How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

nimnimak_11

Peace to everyone who said peace...
Hmm what about the verse whether it advocates Celibacy?

And peace to you also brother

If you could find the verse, i might be able to give an opnion but I honestly don't remember any verse that advocates celibacy.

nimnimak_11

Slam all,

The God's word mustn't create the problem, but it makes peace among people. When reading the God's word we must ponder over all verses, because the path as we have claimed is right for us, but is not right to others. When reading lexicon, there are many scholars giving the meaning, all cited Classical Arabic, so which one is authentic and who guaranteed? We couldn't play with fire if we are doubtful about the meaning. What should we do?

In my opnion, put reason first since that is less likely to be mistaken than interpretation. For example here is one case where reason should have priority

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and beat them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

Now reason is pretty clear on this. Interpretation would also appear pretty clear to some people. But if someone does beat their wife, they are physically harming someone else (thus more caution must be there before deciding to act on an interpretation) when their reason and hear is against this. Since as a last resort how is beating the wife gonna truely and effectively solve the problem?? But if someone decides not to carru out such an act on the basis of reason having priority and very clear accuracy in this case, then they may later come to discover another potential translation of the verse

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

But sometimes reason should have less priority when interpretation is clear and less is at stake. For exmaple 53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful

Personally it makes no sense to me to completely prohibit pig meat when so many other things could have been mentioned. Why single this out? I don't know. But the verse is pretty clear and not much is lost by abstaining from pig meat so given belief in Quran, reason suggests keep off of pig meat.

Typically this is how i'd judge when it comes to the Quran and its upholding.

Bigmo

In my opnion, put reason first since that is less likely to be mistaken than interpretation. For example here is one case where reason should have priority

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and beat them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

Now reason is pretty clear on this. Interpretation would also appear pretty clear to some people. But if someone does beat their wife, they are physically harming someone else (thus more caution must be there before deciding to act on an interpretation) when their reason and hear is against this. Since as a last resort how is beating the wife gonna truely and effectively solve the problem?? But if someone decides not to carru out such an act on the basis of reason having priority and very clear accuracy in this case, then they may later come to discover another potential translation of the verse

434 The men are to support the women with what God has bestowed upon them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright females are dutiful; keeping private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those females from whom you fear desertion, then you shall advise them, and abandon them in the bedchamber, and separate from them. If they respond to you, then do not seek a way over them; God is Most High, Great.

But sometimes reason should have less priority when interpretation is clear and less is at stake. For exmaple 53 Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was dedicated to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on altars, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is vile. Today the rejecters have given up from your system, so do not be concerned by them, but be concerned by Me. Today I have perfected your system for you, and completed My blessings upon you, and I have approved submission as the system for you. So, whoever is forced by severe hunger and not seeking sin, then God is Forgiving, Merciful

Personally it makes no sense to me to completely prohibit pig meat when so many other things could have been mentioned. Why single this out? I don't know. But the verse is pretty clear and not much is lost by abstaining from pig meat so given belief in Quran, reason suggests keep off of pig meat.

Typically this is how i'd judge when it comes to the Quran and its upholding.

Leviticus 111-47
And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, ?Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth. Whatever parts the hoof and is cloven-footed and chews the cud, among the animals, you may eat. Nevertheless, among those that chew the cud or part the hoof, you shall not eat these The camel, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. And the rock badger, because it chews the cud but does not part the hoof, is unclean to you. ...

Leviticus 117-8
And the pig, because it parts the hoof and is cloven-footed but does not chew the cud, is unclean to you. You shall not eat any of their flesh, and you shall not touch their carcasses; they are unclean to you

Deuteronomy 141-29
?You are the sons of the Lord your God. You shall not cut yourselves or make any baldness on your foreheads for the dead. For you are a people holy to the Lord your God, and the Lord has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. ?You shall not eat any abomination. These are the animals you may eat the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roebuck, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope, and the mountain sheep. ...

