How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

nimnimak_11

Peace San

And as a reminder, you haven't answered these earlier questions from me & other members

what is exactly the oath that binds your relationship with your MMA?
how binding is the oath (i.e. conditions etc)?
what makes the oath different to that of "marriage"?
(which in turn may require some explanation of what constitutes marriage/nikah -- at least as a precedence -- otherwise, we (different minds with different concepts) may confuse the meaning of "oath" to that of "marriage" while keep using both terms in confusion, especially as some have argued that marriage is not about administrative/legal documents at all.

IF you have the rights to have sexual relationship with your MMA, then

what is the rights of the MMA?
what are the boundaries regarding sexual relationship with your MMA?
in addition, as previously you told us that you worry about starting such a relationship for fear of ending it -- how does one end a relationship with his/her MMA?

You see, i'm not even asking about what consequences one is going to face by having a sexual relationship with an MMA (or anyone for that matter) out of marriage, but if you think it's going to work, then tell me how exactly it's going to work -- in line with AQ, of course. context our current time.

From the article most objections were with reference to certain verses of the Quran thus most of my focus was on replying to those. But tonight i will look at the issue of oaths hopefully so those questions are gonna have to wait.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

I forgot to reply to your point on Kitab. Please give me time and i'l post it when i post on the issue of oath.

SarahY

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam )

nimnimak_11

Peace all

I?ll try and keep this short.

So MMA = What your oaths possess

Points on oath

Point 1) Oaths can range in strength but they are still oaths.

2225 Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Point 2) We are not held accountable for our casual/thoughtless oaths but we are held accountable for our serious oaths by God as can be seen 2225

Point 3) To make amends for failure to uphold our serious oaths 589
Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be greateful.

Point 4) Do not use oaths as a means of deceiving 1694
And do not use your oaths as a means of deception between you, that a foot will slip after it has been made firm, and you will taste the evil of turning away from the path of God, and you will have a great retribution.

San my next post will be about the point you made about kitab. I have not forgotten.
Also after that I answer to your point about the usage of kitab with respect to MMA, then i?ll answer those other questions hopefully.

nimnimak_11

Peace San

The root of Kitab

Kaf-Ta-Ba = he wrote it, to dictate it, prescribe/appoint/ordain, judged / passed sentence / decreed, drew/brought together, collected, conjoined / bound, he sewed it, what is written (e.g. of law), mode/manner of writing, book, bookseller, a thing in which or on which one writes, record/register/writ, revealed scripture, a writer/scribe/secretary, an army/military force, troop.

About 2433. I think the term kitab here means something written like a contract. So this is when the MMA request a written contract from you as this is what makes sense. By written contract I personally think that this is when an MMA seeks to engage or maybe marry you. What the rest of the verse says conveys this also
.....if you find that they are ready/goodness in them, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you.
This suggests a progression in a relationship to me. Progression could be engagement or marriage. Do understand this differently? If so can you please provide your understanding.
Also you highlighted those/they and you. Did you mean anything siginificant other then that the MMA are requesting from you?

About the usage of kitab in 424. I can't see how kitab could be translated to anything other than book. So God's book is over us. This is said after clarifying those whom we can marry and those whom we cannot. By "God's book is over you" I understand God's law in the kitab (scripture) is over you.
What else can be inferred from this and how is the kitab mentioned here related to the kitab in 2433?
Thus how is this an argument against my argument?

nimnimak_11

Peace Zubairus, San

San here are my answers to the questions you asked earlier on.

what is exactly the oath that binds your relationship with your MMA?

I'm not sure on what you mean by this but i'l try and answer. If i misunderstood your question then let me know.

The oath that binds is the one that is implicitly applied when one starts a relationship. The Quran doesn't specify on how oaths are made but does convery that they can range in strength.

how binding is the oath (i.e. conditions etc)?

Depends on the seriousness of the oath. So the stronger a relationship, the stronger the oath.

what makes the oath different to that of "marriage"?

