How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Why not? Some of them are quite handsome imho.
Not sure if I'd like to have blue-skinned kids though ...
http//www.werner-dz.de/images/animationen/dschinn.gif
He meant he had a sexual dream...
though they might be handsome... they're going to be very naughty (harsh) to you http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incubus
Here's one of them
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/56/John_Henry_Fuseli_-The_Nightmare.JPG/741px-John_Henry_Fuseli-_The_Nightmare.JPG
You still want to eh?
rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl rotfl
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Where did i say that? I am trying argue that in a serious relationship, sex is morally and logically ok peace
Oh sorry, I misunderstood you then. So we're basically in agreement. peace
The only arguments i think stand are the arguments in terms of law and children. By law i mean the protection obtained from the law.
In my country, and many others, a person who fathers a child is legally obliged to pay for its maintenance, regardless of whether he is married to the mother or not. Imo that's the way it should be. I doubt though that laws like that will be implemented in any Islamic country any time soon since supposedly this will give rise to promiscous behaviour etc. But in fact what is happening is that women are being punished or forced into abortion, while males are free to have sex with whoever they please regardless of the consequences. Is that fair? I think not.
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Oh sorry, I misunderstood you then. So we're basically in agreement. peace
In my country, and many others, a person who fathers a child is legally obliged to pay for its maintenance, regardless of whether he is married to the mother or not. Imo that's the way it should be. I doubt though that laws like that will be implemented in any Islamic country any time soon since supposedly this will give rise to promiscous behaviour etc. But in fact what is happening is that women are being punished or forced into abortion, while males are free to have sex with whoever they please regardless of the consequences. Is that fair? I think not.
In islamic method... the women dump the child with the father when it's gotten into puberty.
I hope you're not blaming men for having sex even though women agree to enjoy. Because many a time those men don't want abortions. Many a time it's the society around that woman that would promote abortions.
Why would you demand non-islamic laws upon muslim?
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In islamic method... the women dump the child with the father when it's gotten into puberty.
Firstly, most women don't "dump" the child with the father, but rather sharia law in some countries allows fathers to get custody of their kid from a certain age on, regardless of whether the father has been in the child's life before or not, and often against the mother's will. Needless to say that in most cases the father then dumps the kid with some female relatives.
I've seen that happening many times. And, no, it is not "Islamic".
I hope you're not blaming men for having sex even though women agree to enjoy. Because many a time those men don't want abortions. Many a time it's the society around that woman that would promote abortions.
I am not blaming anyone. Personally, I have no issue with two consenting adults having sex, regardless of whether they are being married or not. I was simply pointing out what is the sad reality in many cases. And you are right, if abortions happen in such cases, they are usually due to society's pressure.
I am, however, blaming men who sleep with a woman and then refuse to assume responsibility in the case of a pregnancy. And unfortunately that happens quite often.
http//weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/797/fe1.htm
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Firstly, most women don't "dump" the child with the father, but rather sharia law in some countries allows fathers to get custody of their kid from a certain age on, regardless of whether the father has been in the child's life before or not, and often against the mother's will. Needless to say that in most cases the father then dumps the kid with some female relatives.
I've seen that happening many times. And, no, it is not "Islamic".
Well if women were smart, they'd dump the growing kids with the fathers... but they for some reason choose to hold on.
Yes from a certain age on... she can go get some more since quran 43... and go look after some orphans. She can remarry as according to quran 2432, she's got plenty of experience.
Against the mother's will??? Who on earth gives a damn about the mother's will over the god's will?
Seriously? How is it not islamic?
As far as I know... if the child stays with the mother... and the step father comes about... the likely hood of that child dying or being abused... is a reality
"Stepfathers abuse"
I am not blaming anyone. Personally, I have no issue with two consenting adults having sex, regardless of whether they are being married or not. I was simply pointing out what is the sad reality in many cases. And you are right, if abortions happen in such cases, they are usually due to society's pressure.
