Idribuhunna & Adriba Anhunna-to pull the wool over non Arabic speakers
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Peace Wakas,
Before you can ask someone to give a ?yes? or a ?no? answer YOU must define the problem i.e. you should have defined what fear is. For example
Definition 1 - a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined;
Definition 2 - Fear is an unpleasant feeling of perceived risk or danger, real or not.
If you think it is an imagined threat then it does not make sense. And it would be wrong to imply that God meant that.
If you take the threat to be a real threat then the answer is yes because it make sense. Please note some people have translated it as ?experience? or ?see?.
The sentence of the Ayat does not relate a hypothetical proposition or imaginary fear but mentions instructions in a factual situation, ground reality.
Recommencing particle, conjunction
Relative Pronoun feminine; plural
Verb Imperfect; second person; masculine; plural; indicative mood visible by presence of ""; and "" subject pronoun of the verb; Verbal noun . And what is the cause/object of this ?
Object of verb that is the cause/likely cause of fear/apprehension. Theword is a possessive phrase; and the cause of fear is specific/definite not imaginary because of possessive pronoun being definite.
The imperfect indicative mood verb does not restrict itself to any idea of time, it indicates enduring existence, begun and incomplete, either in past, present or future time.
Hence here is for solid experienced reasons.
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peace guest,
If you think it is an imagined threat then it does not make sense. And it would be wrong to imply that God meant that.
It is a pity you use your "logic" to negate what the Arabic Quran actually says, simply because YOU cannot understand it. Has it ever occurred to you that just because it doesn't make sense to you, it may be that your sense is lacking?
It has taken us several posts so far, and we still have not been able to pin down what your view is, let alone test it. Now you imply it may not mean "fear" but "see/experience" instead, so tell us, where else in the 120 occurrences of this word does it mean "see/experience"? Here, I will even help you
"fear" (Arabic root Kha-Waw-Fa) occurs about 120 times in The Quran
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=xwfTell us, which occurrences does it mean experience/see, if you speak the truth?
Not that I actually expect you to answer the above question, but might as well ask it.
Both definitions of "fear" you gave were fine. The "real or imagined" part refers to the threat (the thing being feared) not the actual feeling of fear, the feeling of fear is real. It exists. But feeling fear does NOT tell us if the thing feared is real or imagined.
Not to mention the blatantly obvious fact in 434 it is about what the wife may do "in al ghayb/unseen/private", ghayb/unseen does not mean she is seen doing it.
However, for sake of argument, let's forget about all of the above, and pin down what YOU actually think 434 is on about, so we can actually test it. For example, what do you mean by
If you take the threat to be a real threat then the answer is yes because it make sense.
It seems to me you are suggesting 434 refers to a husband who knows his wife is doing a bad deed, e.g. illegal sex, and can therefore go through the steps in 434 and punish her if she does not change her ways. Is this correct yes or no?
IF you answer yes, then see
If it is only the husband who fears disloyalty/uprising/infidelity, or even if he is sure of it, and if there are no witnesses/evidence, then he must follow the procedure in 246-9 and cannot take it upon himself to administer any punishment. Since a "fear/suspicion", as in 434, is certainly less than being sure, it also cannot warrant any punishment. Anything to the contrary would be an internal inconsistency in The Quran's ruling.
If we imagine a real life scenario in which a husband thinks his wife is guilty of disloyalty/infidelity and therefore undergoes the steps in 434, as traditionally understood, then before the wife is "hit/beat" she simply needs to say "let's go to court and apply 246-9 to your accusation" to which the husband would be dumbfounded as he is allegedly allowed to "beat" her yet according to 246-9 his accusation would be rejected by the court! Thus giving us the ridiculous situation of a wife being legally vindicated of her husband's accusation yet is still allowed to be punished by her husband! There is no escaping this obvious contradiction in the traditional understanding.Ergo, even though the Islamic/Quranic court would reject the husband's claim, is he still allowed to punish her according to you? yes or no?
It is such a simple question.
