How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

san

peace

I think you can devorce them as you are married to them, the Oath you take is/are your marriage vows.

you don't take oaths with women you don't want to be responsible for surely!

do you know of any people where they take oaths of responsibility, honestly, where they don't want to be responsible for them?

peace

you missed the IF (i.e. the condition), please don't take my words out of context. thx.

unknownuser

you missed the IF (i.e. the condition), please don't take my words out of context. thx.

What i mean is , doesn't taking the oath in the sight of God, to take the responsibility -ragarding the needs and requirements of the MMA constitute a marriage- if not how does one marry someone without an oath in the sight of God-for the said responsibilites?

Thanks and peace

san

What i mean is , doesn't taking the oath in the sight of God, to take the responsibility -ragarding the needs and requirements of the MMA constitute a marriage- if not how does one marry someone without an oath in the sight of God-for the said responsibilites?

Thanks and peace

i appreciate your input -- however the whole post/reply was directed specifically to nimnimak_11, and i made conditional sentences to fit his terms and frame of thinking, or at least i tried to. Since you (i assume) and i don't hold the same view as Nima's, then this part is of no relevance to our arguments. That's why i ask you not to bring it out of context

IF you were to have sexual relationship with your MMA (unmarried), then what boundaries that would limit you from marrying her to "those who seek a contract"? (issue time from last sexual intercourse with you, the protector, to the next intercourse with another man) Remember you can't divorce your MMA as you have not married her (assuming it's a she), so she doesn't have whatever protection a legal wife has in AQ.

Does it make any sense with your conception of MMA? To, forgive me, "pass him/her on" to someone else to be contracted/booked/married?

Unless you are speaking on behalf of Nima--which i very much doubt--i suggest we wait for his response instead peace

nimnimak_11

But Nima how is lawful?

I disagree with you. Explain it better if you can.

Notice the verse is about nikkah?

The fatayat aren?t your mma. You?re seeking to marry an mma, otherwise you'll be asking yourself for permission to do nikkah with her (which makes no sense). and as for the caretakers of mma who wish to marry an mma they can't coerce them to nikkah 2433

What do you understand of the term ?muhsinat? muhsinat and mma are different things.

Salam

Sarah how is something that is not unlawful anything other then lawful? If it's not unlawful then what is it? I can claim that football is lawful (nothing in the Quran that contradicts this) but I can't claim football in which the rules from regular football are changed to state that at the end of the game, one player from the loosing team must be killed as this contradicts various verses such as the sacredness of life or transgression.

Ok Sarah. I'l put more detail into this as this is an important point which greatly implies that an MMA is some sort of a relationship. With any points you disagree just let me know and i'l see if i can explain better.

I know the verse is about marriage and this fact is in someway related to what i'm arguing and i also acknowledge that muhsinat and MMA are different things. What i'm saying is that to marry muhsinat, first you have to make them your MMA. By the way the word "your" is included in the phrase MMA but i thought i'd put it in english to make it a bit clearer.

Point 1) About Muhsinat It is clear that the Muhsinat are forbidden for marriage unless they become MMA first. I really think the following makes it clear
423-24 lists the forbidden for marriage. Muhsinat is clearly included in that list. 424 And the muhsinat, except those maintained by your oaths.....

But notice the except part. I could have this wrong in terms of arabic but the enligsh is pretty clear and i've just cheked a word by word translation and that also is pretty clear. The word ela is used for "except" and in iranian (farsi) we also use the word ela as except.

In the thread that david_k started jack also pointed this out. So from this, fatayat cannot mean anything like cousin, orphan, slave and so on. However the meaning muhsinat may change this. But from the other verses that talk of muhsinat and the use of the roots Ha-sad-nun

Point 2) About fatayat In the next verse that is still talking about marriage 425, i'm pretty sure it says only marry fatayat that are your MMA. Here's the verse And whoever of you have not the means to marry the believing muhsinat, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing young women

The above makes it clear that it is not just a fatyat but a fatayat that is your MMA. However an argument against this could be that the fatayat are not part of the forbidden class in 423-24 whilst the muhsinat were. What fatayat are is an important question which i can't answer.