I am, however, blaming men who sleep with a woman and then refuse to assume responsibility in the case of a pregnancy. And unfortunately that happens quite often.
http//weekly.ahram.org.eg/2006/797/fe1.htm
"The ruling recognises El-Hennawi's claim to having had a secret urfi (customary) marriage with El-Fishawi even in the absence of documentation to prove it." -- that violates the quran 2235 and 425.
You can blame the woman and the woman's father for not teaching her enough, and the mother's father and mother etc etc.
"The first case of its kind to receive media attention across the Arab world, the Fishawi-Hennawi feud had shocked the public, especially after El-Fishawi -- the son of two high-profile actors, Farouq El-Fishawi and Somaya El-Alfi -- conceded having had an affair with El-Hennawi on the TV show El-Beit Beitak, having initially denied any connection with her."
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"There are in the Egyptian population 3.5 million girls over 35 years old who have not been married, and another 3.5 million over 20, not to mention 11 million unmarried men," he elaborates. "We have a marriage crisis, which together with the media-fuelled sexual need places the young in a deadlock." Many, he says, are in no financial or social position to marry."
You shall encourage those of you who are single to get married. They may marry the righteous among your male and female servants, if they are poor. GOD will enrich them from His grace. GOD is Bounteous, Knower.
And those who do not find marriage should refrain/be chaste until God enriches/suffices them from His grace/favour/blessing, and those who ask/wish/desire the destiny/fate/term (marriage) from what your rights owned/possessed, so write with them (contract), if you knew goodness in them, and give/bring them from God's property/possession/wealth which He gave you, and do not compel/force your young women/(F) youths on (to) the prostitution, if they (F) wanted/intended chastity, to desire the life the present's/worldly life's vanities/non-essentials, and who compels/forces them (F), so then God (is) from after their having been compelled/forced, forgiving, merciful.
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Concubinage
A concubine is generally a woman in an ongoing, matrimonial-like relationship with a man, whom she cannot marry for a specific reason. The reason may be because she is of lower social rank than the man or because the man is already married. Generally, only men of high economic and social status have concubines. Many historical rulers maintained concubines as well as wives.Historically, concubinage was frequently voluntary (by the woman and/or her family's arrangement), as it provided a measure of economic security for the woman involved.
Whether it has no legal status, as in ancient Rome, or is defined in law, as in ancient China, concubinage is akin, although inferior, to marriage. In opposition to those laws, traditional Western laws do not acknowledge the legal status of concubines, rather only admitting monogamous marriages. Any other relationship does not enjoy legal protection; and the woman is essentially a mistress.
Concubinus
In Ancient Rome, this was the title of a young male who was chosen by his master as a lover. Concubini were often referred to ironically in the literature of the time. Catullus assumes in the wedding poem 61.126 that the young manor lord has a concubinus who considers himself elevated above the other slaves.A European painting of an Emperor of China with his concubines inspecting his fantasy fishing fleet In the Bible
Among the Israelites, it was common for men to acknowledge their concubines, and such women enjoyed the same rights in the house as legitimate wives. The principal difference in the Bible between a wife and a concubine is that wives had dowries, while concubines did not.The concubine commanded the same respect and inviolability as the wife, and it was regarded as the deepest dishonour, for the man to whom she belonged, if other hands were laid upon her; David is portrayed as having become greatly dishonoured when his concubines had a sexual relationship with his son Absalom.
Since it was regarded as the highest blessing to have many children, while the greatest curse was childlessness, legitimate wives often gave their maids to their husbands to atone, at least in part, for their own barrenness, as in the cases of Sarah and Hagar, Leah and Zilpah, Rachel and Bilhah. The children of the concubine had equal rights with those of the legitimate wife; for example, King Abimelech was the son of Gideon and his concubine.
Later biblical figures such as Gideon, David, and Solomon had concubines in addition to many childbearing wives. For example, the Book of Kings claims that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubinage
Maybe MMA is a concubine and not a slave. If so then that would support Samia's analysis that its a romantic partner acknowledged as such by family and society resembling what we call today a live-in girlfriend and boyfriend.
