How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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I seperate the two because from AQ i get the impression that they are seperate. Why would verses need to be stated like this
Except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or whom their right hands possess,- for (in their case) they are free from blame.
Doesn't the above verse make it fairly clear that MMA are different to those whom you are married to? I think they can be those whom you intend to marry but i don't get the impression that they are those whom you are already married to.
Arabic Literal translation
what your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (feminine plural) right hands possess
what your right hands possess
Those whom your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is clear that the above aya is talking about slave girls.
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Arabic Literal translation
what your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (feminine plural) right hands possess
what your right hands possess
Those whom your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is clear that the above aya is talking about slave girls.
Salam Afridi
How can MMA mean slaves? Have a look at this Verses 423-24
Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths....423 begins by saying whats forbidden in marriage and 424 clearly adds muhsinat as forbidden for marriage unless they are your MMA. If MMA were to be slaves then would mean that in order to marry muhsinat women, they first have to be your slaves. For this reason and also this reason
in verses such as 2221, the word used for slave is not the phrase MMA but it is the followingAlif-Miim-Waw = female/woman made/became a slave, handmaid, utter a cry, follow/imitate.
amah n.f. 2221, 2432
, i don't think MMA are slaves.
When you said
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.That depends on what an MMA is and what it takes to become an MMA. It could be something like an engagement or something less or maybe even more. I don't know but what i think i may know is that sex with MMA is not prohibited. That is what im arguing for.
To set the record straight as i think many accuse me of writing this article or starting this thread purely because i currently seek sex. I want to clarify and say that i am not. I seek to know wether it is forbidden or not, why and what are the boundries and again why such boundries. Just like one might seek to know wether salat has to be done the sunni way, the shia way or another way. It's not because one desires an easier salat as some may accuse those for not upholding salat the traditional way.
At first i rejected the notion of sex being exclusive to marriage prior to looking at the Quran because it did not make sense for two commited (and not irresponsible and selfish) people to be prohibited from such a thing. Nevertheless AQ is AQ and i said to myself even if I am engaged, I will not have sex untill i am married. So i looked to AQ and thought just what exactly are the conditions for marriage and what does AQ mean. Then i left this issue uncertain. Then the thread that David_k started reminded me of the topic of MMA. After posting in that thread, it was advised to me that i write an article on this after research and not just post things without researching and so I did.
I did not do this because i'm waiting for the nod to go and.........
I did this because the truth in this will effect things such as if i do end up in a commited relationship or what i advise my child (if i have one) with respect to this issue and so on. -
Arabic Literal translation
what your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (masculine plural) right hands possess *
what their (feminine plural) right hands possess
what your right hands possess
Those whom your (masculine plural) right hands possess *
Right hand posses ( wich you all ready own ) and not any girle in the street you intend to marry so you got the licence to have sex with her.If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
It is clear that the above aya is talking about slave girls.
peace
425 And whoever of you don?t have the means to marry the believing women who guard their chastity, then from those not guarding their chastity who commit by oath of your girls/women the believing and Allah knows your faith and you are one from another then marry them with permission of their guardians and give them their bridal due in a fair manner They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for decent women (who guard their chastity). This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
All the ayah is saying is if you can't get the good quality stuff , then you can go for the not so good stuff laugh
but the risk does go up aswell.
peace
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Ok so here is a short summary of objections and answers to objections to the article. The primary purpose of this is to make clear objections that have not been mentioned so that they may be mentioned so that then they may be discussed. Also it is good for easy referencing and comparing.
Note that F= For sex with MMA and O= Objection to sex with MMA
O We are told to guard our private parts.
F Yes but the exception to this are spouses and MMA 235-6O Just because private parts don?t need to be guarded to MMA this does not mean sex is permissible to them
F How does it not? AQ is a complete book. If sex was to be exclusive to marriages, this would have been made clear. What has been made clear though is that there is no blame on those who do not guard their private parts to their spouses and MMA. 236O Why then are there guidelines in marriage such as the waiting period and not for MMA?
