How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran
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Peace uq
To prevent (or at least limit) digression, I think that all members should construct their posts in the form of numbered points; this way, retorts can be made in an ordered fashion.
Good Idea. I'l try
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Edward Lanes lexicon as stated, there is no word in the Classical Arabic language for adultery. Intercourse with a person to whom you are not married is termed zinaa in Classical Arabic, irrespective of the marital status of either party. It is only by the English term adultery that the distinction of marital status is made. Now, the following point is very important the definition of the Arabic term zinaa, through sheer chance, just happened to cover the definitions of both English terms fornication and adultery, because zinaa is implicit in both. It is for this very reason that Lane listed adultery in his lexicon as an entry for zinaa. Lane didnt mean for adultery to be an independent entry, but rather, as an incidental consequence of the original meaning. I apologise if that sounds convoluted, but this is a very technical issue, and an extremely sensitive one at that.
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Choice in meaning supposing that zinaa could have additional unrelated meanings such as mounting and the like, then the context of the sentence indeed, of the discussion at large should provide the specificity necessary for the meaning intended.
According to corpus, these are all the occurrences of zani
http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=zny#(2421). I think this implies that the Quran has only one meaning in mind when using zay-nun-ya and that this meaning is in relation to sexual activity. Mounting upon a thing and sex outside of marriage are both indicative of sexual activity. Which to choose?
This must be determined via implications found in the Quran. Now I will number my points-
There is only one punishment given for zina. This logically must imply that either
a) Only one sort of sexual activity is prohibited (since there is only one punishment outlined for zina) OR
b) More than one sort of sexual activity, that are all of equal moral wrongness, are prohibited -
Zina means impermissible sexual activity (illegal mounting) (as suggested by others). This is implied by the following found in lane
He committed fornication or adultery; (El-Mun?wee, Er-R?ghib, TA with her (MA) but accord. to El-Mun?wee, in the proper language of the Arabs, signifies the mounting upon a thing; and in the language of the law it signifies the commission of the act first mentioned above
Primarily based on 1 and secondarily based on 2 my conclusion
Zina = adultery only provided that no other illegal sexual activity with equal moral wrongness can be found in the Quran. -
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Peace Noon
At the moment I think that musafihun are those that are lewd or sexually immoral and akhdan as secret sexual partner.
Thank you for the link to lane.Peace nimnimak,
Yes they are exact opposites; simply substitute in every verse and see that your whole assumption falls apart; none left for you to have premarital sex with ...
425
mu--a-n-a-t (do not commit fornication or adultery) not
mu-s-a-f--a-t (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)
and not who take in secrecy...244 and the ones who accuse al-m---n-a-t (the ones who do not commit fornication or adultery)
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Peace Noon
Yes they are exact opposites;
They need not be opposites.
simply substitute in every verse and see that your whole assumption falls apart
You suggested that
mu--a-n-a-t (do not commit fornication or adultery) not
mu-s-a-f--a-t (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)Your understanding would result in the following
423 Forbidden for you are your mothers....
424 And the muhsinat (those who do not commit fornication or adultery) from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be (un-fornicative or un-adulterous), not for illicit sex. As for those whom you have already had joy with, then you shall give them their dowries as an obligation. There is no sin upon you for what you agree on after the obligation. God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the muhsinat (those who do not commit fornication or adultery) female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing (fatayat) young women. And God is more aware of your faith, some of you to each other. You shall marry them with the permission of their parents and give them their dowries in kindness; to be muhsineena (un-fornicative or un-adulterous), not for illicit sex or taking secret lovers. When they become (un-fornicative or un-adulterous), then any of them who come with lewdness shall have half of what is the punishment for those (who do not commit adultery or fornication)....Given the above, do you think your understanding works? Can there be a better meaning aside from independent here?
none left for you to have premarital sex with
Let's not conclude early.
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Still, should we not conclude?
I don't think we should go near concluding anything in this thread until everyone's had their say and the discussion ends with some kind of a summary.
The above passage you have quoted. Could you explain what your trying to convey? Or perhaps verse numbers so that I could check it out? -
Still, should we not conclude?
I said before that fahisha that talked about in the Quran is zina. The fahisha about confining in homes is adultery and nothing else. If zina means also fornification than if a couple gets involved sexually without proper marriage it will mean they can never marry since both are now zanis. This is of course illogical.
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Is there any other form of illicit sex beyond the scope of and that could take place ?
I need to look at the verse. Could you give the numbers.
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6151
733
1732I think I understand what your trying to convey.
If x engages in sexual activity with his girlfriend, has he committed a fahisha? -
I think I understand what your trying to convey.
If x engages in sexual activity with his girlfriend, has he committed a fahisha?"fahisha" is fahisha whether done with girlfriend or individually in privacy. With girlfriend it becomes apparent and more serious.
(ش . .