Marriage is when two people are sure that they want to spend the rest of their lives with one another. So this oath is meant to be rock solid. Thus the oath in a very serious relationship may be the equivalent of the oath in a marriage. Difference however is that marriage also contains a contract whilst a relationship does not.

(which in turn may require some explanation of what constitutes marriage/nikah -- at least as a precedence -- otherwise, we (different minds with different concepts) may confuse the meaning of "oath" to that of "marriage" while keep using both terms in confusion, especially as some have argued that marriage is not about administrative/legal documents at all.

If the above does not answer ask and i'll expand on it.

IF you have the rights to have sexual relationship with your MMA, then

what is the rights of the MMA?

The same rights as you have as you are also their MMA. Thus it's something that is between the two.

what are the boundaries regarding sexual relationship with your MMA?

If the two are ready to have sex, then the same as in marriage.

in addition, as previously you told us that you worry about starting such a relationship for fear of ending it -- how does one end a relationship with his/her MMA?

The earlier to end the easier it is. I think i mis-explained myself. My fear is not ending a relationship as this is my right as well as whoever i may be with's right. Just like a husband and a wife both have the right to a divorce. However my situation is such that i only intend to marry an Iranian girl. Thus i know for SURE that i won't marry a non-iranian. Thus if I start a relationship with a non-iranian with this in mind, i consider doing wrong. But if I come across an iranian girl who i like then i'l start a relationship.

So to end a relationship, one just ends and parts ways nicely. You could end it aggresively but considering the Quran, reason and heart, the first option is more righteouse.

Let me know what you think.

Zubairus

I think an MMA is someone who you posses by oath. Thus in a relationship, you possess someone by oath.
An oath does not have to be written and it can be implicit in my opinion.

Have i answered your question?

Let me know what you think.

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam

Thanks sarah

I'll look at it tomorow and i'll let you know what i think. If it's too long then i might not comment on it tomorow but at some point i'll comment on it after a read. Right now it's 0031 here.

peace

nimnimak_11

Peace Nima

you might find this interesting, read the personal notes. then the translation of transliterated words, in particular towards the middle of the second part (just read the whole thing, you might like the post above it too)

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=8567.msg238293#msg238293

Ask yourself why would they get half punishment? ask yourself does MMA here mean or fit as a gf/bf type relation?

Salam )

Salam Sarah

Different things to comment on but i'll focus on your question. I'm not sure on why they get half the punishment but this obviously shows that there is something different about the fatayat to the muhsinat. Something that makes them less worthy of punishment and apparently an alternative if one does not have the means (finance?) to marry a muhsinat. Also something that requiers parental permission.

Fatayat from this look like either slave females, young girls or dependent girls.
Slave girls looks like the best option in this case i think.

MMA fits a relationship from alot of the verses that it's used in the Quran. Honestly i don't think anything else would make sense of MMA. MMA is not something in relation to legality. It's usage is oath. From the root of the word there is no other word that can be used in place other then oath.

peace

SarahY

When I think of ?ma malikat aymanakum? I seem drawn to power issues. the ?malikat? indicates you have power/authority over. So if bf/gf relations view both male and females as equals, going into a relation with mutual agreement why do you have power over them?

In my opinion ?slave? ?dependent? seems more fit for mma than gf/bf relation.

MMA fits a relationship from alot of the verses that it's used in the Quran. Honestly i don't think anything else would make sense of MMA. MMA is not something in relation to legality. It's usage is oath. From the root of the word there is no other word that can be used in place other then oath.

What word of what root are we talking about?

peace

nimnimak_11

When I think of ma malikat aymanakum I seem drawn to power issues. the malikat indicates you have power/authority over. So if bf/gf relations view both male and females as equals, going into a relation with mutual agreement why do you have power over them?

In my opinion slave dependent seems more fit for mma than gf/bf relation.