So whether fatayat has to come from MMA is not certain but that musinat do have to come from MMA is. and thus from this i can't think of MMA being anything outside of a relationship. By inside of a relationship i mean bf/gf or fiance and by outside i mean slave, maid or caretaker and so on.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

hope you're doing well with your exam )

Thanks San. Finished the exams and now i've got more free time yay

I did not put the limit. I'm just trying to say that with such understanding, there are such and such possibilities. You can have your MMA without sexual relationship, i.e. sex is not necessarily the sole purpose of MMA,

I know sex is not the necessarily the sole purpose of an MMA. But sex is not necessarily haram in a relationship with an MMA.

IF indeed one has the right. Just like sex is not the sole purpose of a marriage. On the other hand, you are the one who seems to try to isolate the issue of "sex with MMA"

Because everyone has automatically acknowledged that sex with spouse is ok where as with the MMA they have automatically assumed that it is not.

(CMIIW). As one of the moderator have suggested about the hikma side of AQ, we need to try our best to link our best understanding of the many relevant AQ verses and to make a whole understanding out of it. For example, reading 2187, which as i understand it, does talk about sex, it says

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your women (nisaa&#039. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you.

note "women", not "wives/spouses/azwaaj". looks like it supports your arguments, right? let's read on.

Reading 43, the same word "women" are related with "nikah". 423-24 explains which of the women one man can marry and which he cannot. 242-3 give strong warnings against fornication/zina. And then goes on with related ethical issues until we come to 2430-31, which links "reducing/holding back sight" (visual) with "protecting private parts" and with a set of recommendations regarding physical "exposure" and "disclosure" and a certain attitude. Then right after those issues, we are presented with 'marry the unmarried among...' in 2432, an issue of "marriage/wedlock". 2433 further suggested for those who aren't able to marry/wed to hold on/abstain. Let's take the middle part of 2433 in detail, because it's very interesting and very crucial for/against your argumentation

wallatheena yabtaghoona al"kitaba" mim ma malakat aymanukum

fakatiboohum inAAalimtum feehim khayran
wa atoohum min mali Allahi allathee atakum

And those who seek a "contract" from your MMA

then make a contract with them if you know there is within them goodness
and give them from the wealth of Allah which He has given you.

What "contract/writing/kitab"?
Even more interesting, however, (someone might/should have already pointed it before) the interaction here is between

CHECK ALL THE TRANSLATIONS, including mine and yours

IF you were to have sexual relationship with your MMA (unmarried), then what boundaries that would limit you from marrying her to "those who seek a contract"? (issue time from last sexual intercourse with you, the protector, to the next intercourse with another man) Remember you can't divorce your MMA as you have not married her (assuming it's a she), so she doesn't have whatever protection a legal wife has in AQ.

Does it make any sense with your conception of MMA? To, forgive me, "pass him/her on" to someone else to be contracted/booked/married?

to note, the word "kitab" is also mentioned in 424, please carefully take the context of the whole sura and we get back to the expression "marry/nikah from the women/nisaa'" in sura 4. This is if you want to keep reading AQ as a whole. Otherwise you can always demand the question 'where does it say in AQ that ...'.

Remember the beginning part of 2433

But let them who find not marriage abstain until Allah enriches them from His bounty.

Yes, the sura previously talked about "fornication/zina", "reducing/holding back sight", "protecting private parts", physical "exposure" and "disclosure", and 'marry the unmarried'.

Yes, it talks about abstaining from sexual relationship, if it wasn't clear enough to you.

The verse you quote are linked to one another but to say that they are implying that sex is exclusive to marriage is too far a reach in my opinion.

You are right in 2187 it says women and not azwaaj thus not making sex exclusive to marriage.
About 43 how is this any evidence or implication that the nisa used in 2187 is exclusive to marriage? Here's 43. And if you fear that you cannot be just to the orphans, then you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women two, and three, and four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then only one, or whom you maintain by your oaths. This is best that you do not face financial hardship.

Firstly MMA are also mentioned there as part of the kind of relationship that can be sought from the women
But secondly even if MMA were not mentioned there, it would not make any difference because it might have meant that the Quran would instruct that in looking after orphans only a marital kind of relationship would work best and thus make having orphans exclusive to marrital relations. This would not make nisa exclusive to marrital relations

About 423-24. I know it's talking about marriage again how would this cause a problem. It does not make the nisa exclusive to marriage. Verses exclusive to marriage are exclusive to marriage and verses exclusive to let's say salat are exclusive to salat. The MMA are part of the class that one can marry. Whilst MMA are part of the class in which one can marry, this does not mean that sex can be had with them only IF you marry them as this 423-25 is not saying this in anyway.