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Concubinage
...Hold your horses big man.
Concubine c.1300, from L. concubina (fem.), from concumbere "to lie with," from com- "with" + cubare "to lie down."
It's not the same thing as ma malakat aymanukum, it just doesn't even sound like it relates to the the term there.
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For the OP
2432
And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.2433
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.The message in these two verses is quiet clear. The Quran is encouraging those who are single to get married so that they may refrain from committing adulterly.
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For the OP
2432
And marry off those among you that are single, and the good from among your male and female servants. If they are poor, then God will grant them from His grace. And God is Encompassing, Knowledgeable.2433
And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.The message in these two verses is quiet clear. The Quran is encouraging those who are single to get married so that they may refrain from committing adulterly.
You might want to have a more detailed look at 2433. It does not say "let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste untill....." It's been brought up on the thread before.
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peace nima,
You might want to have a more detailed look at 2433. It does not say "let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste untill....." It's been brought up on the thread before.
The thread is rather long, can you tell us what it says for the benefit of szuberi, or direct us to the specific post number, here is the word for word
2433
Wa lyastaAAfifi allatheena la yajidoona nikahan hatta...
and let be chaste/refrain those who not find marriage until...Assuming you translate it as "refrain", from what? (with reasoning ideally)
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peace nima,
The thread is rather long, can you tell us what it says for the benefit of szuberi, or direct us to the specific post number, here is the word for word
2433
Wa lyastaAAfifi allatheena la yajidoona nikahan hatta...
and let be chaste/refrain those who not find marriage until...Assuming you translate it as "refrain", from what? (with reasoning ideally)
Peace Wakas
Here is what i understand
2433 And let those who are not able to marry continue to abstain until God enriches them of His Bounty.
I see two possiblities. Either abstain from
a) sex or b) marriage
Now considering that the verse is advising those who have not the means to get married, i would think that when the verse says abstain, it means abstain from marriage and not sex.
Here's a comparison i did in my mind which helped me decide
And let those who are not able to marry continue to refrain from sex until God enriches them of His Bounty.
And let those who are not able to marry continue to refrain from marriage until God enriches them of His Bounty. -
I don't understand nimnimak_11, if they are not able to marry they'll obviously refrain from marriage since they are not able to marry? That is what "not being able to marry" would mean as it is? It is obviously pointing at something other than refraining from marriage as not being able to marry automatically means that they can't but refrain from marriage. You can refrain if you have the option to do something. If you don't have the option to do it you can't do it anyway so you're refraining from it one way or the other.
It's like over on the pork threads someone said pig meat means "meat that is bad" so the verse apparently said don't eat meat that is bad because it is bad.
Peace.
*edit to correct
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I don't understand nimnimak_11, if they are not able to marry they'll obviously refrain from marriage since they are not able to marry? That is what "not being able to marry" would mean as it is? It is obviously pointing at something other than not being able to marry as that automatically means that they can't but refrain from marriage.
It's like over on the pork threads someone said pig meat means "meat that is bad" so the verse apparently said don't eat meat that is bad because it is bad.
Peace.
Why didn't i see it that way -[
I think it was the "untill God enriches them of his bounty" part of the verse that lead me to my understanding.
I thought If you don't have the means for getting married then wait untill God provides with the means which sounded ok in my head.but the word abstain which is not the same as wait, would logically have to apply to something other than marriage and the only other thing i can think of is sex.
but then this creates a dilema IMO when taking verses such 235-6 into account as such verses say that sex with MMA leaves us blameless. Now either
a) Sex with MMA is blameless but it is better to abstain untill marriage (not a sin if you don't abstain) or
b) Sex with MMA can only happen after marriage which would then mean that there would be two sexual partners as i really can't see MMA being the same as azwaaj and morally i can't see sex being acceptable with more then one partner in a marriage so that just leaves one possiblity aSomething must be missing or misunderstood somewhere with regards to MMA and exclusivity of sex to marriage.
