How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

nimnimak_11

Peace Wakas

Can you tell us what evidence you have of what you refer to as "protected sex" was practiced during the time of revelation? In fact, why not let us know the earliest evidence you have for this, in general.

Can you explain the relevance of this?

This just shows you do not know what it is or how to use the resource you refer to (i.e. PRL). Can you tell us where PRL states it is a complete representation of Classical Arabic Dictionaries or its content contains ALL possible meanings?

Nowhere. But I think the only thing this shows is that i was unaware of this fact not the other things you have suggested.

This will further help us assess the "quality" of your study, and thus the "quality" of your findings.

So long as it is a fair assessment (which takes into account all things) without bias no problem.

NB I did not want to comment, as I said previously, however your post may mislead others as to what PRL is. Hopefully most who use it actually know what it represents, unlike some.

If truly your intention of commenting was preventing the misleading of others with regards to what PRL is, then a simple sentence stating what PRL is would have sufficed. You did more than this and commented (despited your claim of not wanting to claim) which i think conveys you did want to comment. It is however not so fair to comment or criticise when and where it suits one to do so. I am talking about a person not responding to a comment or criticism when it suits them with the excuse of not wanting to discuss or argue anymore only to come back and argue sometime later avoiding what was directed at them.

nimnimak_11

Selam )

Verse 2433 clearly points out that those who are maintained by your oaths are those whom you are engaged to. It does not include everybody maintained by any oath you have made. That would not be logical at all.

Salam Bosnian thinker peace

In the case of 2433 it looks like it is talking of someone your engaged to and i agree with this. But when looking at for example this

3353 O you who believe, do not enter the homes of the prophet unless you are invited to a meal, without you forcing such an invitation. But if you are invited, you may enter. And when you finish eating, you shall leave, without staying to wait for a narrative. This used to bother the prophet, and he was shy to tell you. But God does not shy away from the truth. And if you ask his wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. This is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not for you to harm the messenger of God, nor that you should marry his wives after him. This is indeed a gross offence with God.
3354 If you reveal anything, or hide it, God is fully aware of all things.
3355 There is no sin upon them before their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those who are maintained by their oaths. And be aware of God, for God is witness over all things.

Basically what I am getting at is. It is not pure for men to ask the Prophet's wives "something" unless behind a barrier.... EXCEPT for the Prophet's Wives fathers, sons etc. and MMAs (see the Arabic, it is clearly about them). So verse 3355 is implying that the Prophet's wives had MMAs!

then i think it's safe to conclude that MMA must also entail other meanings.

Wakas

peace nimnimak,

The relevance is you have possibly inserted an impossible translation into the verse, i.e. something highly unlikely or not invented at the time, hence the request for evidence. Quite simple really.

But I think the only thing this shows is that i was unaware of this fact not the other things you have suggested.

Thanks for making clear to the forum you were unaware what PRL is, and thus used it in your studies and posted views without knowing what the resource you were using actually represented.

By the way, I felt I answered your Qs to a reasonable level. I am more than happy for forum members to read our exchanges and make up their own minds.

nimnimak_11

Peace Wakas

The relevance is you have possibly inserted an impossible translation into the verse, i.e. something highly unlikely or not invented at the time, hence the request for evidence. Quite simple really.

You are refering to the past in a way which is not relevant in the right way. What I suggeted was that if we for exmaple take the verse to mean And if ye divorce them before touching them without intervention or interference..... it is a closer reference to sex than all the other meanings (provided by PRL) This would apply to the past whilst also applying to now. However in the case of now, there are condoms which intervene and interfere. Thus whilst it applies to the past, there is slightly more it can apply to with respect to today. This is what i meant by the irrelevance of the existence of condoms in the past.

Thanks for making clear to the forum you were unaware what PRL is, and thus used it in your studies and posted views without knowing what the resource you were using actually represented.

To state "unaware what PRL is" is surely different to acknowledging that i was unaware that PRL is not a complete representation of Classical Arabic Dictionaries or its content contains ALL possible meanings. Is it not? How have you reasoned here?

By the way, I felt I answered your Qs to a reasonable level. I am more than happy for forum members to read our exchanges and make up their own minds.

If that's how you feel. I don't see the point in pointing things out from our exchanges. It is there to be seen.