2431 talks of lowering the gaze and gaurding one's private parts. Does one need to do this with respect to their spouse or MMA considering 235-6?
2432 This does not imply that sex is exclusive to marriages. This implies that to be married is better then no to be married. Thus i think it would also clearly imply that a marital relationship is more important and better then a relationship with an MMA. What it does not imply is that sex is exclusive to marriages.

2433 Think about this. Remember my comments on your reference to 2431 in this reply. Now consider this. It says abstain. Let's say sex. so the verse would be something like If you can't marry, then continue to abstain from sex untill god gives you the means.
Now let's say marriage. So the verse would say something like this If you can't marry, then continue to abstain from marriage untill god gives you the means.

Which one makes more sense? Your reference to 2430 serves as something that strengthens the argument of sex being halal with the MMA in my opnion because whilst 2430 says guard the parts, 235-6 says to whom there is no blame to unguard the parts. See the link? To use the Quran as a whole for this issue these things plus the fact that muhsinat must first become MMA before they become permissive to be married to must be taken into account.

The middle part of 2433. Could it mean anything other then that if the MMA seek marriage with you and you find them to be good and ready, then do it. This is a scenario of what to do when one is proposed to in my opnion. Now how is this again implying that sex is exclusive to marriage or not allowed with the MMA? It looks like it fits the puzzle considering muhsinat being haram untill they become MMA.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

And as a reminder, you haven't answered these earlier questions from me & other members

what is exactly the oath that binds your relationship with your MMA?
how binding is the oath (i.e. conditions etc)?
what makes the oath different to that of "marriage"?
(which in turn may require some explanation of what constitutes marriage/nikah -- at least as a precedence -- otherwise, we (different minds with different concepts) may confuse the meaning of "oath" to that of "marriage" while keep using both terms in confusion, especially as some have argued that marriage is not about administrative/legal documents at all.

IF you have the rights to have sexual relationship with your MMA, then

what is the rights of the MMA?
what are the boundaries regarding sexual relationship with your MMA?
in addition, as previously you told us that you worry about starting such a relationship for fear of ending it -- how does one end a relationship with his/her MMA?

You see, i'm not even asking about what consequences one is going to face by having a sexual relationship with an MMA (or anyone for that matter) out of marriage, but if you think it's going to work, then tell me how exactly it's going to work -- in line with AQ, of course. context our current time.

From the article most objections were with reference to certain verses of the Quran thus most of my focus was on replying to those. But tonight i will look at the issue of oaths hopefully so those questions are gonna have to wait.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

I forgot to reply to your point on Kitab. Please give me time and i'l post it when i post on the issue of oath.

SarahY

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam )

nimnimak_11

Peace all

I?ll try and keep this short.

So MMA = What your oaths possess

Points on oath

Point 1) Oaths can range in strength but they are still oaths.

2225 Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Point 2) We are not held accountable for our casual/thoughtless oaths but we are held accountable for our serious oaths by God as can be seen 2225

Point 3) To make amends for failure to uphold our serious oaths 589
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be greateful.

Point 4) Do not use oaths as a means of deceiving 1694
And do not use your oaths as a means of deception between you, that a foot will slip after it has been made firm, and you will taste the evil of turning away from the path of God, and you will have a great retribution.

San my next post will be about the point you made about kitab. I have not forgotten.
Also after that I answer to your point about the usage of kitab with respect to MMA, then i?ll answer those other questions hopefully.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

The root of Kitab

Kaf-Ta-Ba = he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed, drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law), mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ, revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.

About 2433. I think the term kitab here means something written like a contract. So this is when the MMA request a written contract from you as this is what makes sense. By written contract I personally think that this is when an MMA seeks to engage or maybe marry you. What the rest of the verse says conveys this also
.....if you find that they are ready/goodness in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
This suggests a progression in a relationship to me. Progression could be engagement or marriage. Do understand this differently? If so can you please provide your understanding.
Also you highlighted those/they and you. Did you mean anything siginificant other then that the MMA are requesting from you?

About the usage of kitab in 424. I can't see how kitab could be translated to anything other than book. So God's book is over us. This is said after clarifying those whom we can marry and those whom we cannot. By "God's book is over you" I understand God's law in the kitab (scripture) is over you.
What else can be inferred from this and how is the kitab mentioned here related to the kitab in 2433?
Thus how is this an argument against my argument?

nimnimak_11

Peace Zubairus, San

San here are my answers to the questions you asked earlier on.

what is exactly the oath that binds your relationship with your MMA?