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Peace Wakas,
It is a pity you use your "logic" to negate what the Arabic Quran actually says, simply because YOU cannot understand it. Has it ever occurred to you that just because it doesn't make sense to you, it may be that your sense is lacking?
I have no intention of negating the Arabic Quran, on the contrary I intend to implement the Quranic value in my life. I believe everything in the Quran makes perfect sense.
Has it ever occurred to you that just because it doesn't make sense to you, it may be that your sense is lacking?
I never claimed that I am infallible. If you provide good justification for your claim (position), I will accept it. Thus far it hasn?t happened.
It has taken us several posts so far, and we still have not been able to pin down what your view is, let alone test it. Now you imply it may not mean "fear" but "see/experience" instead, so tell us, where else in the 120 occurrences of this word does it mean "see/experience"? Here, I will even help you
"fear" (Arabic root Kha-Waw-Fa) occurs about 120 times in The Quran
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?root=xwfI just said others have translated differently than you. And they are consistent with the definitions of fear which I provided.
Tell us, which occurrences does it mean experience/see, if you speak the truth?
Does Kha-Waw-Fa has only one meaning or does it have many meaning?
Both definitions of "fear" you gave were fine. The "real or imagined" part refers to the threat (the thing being feared) not the actual feeling of fear, the feeling of fear is real. It exists. But feeling fear does NOT tell us if the thing feared is real or imagined.
Definition 1 - a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined; two cases are shown below
impending danger = real (consistent with experience or see)
impending danger = imagined (does not make sense)Not to mention the blatantly obvious fact in 434 it is about what the wife may do "in al ghayb/unseen/private", ghayb/unseen does not mean she is seen doing it.
The perpetrator thinks they are doing the violation in secret but we know they leave behind evidence.
It seems to me you are suggesting 434 refers to a husband who knows his wife is doing a bad deed, e.g. illegal sex, and can therefore go through the steps in 434 and punish her if she does not change her ways. Is this correct yes or no?
Yes.
IF you answer yes, then see
These are violation other than 246-9 violations. And there are many.
Ergo, even though the Islamic/Quranic court would reject the husband's claim, is he still allowed to punish her according to you? yes or no?
It is such a simple question.
Islamic/Quranic court is irrelevant to this discussion.
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peace guest,
Thanks for evading my question and thus showing the strength of your position. It is irrelevant if Kha-Waw-Fa has several meanings or a billion meanings, what we are interested in is how The Quran uses this word. Can you not find even one out of 120 occurrences to legitimise your position?
The perpetrator thinks they are doing the violation in secret but we know they leave behind evidence.
Not necessarily, this is an insertion on your part.
These are violation other than 246-9 violations. And there are many.
Yet another insertion on your part. Are you forced to say this otherwise your position crumbles?
Perhaps I should have been clearer from the outset, I am basing my discussion on what The Quran actually says, not what it probably says after inserting a few things here and there.
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Thanks for evading my question and thus showing the strength of your position. It is irrelevant if Kha-Waw-Fa has several meanings or a billion meanings, what we are interested in is how The Quran uses this word. Can you not find even one out of 120 occurrences to legitimise your position?
Peace Wakas,
Did God said something like this " Do you know what Kha-Waw-Fa is?" and then provided the meaning?
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peace guest,
Did God said something like this " Do you know what Kha-Waw-Fa is?" and then provided the meaning?
The Quran defines how it uses its words, especially if it uses it over 120 times. I have provided a link to every occurrence for you. The evidence for my view is every occurrence of the word. If you have evidence to the contrary, then bring it forth.
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peace guest,
The Quran defines how it uses its words, especially if it uses it over 120 times. I have provided a link to every occurrence for you. The evidence for my view is every occurrence of the word. If you have evidence to the contrary, then bring it forth.
Peace Wakas,
In this particular case, you can use the word fear with the meaning impending danger = real. That is my view.
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Peace Wakas,
In this particular case, you can use the word fear with the meaning impending danger = real. That is my view.
the fear of impending danger does not make the danger real, only makes the fear real for the person feeling it, this can be down to many factors such as illnesses causing paranoia.