Bosnian_Thinker

Salam Bosnian thinker peace

In the case of 2433 it looks like it is talking of someone your engaged to and i agree with this. But when looking at for example this

then i think it's safe to conclude that MMA must also entail other meanings.

Selam peace peace

I ran across this verse while I was studying the other day. I am kind of confused about this. Verse 2433 clearly points out that those maintained by your oaths are those you are engaged to; it is possible that there may be additional meanings. Also, if the verse you quoted for me is meant for women in general and not the prophet's wives, then we would not need to talk about this, but it kind of seems to me that it is referring to them. I'll have to do more research on this subject.

Nafi

Well about MMA, its perfectly acceptable that it has multiple meanings, which is typical of old arabic.

Bosnian_Thinker

Well about MMA, its perfectly acceptable that it has multiple meanings, which is typical of old arabic.

Yes, and which is typical of all languages.

peace

nimnimak_11

Peace all

Earlier on i said

Another verse to consider 2237
And if ye divorce them before tamasshunna, but after the fixation of a dower for them, then the half of the dower (Is due to them), unless they remit it or (the man's half) is remitted by him in whose hands is the marriage tie; and the remission (of the man's half) is the nearest to righteousness. And do not forget Liberality between yourselves. For Allah sees well all that ye do.

The root of tamassuhunna
Miim-Siin-Siin = To meet or touch or feel a thing with the hand, touch a thing without intervention or interference, strike or smite, afflict or befall, be distressing or difficult of accomplishment.
massa vb. (1)
perf. act. 2214, 3140, 795, 7188, 7201, 868, 1012, 1012, 1021, 1110, 1288, 1554, 1653, 1767, 1783, 2146, 2183, 2414, 3033, 3841, 398, 3949, 4149, 4150, 4151, 5038, 7020, 7021
impf. act. 280, 2236, 2237, 324, 347, 3120, 3140, 3174, 573, 617, 617, 649, 773, 10107, 1148, 1164, 11113, 1548, 1920, 1945, 2435, 26156, 3349, 3535, 3535, 3618, 3961, 5679
n.vb. 2275, 5448

It may be of interest to note that one of the meanings for this root is touch a thing without intervention or interference perhaps this could be a reference to unprotected sex? Because in protected sex, there is intervention and interference. It may look as though my suggestion here is being forced on but if one looks at verse 2433 and compares it with 2237, does it not then fall into place? Take into account that the only possible meanings for the root of tamassuhunna are
To meet or touch or feel a thing with the hand, touch a thing without intervention or interference, strike or smite, afflict or befall, be distressing or difficult of accomplishment.

I take this back. This verse should explain why

{ }

Sahih International (583) And those who pronounce thihar from their wives and then go back on what they said - then the freeing of a slave before they touch one another. That is what you are admonished thereby; and Allah is Acquainted with what you do.

Here the same word is used but in this case it would not make sense to take the word to mean unprotected sex as surely in this case it is also refering to protected sex. It could be even refering to more.

Nafi

Can anyone provide all verse (alongside possible context) with MMA

Wakas

peace Nafi, all,

These days it is extremely easy to find every occurrence of any word or phrase.

All you do is if you know just one verse where this word or term occurs, go to corpus.quran.com and type in the chapterverse number. It brings up the word for word for you, then you scroll down to the word you want, click on it and it brings up every occurrence in The Quran with that specific word form and displays the root.

I strongly recommend everyone who does not use Quran study tools, to do so www.StudyQuran.org

You will find the quality of your Quran study to improve dramatically.

Even if you are a master of Classical Arabic. Because even if you have such knowledge, unless you can couple that with a Quran concordance and multiple translations/viewpoints you wont get far.

How to read and study The Quran?
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

Nafi

Thank you so much wakas, I intend to study classical arabic

Amazigh

Peace all
peace

This is an article i wrote. My first on a topic in Quran. If you read it, please let me know what you think

The purpose of this article is to argue against the widely accepted belief that the Quran prohibits sex before marriage. I intend to do this by using the Quran to justify a case of pre-marital sex where it is acceptable in the light of the Quran.

Unless you take the root Zay-Nun-Ya or Fa-Ha-Shin to literally mean premarital sex, the prohibition of sex before marriage is not stated in the Quran. There are also no verses in the Quran where sex is made exclusive to marriages. Thus sex is not exclusive to marriages and can be done outside of wedlock. The fact that sex is not explicitly prohibited does not mean that it is ok to have sex with anyone under any circumstance. The Quran places restrictions and limitations which prevent such a scenario. There are two limitations which I will point out

The first limitation I will explain via the following Verses of 235-6

235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their spouses (azwaaj), or those who are maintained by their oaths (ma malakat aymanukum), they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.