I'm not sure on what you mean by this but i'l try and answer. If i misunderstood your question then let me know.

The oath that binds is the one that is implicitly applied when one starts a relationship. The Quran doesn't specify on how oaths are made but does convery that they can range in strength.

how binding is the oath (i.e. conditions etc)?

Depends on the seriousness of the oath. So the stronger a relationship, the stronger the oath.

what makes the oath different to that of "marriage"?

Marriage is when two people are sure that they want to spend the rest of their lives with one another. So this oath is meant to be rock solid. Thus the oath in a very serious relationship may be the equivalent of the oath in a marriage. Difference however is that marriage also contains a contract whilst a relationship does not.

(which in turn may require some explanation of what constitutes marriage/nikah -- at least as a precedence -- otherwise, we (different minds with different concepts) may confuse the meaning of "oath" to that of "marriage" while keep using both terms in confusion, especially as some have argued that marriage is not about administrative/legal documents at all.

If the above does not answer ask and i'll expand on it.

IF you have the rights to have sexual relationship with your MMA, then

what is the rights of the MMA?

The same rights as you have as you are also their MMA. Thus it's something that is between the two.

what are the boundaries regarding sexual relationship with your MMA?

If the two are ready to have sex, then the same as in marriage.

in addition, as previously you told us that you worry about starting such a relationship for fear of ending it -- how does one end a relationship with his/her MMA?

The earlier to end the easier it is. I think i mis-explained myself. My fear is not ending a relationship as this is my right as well as whoever i may be with's right. Just like a husband and a wife both have the right to a divorce. However my situation is such that i only intend to marry an Iranian girl. Thus i know for SURE that i won't marry a non-iranian. Thus if I start a relationship with a non-iranian with this in mind, i consider doing wrong. But if I come across an iranian girl who i like then i'l start a relationship.

So to end a relationship, one just ends and parts ways nicely. You could end it aggresively but considering the Quran, reason and heart, the first option is more righteouse.

Let me know what you think.

Zubairus

I think an MMA is someone who you posses by oath. Thus in a relationship, you possess someone by oath.
An oath does not have to be written and it can be implicit in my opinion.

Have i answered your question?

Let me know what you think.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam

Thanks sarah

I'll look at it tomorow and i'll let you know what i think. If it's too long then i might not comment on it tomorow but at some point i'll comment on it after a read. Right now it's 0031 here.

peace

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam )

Salam Sarah

Different things to comment on but i'll focus on your question. I'm not sure on why they get half the punishment but this obviously shows that there is something different about the fatayat to the muhsinat. Something that makes them less worthy of punishment and apparently an alternative if one does not have the means (finance?) to marry a muhsinat. Also something that requiers parental permission.

Fatayat from this look like either slave females, young girls or dependent girls.
Slave girls looks like the best option in this case i think.

MMA fits a relationship from alot of the verses that it's used in the Quran. Honestly i don't think anything else would make sense of MMA. MMA is not something in relation to legality. It's usage is oath. From the root of the word there is no other word that can be used in place other then oath.

peace

SarahY

When I think of ?ma malikat aymanakum? I seem drawn to power issues. the ?malikat? indicates you have power/authority over. So if bf/gf relations view both male and females as equals, going into a relation with mutual agreement why do you have power over them?

In my opinion ?slave? ?dependent? seems more fit for mma than gf/bf relation.

MMA fits a relationship from alot of the verses that it's used in the Quran. Honestly i don't think anything else would make sense of MMA. MMA is not something in relation to legality. It's usage is oath. From the root of the word there is no other word that can be used in place other then oath.

What word of what root are we talking about?

peace

nimnimak_11

When I think of ma malikat aymanakum I seem drawn to power issues. the malikat indicates you have power/authority over. So if bf/gf relations view both male and females as equals, going into a relation with mutual agreement why do you have power over them?

In my opinion slave dependent seems more fit for mma than gf/bf relation.

What word of what root are we talking about?

peace

Sorry i should have been clearer. I meant this root
Ya-Miim-Nun = right side, right, right hand, oath, bless, lead to the right, be a cause of blessing, prosperous/fortunate/lucky.

