see if your view is even more problematic, or not )

Peace Wakas,

Children or no children the punishment is the same for performing a bad conduct (ill-conduct). The consequence of not punishing implies a serious blow to the family, neighbors, and society in general. And remember that the punishment is inflicted by a believer, therefore, it will be just, fair, and compliant with Allah?s law. Also know that the bad situation can last at most 4 months.

We don?t have a law to deal with unseen event. In this case the judgment rest with Allah.