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the fear of impending danger does not make the danger real, only makes the fear real for the person feeling it, this can be down to many factors such as illnesses causing paranoia.
Peace Ayisha,
Definition of Fear = a distressing emotion aroused by impending danger, evil, pain, etc., whether the threat is real or imagined
Fear = a distressing emotion aroused by a real threat
or
Fear = a distressing emotion aroused by an imagined threat
In this case, fear = a distressing emotion aroused by a real threat, makes sense. That's my view.
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So we have deduced that in guest's situation, the wife simply needs to go to court to defend herself against her husband's accusation and the court would declare her innocent, yet the husband can still punish her. In other words, in this case, the legal authority of the court and decision is irrelevant and can be usurped by the husband.
Interesting.
Of course, in this thread I have only pointed out some flaws, there are others, the most glaring being any form of hit/strike going against the rest of AQ's statements/procedures, and the incompatibility of this understanding with 4128-129.
These questions are left for those who uphold this position to resolve and explain away.As Quran434.com explains, all evidence points to one answer and one answer only, and that is "idribu-hunna"="cite/indicate-them".
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So we have deduced that in guest's situation, the wife simply needs to go to court to defend herself against her husband's accusation and the court would declare her innocent, yet the husband can still punish her. In other words, in this case, the legal authority of the court and decision is irrelevant and can be usurped by the husband.
Interesting.
Of course, in this thread I have only pointed out some flaws, there are others, the most glaring being any form of hit/strike going against the rest of AQ's statements/procedures, and the incompatibility of this understanding with 4128-129.
These questions are left for those who uphold this position to resolve and explain away.As Quran434.com explains, all evidence points to one answer and one answer only, and that is "idribu-hunna"="cite/indicate-them".
Peace Wakas,
The implementation of verse 434 DO NOT require a court, period.
Verse 4128 is talking about good women being mistreated, these women are not performing indecent act. Therefore, there is no contradiction between 434 and 4128.
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peace guest,
The implementation of verse 434 DO NOT require a court, period.
I never said it did. I simply demonstrated your view's absurdity, by suggesting the women, whom the husband thinks/knows is doing wrong, to take her case to court before she is struck/punished, to which she would be vindicated, but according to you still allowed to be punished by the husband. In other words, if a person knows* of a wrong they can take the matter into their own hands and become judge/jury/executioner, bypassing any islamic/quranic court and requirements of evidence etc thus effectively rendering the entire Quranic judicial system null and void. In other words, nonsense.
*even though 434 says "fear".
You do not get my comparison of 434 and 4128, hence do not see a problem. There is an incompatibility issue, unless you say the women experiencing nushuz from her husband can also punish him in the same way you envisage for 434. This is the only way out of it. Of course this would not resolve the issue of disregarding the Quranic judicial system.
I am amazed The Quran even bothers with requiring 4 witnesses for various crimes, or 2 witnesses over a marriage contract, or debt etc all these stipulations are irrelevant, if a person knows of a wrong they can become judge/jury/executioner and punish as they please................. according to you.
As I said, there is no escaping this contradiction. If you cannot see the problem, that is up to you.
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Peace Wakas,
I never said it did. I simply demonstrated your view's absurdity, by suggesting the women, whom the husband thinks/knows is doing wrong, to take her case to court before she is struck/punished, to which she would be vindicated, but according to you still allowed to be punished by the husband.
In your court she will be vindicated!!
In a Quranic court believing husband?s right will be recognize per 434.In other words, if a person knows* of a wrong they can take the matter into their own hands and become judge/jury/executioner, bypassing any islamic/quranic court and requirements of evidence etc thus effectively rendering the entire Quranic judicial system null and void. In other words, nonsense.
The believing husband is executing the law of Allah in accordance with the Quran. It is very simple to understand but you don?t get it.
You do not get my comparison of 434 and 4128, hence do not see a problem. There is an incompatibility issue, unless you say the women experiencing nushuz from her husband can also punish him in the same way you envisage for 434. This is the only way out of it. Of course this would not resolve the issue of disregarding the Quranic judicial system.