So in the case of the phrase MMA. From the above i think those whom you possess by oath makes the most sense in reference to verses we are discussing.
The point you make about possession also crossed my mind but think about it
I have a girlfriend (Is it much different to possessing a girlfriend whom you have an oath with?)
What else do you do in possessing a wife/fiance/gf? The way i see it, you possess eachother. You beloong to eachother. The Quran does not give us more authority over the MMA to my knowledge it just says that we possess them. This doesn't effect equality IMO.

Now consider your understanding that the MMA are slaves or dependent. Why would muhsinat have to become/be a slave or dependent in order for us to marry them (bear in mind that there is no other way that we can marry the muhsinat and that it is not forbiddent for us to make them their MMA)?

What does this point to?
People think that by approaching MMA as something like a gf will cause alot of problems and i can see why they say this but I don't think that problems will occure and i'll explain in as short a way as i can. As well as the Quran obviously practicality of something needs discussing also and i think i have not done enough of this so here it goes

Before i start this, let's believe that you can't have sex with MMA. So consider all things coming up to be without sex.

Point 1) MMA are those you possess by oath.
This very fact means that you can't decieve them 1694. So you can't approach a girl only with the intention of taking advantage of her status (if she works in high places) and then abandon her once you get what you want because that is deception. The person you start a relationship with is most likely to expect that your are searching for the person you want to spend the rest of your life with and so you are required to have that approach also. Same with marriage. You can't marry with the wrong intentions/reasons

Point 2) Now when it comes to breaking up. If you've not been deceiving (which you should not have been) then there is no blame on you in breaking up. The fact that you were not decieving means that you were being sincere thus there is no blame in breaking up when you have been sincere. This is the same with marriage only marriage is stricter with a contract in place which implies that one should make sure before deciding to marry and not take it casually.

Point 3) You can't cheat because of the oath in place as in you can't be seeing someone else (sex not included in seeing someone else) but the idea of seeing someone considering the oath in place is wrong. Same with marriage you can't see other people.

So anything wrong in that relationship so far?

Now consider all the above with the belief that sex is premitted in that relationship.

New complications that arise

Pregnancy. In the highly unlikely event that one becomes pregnant and can't avoid this in the right way then this verse is to be taken into account 2233
Increased intimacy. (will fit in the above guidelines)

Any other problems that are not covered by the above?

Also take into account this

2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

What is the unpracticality in this idea and where is the contradiction to the Quran and how does it go against the context of the whole of the Quran if people follow those guidelines?

SarahY

Peace Nima

This is tiring

There is no indication of sex being allowed without nikkah

Just because you can unguard your frj doesn?t mean you can have sex with them.

That?s my conclusion.

Sorry i should have been clearer. I meant this root
Ya-Miim-Nun = right side, right, right hand, oath, bless, lead to the right, be a cause of blessing, prosperous/fortunate/lucky.

In that case I would not say ?oath? as the strongest opinion on the word, maybe in isolation it works.

So in the case of the phrase MMA. From the above i think those whom you possess by oath makes the most sense in reference to verses we are discussing.
The point you make about possession also crossed my mind but think about it
I have a girlfriend (Is it much different to possessing a girlfriend whom you have an oath with?)
What else do you do in possessing a wife/fiance/gf? The way i see it, you possess eachother. You beloong to eachother. The Quran does not give us more authority over the MMA to my knowledge it just says that we possess them. This doesn't effect equality IMO.

It makes more sense because it makes it agree with your theory

It?s about you possessing her not you possessing each other.

Now consider your understanding that the MMA are slaves or dependent. Why would muhsinat have to become/be a slave or dependent in order for us to marry them (bear in mind that there is no other way that we can marry the muhsinat and that it is not forbiddent for us to make them their MMA)?

To be honest I don?t know. But i'll come up with a theory... If she is a slave shes under someone?s possession, if she becomes free thus independent she can be marriage material.

Point 1) MMA are those you possess by oath.

Oath or right hands possess. 1694 isn?t strictly related to MMA. Obviously doing wrong being deceitful is not acceptable.

So anything wrong in that relationship so far?

There was no nikkah, the assumption is that relationship is a personal one between male and female. People can have mmas of the same sex and that doesn?t mean you can go and have same sex relations. The relations aren?t of desire filled UNLESS YOU DO NIKKAH you can have that in it. it?s not like a gf/bf lovey dovey type, you made it that type.

When you can find me proof that you can have intimate sexual relations WITHOUT nikkah, I?ll consider some weighing to your theory. But to be honest I find none. I know you?re working hard to justify your theory but you gotta admit there are some gaps.