A A marriage oath is different to an MMA oath. Thus if they are not the same things then they will not have the same guidelines.O That would then mean that if a child that is born outside of pregnancy, then the father has no responsibility as opposed to the guideline for marriage where the father is responsible.
A This was the best objection (IMO)
Let?s look at 2233 And the mothers are allowed to suckle their children two full years, if they wish to complete the suckling. And the man for whom the child is born is responsible for both their provisions and clothing equitably. A soul is not burdened except with what it can bear. No mother shall be harmed because of her child, nor shall a father be harmed because of his child. And for the guardian is the same requirement. So if they wish to separate out of mutual agreement and counsel, then there is no sin upon them. And if you want to hire nursing mothers, then there is no sin upon you if you return what you have been given equitably. And be aware of God, and know that God is watching over what you do.This verse applies to ALL mothers and ALL fathers. This is not about marriage alone. This is clear by the fact that there is no mention of married mothers or married husbands but more importantly it is made clearer by the fact that separation used in this verse is not the word talagh (divorce) where as in cases related to marriages the word talagh is used. This means that this verse encompasses cases of marriages as well outside of marriage.
O This verse occurs in a place where guidelines are set for marriages thus this verse is for marriages alone.
A The words of the verse convey otherwise. It makes clear that this verse is about ALL mothers and ALL fathers whether within marriage or outside it.O MMA are slaves
A Verses 423-24 Forbidden for you are your mothers, and your daughters, and your sisters, and the sisters of your father, and the sisters of your mother, and the daughters of your brother, and the daughters of your sister, and your foster mothers who suckled you, and your sisters from suckling, and the mothers of your women, and your step-daughters who are in your lodgings from your women with whom you have already consummated the marriage; if you have not consummated the marriage then there is no sin upon you; and those who were in wedlock with your sons who are from your seed, and that you join between two sisters except what has already been done. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
424 And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths....423 begins by saying whats forbidden in marriage and 424 clearly adds muhsinat as forbidden for marriage unless they are your MMA. If MMA were to be slaves then would mean that in order to marry muhsinat women, they first have to be your slaves.
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To marry or have sex with a married woman is not allowed excep she becomes a slave. Two words can be used for a thing.
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting that MMA has two meanings?
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Take your time to study Q3350-52. A woman that offered herself is not MMA. Prophet should not marry anymore except MMA.
That which is decreed for the prophet in this case is different to us. He has rights that we don't in this case. We cannot relate those verses to us.
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Read the verses before 2233. It refers to divorced mothers.
I had done.
From 2226 onwards all verses are linked in a way to marriage. 2226 is at first unclear whether it's talking of marriage but because the next verse refers to the previous verse with the word talagh, it makes it clear that it is related. From there on all other verses upto 2233 have some clear implication of marriage. But 2333 has no signs of it being a marital relationship. It emphasises all mothers and all fathers "no mother shall be harmed....." and deliberately does not use the word talagh when talking of seperation.I know that you said that it is sandwiched between verses which talk of marriage but two things i want to point out
- 2233 could have used divorce mothers in place of just mothers but it did not do this for a reason.
- There are other exmaples of unrelated verses sandwiched in a topic. Look at 2238-239. The verses suddenly stop talking of marriage related issues and spends 2 verses talking of Salat before returning again to marriage related issues.
So the fact that it's sandwiched in marriage related verses does not make it exclusive to marriages. The words of 2333 IMO are clear on talking of all mothers and all fathers. Perhaps this could be that it is considering that the divorce has already happened and thus they are no longer husband or wife but again if anyone gets pregnant or anyone becomes a father wether within or outside a marriage that verse 2233 will surely apply to them.
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Whatever the circumstances in this verse, it doesn't mean that sex (which lead to the birth of a child) is allowed outside marriage. It could be rape or a one night stand. So other verses need to be taken into account.
In regards to 2238-239, maybe the definition of salat in these verses needs to be revised.
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235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their spouses (azwaaj), or those who are maintained by their oaths (ma malakat aymanukum), they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.From these verses, it is clear that none should have access to the private parts except the following two categories Spouses (Azwaaj) and those who are committed to you by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum) Thus SO FAR sex can only be done with those two categories of people.