What word of what root are we talking about?

peace

Sorry i should have been clearer. I meant this root
Ya-Miim-Nun = right side, right, right hand, oath, bless, lead to the right, be a cause of blessing, prosperous/fortunate/lucky.

So in the case of the phrase MMA. From the above i think those whom you possess by oath makes the most sense in reference to verses we are discussing.
The point you make about possession also crossed my mind but think about it
I have a girlfriend (Is it much different to possessing a girlfriend whom you have an oath with?)
What else do you do in possessing a wife/fiance/gf? The way i see it, you possess eachother. You beloong to eachother. The Quran does not give us more authority over the MMA to my knowledge it just says that we possess them. This doesn't effect equality IMO.

Now consider your understanding that the MMA are slaves or dependent. Why would muhsinat have to become/be a slave or dependent in order for us to marry them (bear in mind that there is no other way that we can marry the muhsinat and that it is not forbiddent for us to make them their MMA)?

What does this point to?
People think that by approaching MMA as something like a gf will cause alot of problems and i can see why they say this but I don't think that problems will occure and i'll explain in as short a way as i can. As well as the Quran obviously practicality of something needs discussing also and i think i have not done enough of this so here it goes

Before i start this, let's believe that you can't have sex with MMA. So consider all things coming up to be without sex.

Point 1) MMA are those you possess by oath.
This very fact means that you can't decieve them 1694. So you can't approach a girl only with the intention of taking advantage of her status (if she works in high places) and then abandon her once you get what you want because that is deception. The person you start a relationship with is most likely to expect that your are searching for the person you want to spend the rest of your life with and so you are required to have that approach also. Same with marriage. You can't marry with the wrong intentions/reasons

Point 2) Now when it comes to breaking up. If you've not been deceiving (which you should not have been) then there is no blame on you in breaking up. The fact that you were not decieving means that you were being sincere thus there is no blame in breaking up when you have been sincere. This is the same with marriage only marriage is stricter with a contract in place which implies that one should make sure before deciding to marry and not take it casually.

Point 3) You can't cheat because of the oath in place as in you can't be seeing someone else (sex not included in seeing someone else) but the idea of seeing someone considering the oath in place is wrong. Same with marriage you can't see other people.

So anything wrong in that relationship so far?

Now consider all the above with the belief that sex is premitted in that relationship.

New complications that arise

Pregnancy. In the highly unlikely event that one becomes pregnant and can't avoid this in the right way then this verse is to be taken into account 2233
Increased intimacy. (will fit in the above guidelines)

Any other problems that are not covered by the above?

Also take into account this

2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

What is the unpracticality in this idea and where is the contradiction to the Quran and how does it go against the context of the whole of the Quran if people follow those guidelines?

SarahY

Peace Nima

This is tiring

There is no indication of sex being allowed without nikkah

Just because you can unguard your frj doesn?t mean you can have sex with them.

That?s my conclusion.

Sorry i should have been clearer. I meant this root
Ya-Miim-Nun = right side, right, right hand, oath, bless, lead to the right, be a cause of blessing, prosperous/fortunate/lucky.

In that case I would not say ?oath? as the strongest opinion on the word, maybe in isolation it works.

So in the case of the phrase MMA. From the above i think those whom you possess by oath makes the most sense in reference to verses we are discussing.
The point you make about possession also crossed my mind but think about it
I have a girlfriend (Is it much different to possessing a girlfriend whom you have an oath with?)
What else do you do in possessing a wife/fiance/gf? The way i see it, you possess eachother. You beloong to eachother. The Quran does not give us more authority over the MMA to my knowledge it just says that we possess them. This doesn't effect equality IMO.

It makes more sense because it makes it agree with your theory

It?s about you possessing her not you possessing each other.

Now consider your understanding that the MMA are slaves or dependent. Why would muhsinat have to become/be a slave or dependent in order for us to marry them (bear in mind that there is no other way that we can marry the muhsinat and that it is not forbiddent for us to make them their MMA)?