Isaiah 654
Who sit in tombs, and spend the night in secret places; who eat pig's flesh, and broth of tainted meat is in their vessels;

Leviticus 723-24
?Speak to the people of Israel, saying, You shall eat no fat, of ox or sheep or goat. The fat of an animal that dies of itself and the fat of one that is torn by beasts may be put to any other use, but on no account shall you eat it.

Isaiah 6617
?Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the Lord.

So it seems it has to do with the type of animal it is. But i am not sure what this cud and chew stuff is.

MaverickMonotheist

So it seems it has to do with the type of animal it is. But i am not sure what this cud and chew stuff is.

Peace Bigmo,

It refers to herbivores that are ruminants. They partially digest their food, then they chew it again. Cows, giraffes, etc. do it. The Torah says that a land animal had to meet two conditions to be edible it had to be a ruminant, and it had to have a cloven hoof. A pig has a cloven hoof, but does not ruminate. Interestingly, a camel does not meet these two conditions, but it is acceptable to be eaten according to the Qur'an.

A pig is particularly singled out in the Qur'an, in my opinion, because of what Antiochus Epiphanes did

"In 167 BC the Seleucid ruler Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the Jewish temple by setting up an altar to Zeus over the holy altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which was the center of Jewish religious life. Antiochus also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem."

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan#Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes_and_Hellenization

Peace,
Joel

Kaiokenred

Peace Bigmo,

It refers to herbivores that are ruminants. They partially digest their food, then they chew it again. Cows, giraffes, etc. do it. The Torah says that a land animal had to meet two conditions to be edible it had to be a ruminant, and it had to have a cloven hoof. A pig has a cloven hoof, but does not ruminate. Interestingly, a camel does not meet these two conditions, but it is acceptable to be eaten according to the Qur'an.

A pig is particularly singled out in the Qur'an, in my opinion, because of what Antiochus Epiphanes did

"In 167 BC the Seleucid ruler Antiochus Epiphanes defiled the Jewish temple by setting up an altar to Zeus over the holy altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem, which was the center of Jewish religious life. Antiochus also sacrificed a pig on the altar in the Temple in Jerusalem."

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritan#Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes_and_Hellenization

Peace,
Joel

I really doubt Allah would prohibit eating pig meat for such reasons.

Mino-taur

Salaam everyone.

Have not had enough time to read all the posts so i do not know if the issue has been resolved but i will still reply anyway ^_^

Nimnimak_11, you say instead of chaste, the words abstain from Unlawful sex can be used instead. you also say that sex can be done with two categories of people; The possesion of our right hands (MMA) and our wives.

That means we can only have Unlawful sex with our wives and MMA. However any sex with our wives is Lawful. so this then brings up the point of MMA. A part in 425 of the Quran tells us that if we cannot marry the normal women then we should marry the believing women which our right hands possess.

?And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent
female believers, then from those maintained
by your oaths (Ma Malakat Aymanukum)
of the believing young women..." - 425

From this we can conclude, that if we want to have sex with anyone then we MUST marry first.

Please forgive me if you have found my post offensive in anyway, that is not my intention. May Allah have mercy on us and forgive us for our mistakes.

nimnimak_11

Salaam everyone.

Have not had enough time to read all the posts so i do not know if the issue has been resolved but i will still reply anyway ^_^

Nimnimak_11, you say instead of chaste, the words abstain from Unlawful sex can be used instead. you also say that sex can be done with two categories of people; The possesion of our right hands (MMA) and our wives.

That means we can only have Unlawful sex with our wives and MMA. However any sex with our wives is Lawful. so this then brings up the point of MMA. A part in 425 of the Quran tells us that if we cannot marry the normal women then we should marry the believing women which our right hands possess.

?And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent
female believers, then from those maintained
by your oaths (Ma Malakat Aymanukum)
of the believing young women..." - 425

From this we can conclude, that if we want to have sex with anyone then we MUST marry first.