That's only one kind of person. Marriage is an oath.
As to the morality of casual sex, it is never harmless
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AUSrmWlGJs
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Whatever the circumstances in this verse, it doesn't mean that sex (which lead to the birth of a child) is allowed outside marriage. It could be rape or a one night stand. So other verses need to be taken into account.
In regards to 2238-239, maybe the definition of salat in these verses needs to be revised.
Are you suggesting that 2238-239 may possibly be related to marriage? Like the word salat to mean bond like a marriage bond?
About your point about rape or a one night stand. What happens if a husband rapes his wife? In all cases the father is responsible for the provisions. A father who has commited the crime of rape whether within or outside marriage will most likely not have the character to take such responsibility. Equally one night stands. AQ is not likely to appeal to those who uphold irresponsible one night stands. -
Are you suggesting that 2238-239 may possibly be related to marriage? Like the word salat to mean bond like a marriage bond?
About your point about rape or a one night stand. What happens if a husband rapes his wife? In all cases the father is responsible for the provisions. A father who has commited the crime of rape whether within or outside marriage will most likely not have the character to take such responsibility. Equally one night stands. AQ is not likely to appeal to those who uphold irresponsible one night stands.I'm not sure about what the 2 verses mean just yet but salat can mean different things so it could mean something in relation to marriage.
That's what I meant. The father is always responsible for the child no matter how the child was conceived whether its within marriage, rape or a one night stand. But of course, like you said, those who are irresponsible or immoral to have a one night stand or rape might not follow the Quran, thus refuse to take responsibility.
The advantage of marriage is that the woman and child are protected and the man will be held equally responsible if a woman gets pregnant.
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That's only one kind of person. Marriage is an oath.
As to the morality of casual sex, it is never harmless
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AUSrmWlGJs
How can they be the same when MMA are part of the group that are permitted for marriage? Once you marry them they are no longer MMA.
Thank you for the video. We should keep these things in mind. -
I'm not sure about what the 2 verses mean just yet but salat can mean different things so it could mean something in relation to marriage.
That's what I meant. The father is always responsible for the child no matter how the child was conceived whether its within marriage, rape or a one night stand. But of course, like you said, those who are irresponsible or immoral to have a one night stand or rape might not follow the Quran, thus refuse to take responsibility.
The advantage of marriage is that the woman and child are protected and the man will be held equally responsible if a woman gets pregnant.
There is clear advantages to a relationship which has become a marriage but how is this advantage of marriage which you point to related to 2233? On the part about the fathers, it does not go beyond talking about him being responsible for provisions of the child. It could be that the father of a relationship outside of a marriage is a much better father and takes much responsibility then another father who is in a marriage.
Marriage as far as i know, does not bring an advantage to this.
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There is clear advantages to a relationship which has become a marriage but how is this advantage of marriage which you point to related to 2233? On the part about the fathers, it does not go beyond talking about him being responsible for provisions of the child. It could be that the father of a relationship outside of a marriage is a much better father and takes much responsibility then another father who is in a marriage.
Marriage as far as i know, does not bring an advantage to this.
I meant if there was a legal contract between them or at least they are known to the public as a couple, then the father can't flee from his responsibilities. You might think this won't happen but it does and single mothers are left to take care of their child on their own with no financial help from the father.
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I meant if there was a legal contract between them or at least they are known to the public as a couple, then the father can't flee from his responsibilities. You might think this won't happen but it does and single mothers are left to take care of their child on their own with no financial help from the father.
well put bravo
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13800.0
Noah tried to help the then poor ladies but now the law of the land, in the west anyway, does help greatly.
peace
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Peace all
peaceThe purpose of this article is to argue against the widely accepted belief that the Quran prohibits sex before marriage. I intend to do this by using the Quran to justify a case of pre-marital sex where it is acceptable in the light of the Quran.
I have had a similar view for a while now. From my perception, the Quran advises against casual sex but not against premarital sex. One does not share a bond with a one night stand, it is just sex. However, a gf and bf are committed to each other by oath. They have developed a bond and care about each other deeply. Is a gf or bf not whom your right hand possesses?