To be honest I don?t know. But i'll come up with a theory... If she is a slave shes under someone?s possession, if she becomes free thus independent she can be marriage material.

Point 1) MMA are those you possess by oath.

Oath or right hands possess. 1694 isn?t strictly related to MMA. Obviously doing wrong being deceitful is not acceptable.

So anything wrong in that relationship so far?

There was no nikkah, the assumption is that relationship is a personal one between male and female. People can have mmas of the same sex and that doesn?t mean you can go and have same sex relations. The relations aren?t of desire filled UNLESS YOU DO NIKKAH you can have that in it. it?s not like a gf/bf lovey dovey type, you made it that type.

When you can find me proof that you can have intimate sexual relations WITHOUT nikkah, I?ll consider some weighing to your theory. But to be honest I find none. I know you?re working hard to justify your theory but you gotta admit there are some gaps.

2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

What is the unpracticality in this idea and where is the contradiction to the Quran and how does it go against the context of the whole of the Quran if people follow those guidelines?

I dunno what you?re saying here

Nisaokom ?your women? are the ones you did nikkah with.. read back a few verses see the context it wouldn't mean mma.

Salam.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace Nima

This is tiring P

There is no indication of sex being allowed without nikkah

Just because you can unguard your frj doesnt mean you can have sex with them.

Thats my conclusion.

236 mentions BOTH MMAs and spouses, so how can there be "no indication of sex being allowed without marriage", when it is one and the same ruling for MMAs AND spouses? I could use the same faulty type of argument of yours, twist it, and say "there is no indication of sex being allowed with spouses" based on what you cited. Just because one can "unguard" one's private parts around one's spouse it doesn't mean that one can have sex with him/her ;D

SarahY

yeh progressive you can do that based on that one verse, then when you realise there are other verses in relation to azwaj, you'll see that's the lawful means of sex.. you'll know sex is ok with azwaj which fits with the nikkah bond.

I give up, if you guys wanna have sex without nikkah and justify it by your own way go ahead do whatever you want by your own means but I don't agree with you, and i won't say it is quranically ok until you prove it.

there's to many things neither of us know and ignore and just keep moving on in circles, i've had enough

salam.

san

Sorry Nima, i haven't read all your posts since my last on this thread. i think you missed the point about gender in the verse 2433 or maybe i haven't made that clear enough. you may compare that to 2433-34.

And anyway, i'm starting to lose interest in this subject because, i don't really see the point/benefit for our current society/time. I would also echo Sarah's comment that sex with MMA is never EXPLICITLY encouraged in AQ.

nimnimak_11

Salam Sarah

This is tiring

I understand
If you want we can end the discussion between me and you on this topic. But i'll still discuss if you want.

There is no indication of sex being allowed without nikkah

Just because you can unguard your frj doesn?t mean you can have sex with them.

That?s my conclusion.

Sarah how can we make unlawful something that is not made unlawful? Everything is lawful unless made unlawful otherwise i can claim that music is haram and then say that the Quran not mentioning that music is haram does not = music as halal. I've said this before

If you can explain how you can make something that is not unlawful to unlawful then bravo handshake

It makes more sense because it makes it agree with your theory

So if i say that's my wife or that's my son and so on, I don't own any of them and none of them own me?

It?s about you possessing her not you possessing each other.

But you do possess here.

To be honest I don?t know. But i'll come up with a theory... If she is a slave shes under someone?s possession, if she becomes free thus independent she can be marriage material.

So why would a free believing women suddenly have to become your slave in order for you to be able to marry them?

Oath or right hands possess. 1694 isn?t strictly related to MMA. Obviously doing wrong being deceitful is not acceptable.

I didn't mean say that they were strictly for MMA. It's just about oaths but as MMA are oath related, that verse applies to oaths with them also.

There was no nikkah, the assumption is that relationship is a personal one between male and female. People can have mmas of the same sex and that doesn?t mean you can go and have same sex relations. The relations aren?t of desire filled UNLESS YOU DO NIKKAH you can have that in it. it?s not like a gf/bf lovey dovey type, you made it that type.