In 4128 Allah does not allow the women to punish her husband rather provides a different way out.
I am amazed The Quran even bothers with requiring 4 witnesses for various crimes, or 2 witnesses over a marriage contract, or debt etc all these stipulations are irrelevant, if a person knows of a wrong they can become judge/jury/executioner and punish as they please................. according to you.
It seems you are implying that believer should not be trusted. I disagree with your implication.
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peace guest,
In your court she will be vindicated!!
In a Quranic court believing husband?s right will be recognize per 434.Interesting, it seems you are implying this is an exception to the rule, in terms of Quranic judicial process and evidence requirements, so let us see with an example, to test your position...
You previously said 246-9 refers to other stuff, not 434 stuff, and even though this is a baseless interpretation on your part, let's stick with it for sake of argument. Let's also stick with your strange use of "fear".
Test Example
Husband has a real fear, or lets say he is sure, that his wife is taking cocaine, so he goes through the steps in 434 and she is not responding, so just before he is about to hit her she says "you have no right to punish me without evidence, I will take this case to court". Now, tell us what happens after this, e.g. what this islamic/quranic court would do... and if you feel there are multiple options, feel free to list them.In 4128 Allah does not allow the women to punish her husband rather provides a different way out.
We can also test your position another way. Simply tell us EXACTLY what you think the procedure is in 4128-130 for the wife who feared nushuz. Then we can see if it is compatible with Quran or not.
It seems you are implying that believer should not be trusted.
Interesting. So tell us guest, let's say we can trust a believer what does that mean they can do? Are you implying they can do as they please as a believer would never lie or be unjust thus all their actions are allowed, they dont need to prove it etc? Then once you answer that, also tell us how we determine who is a true believer and who is not? Thanks.
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Peace Wakas,
Test Example
Husband has a real fear, or lets say he is sure, that his wife is taking cocaine, so he goes through the steps in 434 and she is not responding, so just before he is about to hit her she says "you have no right to punish me without evidence, I will take this case to court". Now, tell us what happens after this, e.g. what this islamic/quranic court would do... and if you feel there are multiple options, feel free to list them.Your statements ??..lets say he is sure?.? contradicts ??you have no right to punish me without evidence?.?
Interesting. So tell us guest, let's say we can trust a believer what does that mean they can do?
They comply with Allah?s law/order.
Are you implying they can do as they please as a believer would never lie or be unjust thus all their actions are allowed, they dont need to prove it etc?
They don?t do as they please; they only follow Allah?s order.
Then once you answer that, also tell us how we determine who is a true believer and who is not? Thanks.
Compliance with Allah?s law/order = Believer
Non-compliant with Allah?s law/order = Not a believer
Allah knows who is a believer.
We don?t have to determine if person is a believer or not. The person knows if he is believer or not. If he is a believer then he can impose Allah?s law. If he is not a believer he cannot impose Allah?s law i.e. he cannot hit the women. But we know bad people will do bad things. Please do not equate the action of bad people to a believer.
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peace guest,
Your statements ??..lets say he is sure?.? contradicts ??you have no right to punish me without evidence?.?
A person can be sure yet have no evidence, people think like this all the time. In any case, let me rephrase so you dont evade again The wife says "you have no right to punish me as I do not accept your evidence (if you have any), I will take this case to court". Tell us, what happens next...
And why do you evade answering my question
Simply tell us EXACTLY what you think the procedure is in 4128-130 for the wife who feared nushuz. Then we can see if it is compatible with Quran or not.
Allah knows who is a believer.
We don?t have to determine if person is a believer or not. The person knows if he is believer or not. If he is a believer then he can impose Allah?s law. If he is not a believer he cannot impose Allah?s law i.e. he cannot hit the women. But we know bad people will do bad things. Please do not equate the action of bad people to a believer.
Exactly, Allah knows who is a believer, we do not know for certain.
Most of those who think they believe in God are actually idolaters
So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly! The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. (12106)Some of those who think they are guided/believers are not
Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of GOD, yet they believe that they are guided. (730)
On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them. (622-24)We are trying to determine what is Allah's law, so dont evade, and just answer.