From these verses, it is clear that none should have access to the private parts except the following two categories Spouses (Azwaaj) and those who are committed to you by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum) Thus SO FAR sex can only be done with those two categories of people. However this presents us with a problem as anyone could be committed to an individual by oath. Thus theoretically if an orphan is committed to you by oath.....then he can have access to your private parts.
This is where the second limitation comes in

Fa-Ha-Shin which has the possible following meanings
became excessive/immoderate/enormous/exorbitant/overmuch/beyond measure, foul/bad/evil/unseemly/indecency/abominable, lewd/gross/obscene, committing excess which is forbidden, transgress the bounds/limits, avaricious, adultery/fornication.

An example of the usage of Fa-Ha-Shin can be seen in 1732 And do not come near adultery, for it is lewdness and an evil path.

If we take lewdness into account, then it becomes clear that showing your private parts to an orphan who is committed to you by oath is forbidden (unless you have a really good and un-lewd reason to do so which is very unlikely) Thus (though highly unlikely) no one can claim that they were showing their private parts to their orphan and then justify themselves with verses such as 235-6. Such an act will go strongly against reason and heart in which their justification becomes invalid just by that alone. Nevertheless for the purposes of this article, it is an act of lewdness indicated by reason and heart and thus prohibited by the Quran. Thus this takes out the possibility of all gross acts such as the example given.
I will now discuss some of the possible objections to my argument.

One possible objection to my argument, is the following verse 2433

And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty. And if those who are maintained by your oaths seek to consummate the marriage, then document it with them if you find that they are ready, and give them from the wealth of God which He has bestowed upon you. And do not force your young women to need if they have desired to be independent, in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this worldly life. And if anyone has compelled them, then for their compulsion, God is Forgiving, Merciful.

It requests of those who are unable to marry to remain chaste implying that they should not have sex until they have married. I disagree with this translation and understanding for the following reason

If we look at a word by word translation, the word chaste actually isn?t there. What?s actually used is abstain. But his could mean to abstain from something different to sex such as abstaining from unlawful sex and not sex as a whole.

Another possible objection
It may be argued that the permission to expose the private parts to those you are committed to by oath given in the Quran does not include the permission to have sex. This is not the case as in order for something to be prohibited, it needs to be stated in the Quran. If it is not stated, then it is not prohibited and as sex is not prohibited beyond the limits already discussed, then it is permitted. Consider the following If we are to say that the private parts (in the case of those who are committed to an individual by oath) are for exposure only and nothing more, then this becomes problematic. Imagine a surgeon attempting to operate on an individual?s private part. The surgeon can see the private part of the individual as the surgeon is committed to the individual by oath however the surgeon will not be able to go beyond seeing the private part (even though the individual has consented to operating on the private part) and thus be unable to a operate on the individual. This would be the case if we were to accept that the private parts can only be exposed and nothing more can be done to them.

Moving on....
The concept of lewdness is subjective. What may appear lewd to an individual may appear normal to another. Consider a one night stand. Some will consider the act as lewd and some will think it acceptable. Topics such as a one night stand are controversial and open to debate. However when the act of sex is done between a couple who are both morally upright and are comfortable with each other and are not rushing one another and it does not go against their reason and heart prior to the act, then I see no controversy in such a case. I doubt that in such a case there is any lewdness. If anyone objects to this, please indicate the lewdness you pick out from this.

In conclusion, pre-marital sex is not prohibited in the Quran. There are clear limitations and subjective limitations. Issues such as a one night stand may possibly be justified in the light of the Quran. As outrageous as this claim may appear to some, I truly believe that it may hold some truth.

The end.