2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

What is the unpracticality in this idea and where is the contradiction to the Quran and how does it go against the context of the whole of the Quran if people follow those guidelines?

I dunno what you?re saying here

Nisaokom ?your women? are the ones you did nikkah with.. read back a few verses see the context it wouldn't mean mma.

Salam.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Nima

This is tiring P

There is no indication of sex being allowed without nikkah

Just because you can unguard your frj doesnt mean you can have sex with them.

Thats my conclusion.

236 mentions BOTH MMAs and spouses, so how can there be "no indication of sex being allowed without marriage", when it is one and the same ruling for MMAs AND spouses? I could use the same faulty type of argument of yours, twist it, and say "there is no indication of sex being allowed with spouses" based on what you cited. Just because one can "unguard" one's private parts around one's spouse it doesn't mean that one can have sex with him/her ;D

SarahY

yeh progressive you can do that based on that one verse, then when you realise there are other verses in relation to azwaj, you'll see that's the lawful means of sex.. you'll know sex is ok with azwaj which fits with the nikkah bond.

I give up, if you guys wanna have sex without nikkah and justify it by your own way go ahead do whatever you want by your own means but I don't agree with you, and i won't say it is quranically ok until you prove it.

there's to many things neither of us know and ignore and just keep moving on in circles, i've had enough

salam.

san

Sorry Nima, i haven't read all your posts since my last on this thread. i think you missed the point about gender in the verse 2433 or maybe i haven't made that clear enough. you may compare that to 2433-34.

And anyway, i'm starting to lose interest in this subject because, i don't really see the point/benefit for our current society/time. I would also echo Sarah's comment that sex with MMA is never EXPLICITLY encouraged in AQ.

nimnimak_11

Salam Sarah

This is tiring

I understand
If you want we can end the discussion between me and you on this topic. But i'll still discuss if you want.

There is no indication of sex being allowed without nikkah

Just because you can unguard your frj doesn?t mean you can have sex with them.

That?s my conclusion.

Sarah how can we make unlawful something that is not made unlawful? Everything is lawful unless made unlawful otherwise i can claim that music is haram and then say that the Quran not mentioning that music is haram does not = music as halal. I've said this before

If you can explain how you can make something that is not unlawful to unlawful then bravo handshake

It makes more sense because it makes it agree with your theory

So if i say that's my wife or that's my son and so on, I don't own any of them and none of them own me?

It?s about you possessing her not you possessing each other.

But you do possess here.

To be honest I don?t know. But i'll come up with a theory... If she is a slave shes under someone?s possession, if she becomes free thus independent she can be marriage material.

So why would a free believing women suddenly have to become your slave in order for you to be able to marry them?

Oath or right hands possess. 1694 isn?t strictly related to MMA. Obviously doing wrong being deceitful is not acceptable.

I didn't mean say that they were strictly for MMA. It's just about oaths but as MMA are oath related, that verse applies to oaths with them also.

There was no nikkah, the assumption is that relationship is a personal one between male and female. People can have mmas of the same sex and that doesn?t mean you can go and have same sex relations. The relations aren?t of desire filled UNLESS YOU DO NIKKAH you can have that in it. it?s not like a gf/bf lovey dovey type, you made it that type.

You can have an MMA of the same sex if you don't consider it a fahasha or a transgression as then you can justify yourself Quranically based on MMA.
That however is subjective.

When you can find me proof that you can have intimate sexual relations WITHOUT nikkah, I?ll consider some weighing to your theory. But to be honest I find none. I know you?re working hard to justify your theory but you gotta admit there are some gaps.

When you prove to me that it is halal to listen to music using my mobile phone....then i'll accept your objection. But to be honest i find no such restrictions in the Quran (sorry about the sarcasm -X)

Nisaokom ?your women? are the ones you did nikkah with.. read back a few verses see the context it wouldn't mean mma.

How?

2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit. And they ask you how much they are to give, say The excess. It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
2220 In this world and the next; and they ask you regarding the orphans, say To fix their situation is best, and if you are to care for them, then they are your brothers. And God knows the corrupt from the good, and if God had wished He could have made things difficult. God is Noble, Wise.
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to the Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
2222 And they ask you about the menstruations? Say It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruations, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you. God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

2221-223 talks about women. Not wives just women. 2221 talks about marrying a women 2222 talks about mensturation of a women and 2223 talks of the approach to women. It's about women not married women.

Peace