Please forgive me if you have found my post offensive in anyway, that is not my intention. May Allah have mercy on us and forgive us for our mistakes.

Salam Mino-taur

So if you can have lawful sex with your wife and unlawful sex with your wife, what makes the difference between the two? As in what constitutes lawful sex with wife as opposed to unlawful sex with wife according to the Quran?
Also which part of 425 has resulted in your conclusion that we must first marry before sex?
There was nothing offensive in your post Mino-taur

Peace

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

What is the difference between a wife or a girlfriend?

A couple of witnesses and a few paper work?

I think that this argument is not looking at it from a human relationship point of view which is what sex is about. Having sex with a prostitute for example is not the same as having sex with a partner of some sort. A prostitute does not care about your behavior but a wife and girlfriend does. This is because there is an oath between the two of you and this oath is "just like I do not want you to cheat on me, then i also won't cheat on you". It does not make a difference between a wife or girfriend. Wife is a legal arrangement and perhaps a social function, but morally cheating cause harm and pain to somebody else and creates distrust. It does not matter whether she is a wife or girlfriend. Marriage does provide more assurances for a couple that something is serious. But not all marriages are such.

Thats how i look at it. Its about relationship between two people. Now of course if your wife does not mind you sleeping around and you don't mind her sleeping around then i guess you can do as you please. But you ain't going to find too many couple like that. Thats how I read the verses.

But to say that there is a profound difference between two partners who are married and two who are not is not accurate. They are legally different but even then many societies eleminated those two differences easily. Thats because the only difference is a bunch of paper work. No more or less. Its a legal issue and not a moral difference. Cheating and betrayal is cheating and betrayal. Sex is an intimate act between two people and human relationship dictates whats moral and not. Prostitution is a business transaction and in that case the issue is very different. Now if you have a girlfiend or a wife and mess with a protitute then its is also a sin. Cause how would you(a man) feel if your woman had sex with a male escort service behind your back?

As they say, cheating often requires lying and concealing. Whether its with a wife or girlfriend. A bunch of paper work is not going to make it more acceptable.

Do to others how you want them to do to you.

The real question is why won't people get married? Thats the question we should ask since it might tell us about their ultimate intention. From experience, it has to do with the legal framework or perhaps many don't bother. Seperating between the two would only convince a partner that is OK to cheat on any girl as long as she is not my wife or husband. He or she will learn fast it ain't going to make much difference if one of them gets caught. One will call it divorce. The other breaking up. Only difference is a bunch of paper work. That paper work is based on human understanding and does not always reflect morality. Just make the girlfriend also legal. End of story. See how fictitous the difference is.

Many Muslim men go out of their societies and think they can do what they want since many societies have this girlfriend boyfriend thing. They learn quickly it ain't what they thought it was. Cause there ain't no difference. And to prove that here is some professional research

http//paa2005.princeton.edu/download.aspx?submissionId=51389

The message. A cheater is a cheater. And how he behaves prior to a marriage is how he will probably behave if he gets married. A bunch of paper work won't change anything. A person's prior habits before marriage is THE MOST important indicator of his behavior if he evers signs a bunch of paper work thinking now its different. It ain't.

Also this about cheating in schools

Study Once a Cheater, Always a Cheater
By Debra Viadero on October 30, 2009 934 AM | 4 Comments | No TrackBacks
The next time you find yourself thinking, "kids will be kids," think again. Survey results released yesterday by the Josephson Institute on Ethics suggest that kids who cheat in high school are far more likely than non-cheaters to lie to their spouses, bosses, and employees when they grow up.

The results are based on a 2008 survey of nearly 7,000 people in five age groups 17 and under, 18-24, 25-40, 41-50, and over 50. The study found, first of all, that younger generations are far more likely to behave dishonestly than older generations?or at least to admit it to researchers. Among high schoolers, 64% said they had cheated on an exam in 2008, 42% admitted lying to save money, and 30% copped to having stolen something from a store.