Some addiotional points

In a discussion with a friend, when attempting to argue against one night stands, I could not get anywhere as his argument was clearly the more reasonable and stronger. I will present a revised summary of our discussion What could be wrong with two healthy (no disabilities such as down-syndrome or any influence of alcohol) and responsible people agreeing to have sex on one night even though they have just met on the night? I responded by saying that that would make sex meaningless and without passion. But would it necessarily do this? I cannot tell. And even if it does, how could it be wrong when both have agreed to it and it?s not harming anyone else? (please note this was an argument with my friend which I have attempted to summarise. What I have written down isn?t exactly what was said but rather the key points pointed out and discussed. My purpose of this example was to show the importance of reason and how someone like my friend could justify himself in the sight of God)

I could not answer him and considered that he might be right and that my rejection of his view is purely based on my upbringing and not of my reasoning. My heart did object to it at first but I tried to view the act in a different and more positive light in order to be unbiased, and my heart did not object to it anymore. Before i was viewing this act in a negative light and that is why i believe my heart objected to it then. But both scenarios that i attmepted to comprehend can take place in reality. The negative more likely to occure then the positive. I dislike the idea of a one night stand personally.

If I am not mistaken, virginity in the Iranian culture is seen as a good thing and I believe that this is similar amongst Quranists. Ironically virginity in some places and in the sight of some people is seen as a bad thing. With the use of reason and the Quran, hopefully we will get to the truth.

peace

I'm shocked by this news. If you are doubt, you can better not do it. tempt The servants of God are not in doubt. And what about fatherless children left behind with mother, by sex before marriage? And centuries ago, when there was no pill and condom?

Ahoedoe bilahie mina shetan irazjim >

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. pr

And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.

And as for the two who are guilty of indecency from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.

And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our inspiration and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

(This is) a chapter which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful.

(As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

The fornicator shall not marry any but a fornicatress or idolatress, and (as for) the fornicatress, none shall marry her but a fornicator or an idolater; and it is forbidden to the believers.

And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,

Except those who repent after this and act aright, for surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And (as for) those who accuse their wives and have no witnesses except themselves, the evidence of one of these (should be taken) four times, bearing Allah to witness that he is most surely of the truthful ones.

O you who believe! do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan, and whoever follows the footsteps of the Shaitan, then surely he bids the doing of indecency and evil; and were it not for Allah's grace upon you and His mercy, not one of you would have ever been pure, but Allah purifies whom He pleases; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.

Surely those who accuse chaste believing women, unaware (of the evil), are cursed in this world and the hereafter, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts; that is purer for them; surely Allah is Aware of what they do.

And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their coverings over their bosoms, and not display their ornaments except to their husbands or their fathers, or the fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or those whom their right hands possess, or the male servants not having need (of women), or the children who have not attained knowledge of what is hidden of women; and let them not strike their feet so that what they hide of their ornaments may be known; and turn to Allah all of you, O believers! so that you may be successful.

Surely the men who submit and the women who submit, and the believing men and the believing women, and the obeying men and the obeying women, and the truthful men and the truthful women, and the patient men and the patient women and the humble men and the humble women, and the almsgiving men and the almsgiving women, and the fasting men and the fasting women, and the men who guard their private parts and the women who guard, and the men who remember Allah much and the women who remember-- Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a mighty reward.

peace

loxbox13

u guys realised it's not easy to be pure, a true muslim, sex sex sex, is the weakness of mankind, satan loves it , well, i don't believe a one night stand is ok, i like it though , i play a girl trying to act as a gentleman who's cool to get he to bed, it's a whole lie in my personality i pull up,
the problem is the quran system is a man and woman must be rightous as best as they can, so if u like a girl be honest and sincere and see if it's the girl u like and try to love her , if u do than it easy for u to not desobey allah, cause when u love her it's easy from your side to marry her, but one night stand? still loving the life of this world
your research look like looking for an ok for one night stand LOL
like a website who did so much typing to proove that anal sex with the wife is ok , the verse that prohibited it in in front of him, but the love of anal sex made him proove from the koran that it's ok

Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear God. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe.
your wifes are cloths for you and you're cloths for them
They ask thee concerning the New Moons. Say they are but signs to mark fixed periods of time in (the affairs of) men, and for pilgrimage. It is no virtue if ye enter your houses from the back; it is virtue if ye fear Allah. Enter houses through the proper doors and fear Allah that ye may prosper

Bigmo

What happened to the author of this thread? He vanished?

youssef4342

Peace to everyone who said peace...
Hmm what about the verse whether it advocates Celibacy?

YAMU

I'm shocked by this news. o If you are doubt, you can better not do it. tempt The servants of God are not in doubt. And what about fatherless children left behind with mother, by sex before marriage? And centuries ago, when there was no pill and condom?

Ahoedoe bilahie mina shetan irazjim >D