You can have an MMA of the same sex if you don't consider it a fahasha or a transgression as then you can justify yourself Quranically based on MMA.
That however is subjective.

When you can find me proof that you can have intimate sexual relations WITHOUT nikkah, I?ll consider some weighing to your theory. But to be honest I find none. I know you?re working hard to justify your theory but you gotta admit there are some gaps.

When you prove to me that it is halal to listen to music using my mobile phone....then i'll accept your objection. But to be honest i find no such restrictions in the Quran (sorry about the sarcasm -X)

Nisaokom ?your women? are the ones you did nikkah with.. read back a few verses see the context it wouldn't mean mma.

How?

2219 They ask you about intoxicants and gambling. Say In them is great harm, and a benefit for the people; but their harm is greater than their benefit. And they ask you how much they are to give, say The excess. It is thus that God clarifies for you the revelations that you may think.
2220 In this world and the next; and they ask you regarding the orphans, say To fix their situation is best, and if you are to care for them, then they are your brothers. And God knows the corrupt from the good, and if God had wished He could have made things difficult. God is Noble, Wise.
2221 And do not marry the female polytheists until they believe. For a believing female servant is better than a polytheist even if she attracts you. And do not marry the male polytheists until they believe. For a believing male servant is better than a polytheist even if he attracts you. Those invite to the Fire, while God is inviting to the Paradise and forgiveness by His consent. He clarifies His revelations for the people that they may remember.
2222 And they ask you about the menstruations? Say It is harmful, so retire yourselves sexually from the women during the menstruations, and do not approach them until they are cleansed. When they are cleansed, then you may approach them as God has commanded you. God loves the repenters and He loves the cleansed.
2223 Your women are a cultivation for you. So approach your cultivation as you wish towards goodness. And be aware of God and know that you will meet Him, and give good news to the believers.

2221-223 talks about women. Not wives just women. 2221 talks about marrying a women 2222 talks about mensturation of a women and 2223 talks of the approach to women. It's about women not married women.

Peace

nimnimak_11

Sorry Nima, i haven't read all your posts since my last on this thread. i think you missed the point about gender in the verse 2433 or maybe i haven't made that clear enough. you may compare that to 2433-34.

And anyway, i'm starting to lose interest in this subject because, i don't really see the point/benefit for our current society/time. I would also echo Sarah's comment that sex with MMA is never EXPLICITLY encouraged in AQ.

No problem San peace
About your point on gender, i've commented on it in my last reply to Sarah and i do agree that sex with MMA is not encouraged but I also think that it's not encourage in marriage either. I'm arguing that it's not forbidden.

AlFajr

Peace nimnimak_11,

Sorry if this has already been asked. How is your theory related to the divorce proceedings in the Quran? i.e.

http//www.free-minds.org/divorce

nimnimak_11

Peace nimnimak_11,

Sorry if this has already been asked. How is your theory related to the divorce proceedings in the Quran? i.e.

http//www.free-minds.org/divorce

Peace Aalmakto

I will hopfully reply to you tomorow as this will most likely be a lengthy reply (if you don't mind) i really need sleep right now. It's 630am here and i have not slept at all yet &

AlFajr

(if you don't mind)

I don't mind. Enjoy your rest.

san

236 mentions BOTH MMAs and spouses, so how can there be "no indication of sex being allowed without marriage", when it is one and the same ruling for MMAs AND spouses? I could use the same faulty type of argument of yours, twist it, and say "there is no indication of sex being allowed with spouses" based on what you cited. Just because one can "unguard" one's private parts around one's spouse it doesn't mean that one can have sex with him/her ;D

Oh so true. Just because one can "unguard" one's private parts around one's spouse it doesn't mean that one can have sex with him/her anyway he/she likes. At least it isn't conclusive in that verse anyway.