The study also found that, regardless of how old they are now, people who cheated in high school were three times more likely to lie to a customer (20% vs. 6%) or inflate an insurance claim (6% vs. 2%) and more than twice as likely to inflate an expense claim (10% vs. 4%) than people who never cheated in high school. The high school cheaters were also twice as likely to lie to or deceive their boss (20% vs. 10%) or lie about their address to get a child into a better school (29% vs. 15%) and one-and-a-half times more likely to lie to spouse or significant other (35% vs. 22%) or cheat on taxes (18% vs. 13%).

If that's not reason enough to boost character education efforts in schools, here's another A growing number of studies are beginning to suggest that some character education programs can improve kids' academic achievement, too.

http//blogs.edweek.org/edweek/inside-school-research/2009/10/study_once_a_cheater_always_a.html

Although this research is too simplistic and could be biased. But it does put some light as why adultery is an ethical and moral issue. But to say thats its so because you signed some paper work and its less so if you didn't sign those paper work is naive. Cheating means you have taken some oath, whether spoken or assumed to be loyal and honest. At least to the best of your ability.

Notice the Quran in marriage emphaises living together and financial obligations. Women who sell theselves cheap are doing so at their own risk. Since men have the financial priveleges in a society and women get the burden of children. Thats what seperates the two. But its a human seperation based on law and orer. Just make the same rule apply to any couple who live together(married or not) and have birth. Women need to make the right decisions and each should carry the burden of risk equally and not always the women should carry the risk. Thats why many societies now force financial obligations on any couple. So what do people now do? They use contraception and birth control. There upon women most of the time come out losing. Its finances that seperates the two(wife versus girlfriend) so just impliment that financial obligation on any couple, whether they signed some paper works or brought two witness from the street or not.

If you have sex than the obligation is there. Because there is an oath between the two of you whether its stated in a church or mosque or not. Just cheat on a girlfriend and see what happens.

This is an excellent post, Bigmo! I agree with this stand point.

youssef4342

Peace back to everyone who said peace,
"And they who guard their private parts; Except from their 1) wives or 2) those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed - (235,6)

What gives us the right to have intimate relationships with people who are not 1) wives, or 2) those under our possession?

Girlfriends and boyfriends are not wives, and not under our possession.

No longer a Sunna-rejecter

Peace back to everyone who said peace,
"And they who guard their private parts; Except from their 1) wives or 2) those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed - (235,6)

What gives us the right to have intimate relationships with people who are not 1) wives, or 2) those under our possession?

Girlfriends and boyfriends are not wives, and not under our possession.

You cannot possess a human being!! And MMA does not mean "what is under your possession"!

Ya-Miim-Nun = right side, right, right hand, oath, bless, lead to the right, be a cause of blessing, prosperous/fortunate/lucky.

MMA = Those from whom who possess an oath/are committed to you by oath.

Kaiokenred

Peace back to everyone who said peace,
"And they who guard their private parts; Except from their 1) wives or 2) those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed - (235,6)

What gives us the right to have intimate relationships with people who are not 1) wives, or 2) those under our possession?

Girlfriends and boyfriends are not wives, and not under our possession.

How do you know that? As far as I know today's girlfriend/boyfriend could be the concept of wife/husband in Islam

Mino-taur

Salaam nimnimak_11
Thank you for replying to my post. I will first clarify my post as it seems i may have rushed it (as it was a bit late and i was sleepy).
In your first original post (please refer back to it) you stated this

The first limitation I will explain via the following Verses of 235-6

235 And they keep covered their private parts.
236 Except around their spouses (azwaaj), or those who are maintained by their oaths (ma malakat aymanukum), they are free from blame.
237 But whoever seeks anything beyond this, then these are the transgressors.