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Peace Wakas,
A person can be sure yet have no evidence, people think like this all the time. In any case, let me rephrase so you dont evade again The wife says "you have no right to punish me as I do not accept your evidence (if you have any), I will take this case to court". Tell us, what happens next...
Her acceptance of evidence is irrelevant. She is guilty in the eyes of her husband. Thus she is punished. This is Allah?s law.
If she takes the case to Quranic court, the court will side with the husband and charge is dismissed.
And why do you evade answering my question
Quote
Simply tell us EXACTLY what you think the procedure is in 4128-130 for the wife who feared nushuz. Then we can see if it is compatible with Quran or not.Resolve the problem or part.
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Most of those who think they believe in God are actually idolaters
So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly! The majority of those who believe in GOD do not do so without committing idol worship. (12106)Some of those who think they are guided/believers are not
Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of GOD, yet they believe that they are guided. (730)
On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?" Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers." Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them. (622-24)We are trying to determine what is Allah's law, so dont evade, and just answer.
These people are falsely claiming to be a believer. They ignore the proof provided by Allah. They are not believer. Thus they are irrelevant to this discussion.
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peace guest,
Her acceptance of evidence is irrelevant. She is guilty in the eyes of her husband. Thus she is punished. This is Allah?s law.
If she takes the case to Quranic court, the court will side with the husband and charge is dismissed.Finally! This is what I wanted you to admit. Essentially in your view "whatever husband says goes", e.g. if he says guilty, then she is, regardless of evidence. This is completely unheard of in The Quran, thus we will assume this is an exception to the rule, unless you can prove otherwise. Further, in the case of 246-9 The Quran clearly states whatever husband accuses wife of can be refuted by the wife simply by her testimony, so we will have to assume, in your view, Quran suspends this in 434 giving no logical reason as to why. In addition, husband can punish and we have to take the husband's word for it that he did it in a just way. Punishment with no oversight/limit is unheard of in The Quran.
Thus, your view is complete nonsense to anyone who requires no variance in Quran . This is what I wanted to demonstrate, i.e. holding such a view for 434 requires it to be an exception to the rule. Point proven.As a side note, it's blatantly clear you have not read Quran434.com
Now lets move onto the next testing of your view...
Resolve the problem or part.
So lets say they do not resolve the problem, and she is left as one hanging/stuck, as implied by 4129. Tell us, what is the next step?
These people are falsely claiming to be a believer. They ignore the proof provided by Allah. They are not believer. Thus they are irrelevant to this discussion.
They are not believers, exactly, but they think they are. So tell us guest, which of these is the true believer, or both are, or both are not
Jim "I am a believer."
Bob "I am a believer."Tell us.
In case you do not get my point, my point is simple, it is impossible to take someone's word for it that they are a believer hence can be trusted. No judicial system in the entire world is built on such blind trust, it requires evidence and law/procedure, exactly like The Quran. Thus, whatever husband says in 434 is irrelevant no matter how much of a believer he thinks he is, as we have no way of telling. The Quran does not have us rely on blind trust when it comes to justice!
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Thus, ironically, Traditional Muslims who uphold hit/beat actually not only go against The Quran, but some of the biggest "scholars" in Traditional Islam.
They also go against the prophet's example, which they always claim to be following. Not a single incident where the prophet has hit one of his wives has ever been recorded. But there are various hadith in Bukhari (and others) describing an incident where the prophet had been arguing / fighting with his wifes and was so upset that he actually left the house and stayed away for several weeks.
Also
... One day Umar was having an argument with his wife and waited as usual for her to accept his shouting with bowed head, according to the custom of Quraysh. But she did nothing of the sort "As I was railing at my wife, she answered me in the same tone of voice. Responding to my reproaches for her acting like that, she said 'You reproach me for answering you. Well, by God, the wives of the Prophet answer him, and one of them ran away from him until nightfall.'"
(Bukhari, Sahih, vol. 3, p. 258, French trans. by Houdas, p. 587)