Peace
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I'm still researching this MMA thing just thought I'd share my thoughts on what seemed solid imo. I have some time now to really get into it. Btw, it's refreshing discussing with you, one doesn't have to deal with "that doesn't make sense but I'll still argue about it" D
Peace.
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I'm still researching this MMA thing just thought I'd share my thoughts on what seemed solid imo. I have some time now to really get into it. Btw, it's refreshing discussing with you, one doesn't have to deal with "that doesn't make sense but I'll still argue about it" D
Peace.
I'm glad you did and I thank you for it as it has influenced my thinking on this issue. After discussing with Aalmakto, i was in a completely uncertain state regarding this issue in terms of quranic advice. I was trying to find a verse that may perhaps suggest that abstaining from sex untill marriage might be a good thing as i still did not believe in there being anything concrete about sex being exclusive to marriage (I still don't because of MMAs) and that was the only other lead i felt i could take on the issue of relations with regards to the Quran. At the very least, 2433 (on current understanding) implies that it is better to abstain from sex untill marriage.
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I don't understand nimnimak_11, if they are not able to marry they'll obviously refrain from marriage since they are not able to marry? That is what "not being able to marry" would mean as it is?
it is not that obvious, people do get married even if they don't have means to support a family. May be you haven't heard of this story
Question I cannot afford to get married, so please advise me on what to do to avoid lustful sins in a way that is actually practical and effective.
Answer....
Once, a young man from the Prophet?s companions came to the Prophet (S) and said to him, ?My mother and I have had nothing at all for lunch today.? He expected that the Prophet (S) would give him something, but the Prophet (S) said to him,
?Get married!?
The young man thought that the Prophet (S) did not hear him properly, so he said again, ?O messenger of Allah, I have had nothing even for lunch today. How can I get married??
The Prophet (S) said again, ?Get married!?
The young man repeated his saying and the Prophet (S) said to him, ?Get married!?
The young man was astonished that the Prophet (S) did not give him anything, though the generous Prophet (S) would give his clothes and food even to his enemies.
The young man went back to his mother and told her what the Prophet (S) had said.
The mother said, ?Surely, the Prophet (S) sees a wisdom in that.? She asked for her son?s permission to ask for their neighbor?s hand. He agreed and the girl came to her husband?s house so simply and with no cost that the wedding was on the same day.
The young man thought to himself that he could not leave his wife with no means of livelihood. Therefore, he went out of the town to collect some firewood. He sold the firewood for two dirhams. He bought some food with one dirham and saved the other to buy an axe. When he had collected four dirhams, he could afford to buy an axe to cut firewood with, in order to not hurt his hands with thorns.
After some days, he could afford to buy a camel to carry the firewood on to the market. Every morning, he went to the desert to collect firewood with his axe and then carried it on his camel to the market to sell it. On the fortieth day of his marriage, the Prophet (S) saw him in Medina leading his camel. The Prophet (S) asked him about the camel. The young man told the Prophet (S) his story. The Prophet (S) said to him, ?Did I not tell you to get married?? Later on, this young man became one of the wealthiest people of Medina.Dear brother, do not fear poverty, because fearing poverty will keep you in it! Rely on Allah sincerely and try your best to find how the promise of Allah will shine in your joint life with your wife!
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it is not that obvious, people do get married even if they don't have means to support a family.
We aren't talking about financial problems here solely, the people in question may not be able to get married for any number of reasons. As for the story, how did he find so much firewood in the desert I wonder. With thorny wood no less. Odd.I'm glad you did and I thank you for it as it has influenced my thinking on this issue. After discussing with Aalmakto, i was in a completely uncertain state regarding this issue in terms of quranic advice. I was trying to find a verse that may perhaps suggest that abstaining from sex untill marriage might be a good thing as i still did not believe in there being anything concrete about sex being exclusive to marriage (I still don't because of MMAs) and that was the only other lead i felt i could take on the issue of relations with regards to the Quran. At the very least, 2433 (on current understanding) implies that it is better to abstain from sex untill marriage.