From these verses, it is clear that none should have access to the private parts except the following two categories Spouses (Azwaaj) and those who are committed to you by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum) Thus SO FAR sex can only be done with those two categories of people.?
You have shown that sex can only be done with Spouses (Azwaaj) those committed to you by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum). Then you go on to say
?If we look at a word by word translation, the word chaste actually isn?t there. What?s actually used is abstain. But his could mean to abstain from something different to sex such as abstaining from unlawful sex and not sex as a whole?.

So let?s assume that instead of chaste, the verse says abstain from Unlawful sex (as you suggested). Thus far, it can be concluded that the Quran says abstain from unlawful sex unless it is your Spouse or someone committed to you by oath.

Before we go any further, Unlawful sex is sex that transgresses the limits set by the Quran. You clarified these limits above.
Unlawful sex with your spouse is not possible as ANY sex is lawful with your spouse. This leaves us with being permitted to have unlawful sex with those committed to us by oaths (ma malakat aymanukum).

This is why you think sex before marriage is permissible, because according to the verses you have read, this is the only category of people which we can have unlawful sex (i.e. premarital sex).

However, my argument is that the Quran tells us we cannot have unlawful sex with people committed to us by oath (ma malakat aymaukum). I say this because of what is said in Quran 425

?And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent
female believers, then from those maintained
by your oaths (Ma Malakat Aymanukum)
of the believing young women..." - 425

This verse tells us that if for some reason we cannot marry the normal (i.e. independent) women then we should marry those maintained by our oaths.

Remember that, normally, to have sex with someone you must have married that person. However you suggest that we can have pre marital sex with ma malakat aymanukum. However the above verse clearly states that if you cannot marry then you must marry those committed to your oaths.

You may argue that the above verse does not stop us from having premarital sex with MMA as the verse is about if we cannot marry and not about if we can have sex. I don?t mean to offend anyone but one major thing about marriage is to produce offspring/sex. So what the above verse is also saying, is that if we cannot marry (and subsequently have sex) with the normal women, then we can marry (and subsequently have sex) with MMA.

So in conclusion we can have Premarital sex with MMA ONLY, if we marry MMA first.

This is the same as saying we can only have sex with MMA only if we marry them.
;D

nimnimak_11

Salam Mino-taur

Thank you for replying to my post.

Your welcome.

And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the independent
female believers, then from those maintained
by your oaths (Ma Malakat Aymanukum)
of the believing young women..." - 425

In 423-24 we are told that we cannot marry the muhsinat women untill they become of MMA "Forbidden to you (for marriage) are...And the independent from the women, except those maintained by your oaths. So MMA isn't a plan B, its necessary before you can marry the muhsinat women. They must first become MMA to you.

425 says that if you can't marry the muhsinat women, then you marry the fatayat that are of MMA and not marry MMA instead of muhsinat as plan B since the muhsinat must become of MMA first and is part of plan A.

The key thing we learn in 425 as far as i can tell is that if you can't marry the muhsinat (which must be off MMA first) then you marry the fatayat (which must also be of MMA first)

Remember that, normally, to have sex with someone you must have married that person.

This needs to be in accordance with reason or the Quran.

So in conclusion we can have Premarital sex with MMA ONLY, if we marry MMA first.

This is the same as saying we can only have sex with MMA only if we marry them.

This needs to be backed by reason or Quran. The verse you quoted didn't do this IMO. I'l post something tonight that summarises the thread. It will hopefully save time for those who havn't followed the thread.

Kaiokenred

Salaam nimnimak_11
Thank you for replying to my post. I will first clarify my post as it seems i may have rushed it (as it was a bit late and i was sleepy).
In your first original post (please refer back to it) you stated this
So let?s assume that instead of chaste, the verse says abstain from Unlawful sex (as you suggested). Thus far, it can be concluded that the Quran says abstain from unlawful sex unless it is your Spouse or someone committed to you by oath.