The MMA issue has been bothering me for a while now I must admit. Just the other day I was having a discussion about it and I realised I have to go through everything again to find a satisfactory conclusion. Previously when I've participated/read such, it hasn't been entirely spot on for me too so yeah, one of the priorities on my list.
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it is not that obvious, people do get married even if they don't have means to support a family. May be you haven't heard of this story
Question I cannot afford to get married, so please advise me on what to do to avoid lustful sins in a way that is actually practical and effective.
Answer....
Once, a young man from the Prophet?s companions came to the Prophet (S) and said to him, ?My mother and I have had nothing at all for lunch today.? He expected that the Prophet (S) would give him something, but the Prophet (S) said to him,
?Get married!?
The young man thought that the Prophet (S) did not hear him properly, so he said again, ?O messenger of Allah, I have had nothing even for lunch today. How can I get married??
The Prophet (S) said again, ?Get married!?
The young man repeated his saying and the Prophet (S) said to him, ?Get married!?
The young man was astonished that the Prophet (S) did not give him anything, though the generous Prophet (S) would give his clothes and food even to his enemies.
The young man went back to his mother and told her what the Prophet (S) had said.
The mother said, ?Surely, the Prophet (S) sees a wisdom in that.? She asked for her son?s permission to ask for their neighbor?s hand. He agreed and the girl came to her husband?s house so simply and with no cost that the wedding was on the same day.
The young man thought to himself that he could not leave his wife with no means of livelihood. Therefore, he went out of the town to collect some firewood. He sold the firewood for two dirhams. He bought some food with one dirham and saved the other to buy an axe. When he had collected four dirhams, he could afford to buy an axe to cut firewood with, in order to not hurt his hands with thorns.
After some days, he could afford to buy a camel to carry the firewood on to the market. Every morning, he went to the desert to collect firewood with his axe and then carried it on his camel to the market to sell it. On the fortieth day of his marriage, the Prophet (S) saw him in Medina leading his camel. The Prophet (S) asked him about the camel. The young man told the Prophet (S) his story. The Prophet (S) said to him, ?Did I not tell you to get married?? Later on, this young man became one of the wealthiest people of Medina.Dear brother, do not fear poverty, because fearing poverty will keep you in it! Rely on Allah sincerely and try your best to find how the promise of Allah will shine in your joint life with your wife!
But if somone says i don't have the means to get married, this should logically imply that it is impossible for them to get married
I know some people say this based on finance which would mean they could theoretically still get married but then they should say something like i don't have as much money as i'd like to get married but i can theoretically still get married.2433 is a quranic verse so it has to make logical sense.
So in this case not having the means to get married would be like not having someone to marry (whch then makes marriage impossible)Also thank you for the advice brother. I have not experienced poverty but have experienced something like it and greatly feared it. I was praying alot and trying to be positive. What i remembered was not to get preoccupied with this life and that no matter what God will provide. I came to a similiar situation again and the experience put only a temporary fear in me but was quickly gone where as before, this fear/stress which felt like hell lasted for at least 2 to 3 weeks.
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You might want to have a more detailed look at 2433. It does not say "let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste untill....." It's been brought up on the thread before.
If the Quran is advising the singles to abstain from marriage until they have means to get married, how can it not prohibit an adulterous relatioship on the other hand at the same time? If you believe that sex before marriage is OK, then why in 2432, we are told to encourage the single among us to get married? The only rationale comes to mind is to prevent immorality of being in an adulterous relationship. 2432 provides the perfect context to this situation and can not be ignored.
and if this was not the case, 242 would have said "married adulteress and married adulterer"
"The adulteress and the adulterer, you shall lash each of them with one hundred lashes, and do not let any pity overtake you regarding the system of God if you believe in God and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment"