The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of indulging in excessive, immoderate, or beyond measure with reference to generally or universally accepted norms, limits and measures of behaviour. The perception and meanings of the Root have built in subjective and relational element. Moreover, since the excessive, immoderate and extremist tendencies are universally looked upon with dislike, abomination, repulsiveness, and unacceptability, therefore, it has inherent negative element. For reason of built in subjective and relational element, it is the context and related field which will determine and expose its meanings with reference to that context, and in definite state generally about the irrational, unnatural, obscene, pervert and excessively emotional sexual conduct.
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The instances of the word zinaa in the Quran are unfortunately insufficient to form a corpus for the purpose of meaning derivation independent of its use in the Quran per se.
Other than the sources mentioned by Bin Manzoor, Al-Zabeedi, Al-Zamakhshari (and other early lexicographers) in their respective works, there are additional sources whose time of authorship are proximate to the Quran?s revelation, and from which one can form a copious corpus for the very specific purpose of meaning derivation. However, this undertaking will require the same commitments as are required from a PhD research paper, namely, time (years) and resources (thousands of pounds); neither of which are sadly at my disposal.
Contrast the depth of the undertaking of the preceding paragraph with the flimsily subjective assertion of pontification which so characterises many posts in this thread.
Lane?s work was, and remains, astounding.
His endeavour was truly phenomenal for his time in the 1800s, and his legacy still resonates in 2012.
What Lane did omit from his great work, however, were the numerous accounts of usage in Arab prose and poetry it is these instances that I believe will make resolute the meaning of zinaa; beyond which, the sole overriding factor will be personal assertion.
Though it will take me a month or so (due to my personal schedule), I will translate the entire entry of Z-N-Y from the works of Bin Manzoor, of Al-Zabeedi and of Al-Zamakhshari, then I will post them here; perchance we reach closure.
Peace
Usamah
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The instances of the word zinaa in the Quran are unfortunately insufficient to form a corpus for the purpose of meaning derivation independent of its use in the Quran per se.
IMO there is sufficient evidence in both lane's work and the Quran to form the understanding that zina does not entail the exclusivity of sexual activity to marriage.
Contrast the depth of the undertaking of the preceding paragraph with the flimsily subjective assertion of pontification which so characterises many posts in this thread.
I'm not sure which posts you are referring to. But as far as I am aware, I've responded to your understanding of zina objectively and rationally. You haven't commented on either my points 1), 2) or my conclusion thus I do not know your position regarding this matter.
Though it will take me a month or so (due to my personal schedule), I will translate the entire entry of Z-N-Y from the works of Bin Manzoor, of Al-Zabeedi and of Al-Zamakhshari, then I will post them here; perchance we reach closure
I hope you succeed.
Peace
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Peace Mazhar
"fahisha" is fahisha whether done with girlfriend or individually in privacy. With girlfriend it becomes apparent and more serious.
Fahisha is fahisha whether done with girlfriend, fiance or wife. There is no difference. Lewd acts should not be done with anyone.
What is being determined is whether sexual activity is exclusive to marriage according to the Quran. The act of sex is not lewd. But with if it is done with certain people (i.e close family) it is un-controversially lewd. If it is done in public, IMO this is lewd (whether this be an unmarried couple or a married couple)
The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of indulging in excessive, immoderate, or beyond measure with reference to generally or universally accepted norms, limits and measures of behaviour. The perception and meanings of the Root have built in subjective and relational element. Moreover, since the excessive, immoderate and extremist tendencies are universally looked upon with dislike, abomination, repulsiveness, and unacceptability, therefore, it has inherent negative element. For reason of built in subjective and relational element, it is the context and related field which will determine and expose its meanings with reference to that context, and in definite state generally about the irrational, unnatural, obscene, pervert and excessively emotional sexual conduct.
Exactly. Obvious examples include necrophilia and bestiality.
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"fahisha" is fahisha whether done with girlfriend or individually in privacy. With girlfriend it becomes apparent and more serious.
(ش . .
The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of indulging in excessive, immoderate, or beyond measure with reference to generally or universally accepted norms, limits and measures of behaviour. The perception and meanings of the Root have built in subjective and relational element. Moreover, since the excessive, immoderate and extremist tendencies are universally looked upon with dislike, abomination, repulsiveness, and unacceptability, therefore, it has inherent negative element. For reason of built in subjective and relational element, it is the context and related field which will determine and expose its meanings with reference to that context, and in definite state generally about the irrational, unnatural, obscene, pervert and excessively emotional sexual conduct.
Adultery is defined in the dictionary as 'voluntary sexual intercourse of a married person with one of the opposite sex other than his/her spouse.' The Old Testament Hebrew word for adultery is na'aph. The New Testament Greek word for adultery is Moicheuo.
Fornication is defined as 'voluntary sexual intercourse between an unmarried couple.' The Old Testament Hebrew word for fornication is taznuth. The New Testament Greek word for fornication is porneia. We note in the book of Revelation that fornication can be committed even when one of the parties is married. This is as true for married men as it is for married women. If they have sexual relations with a partner other than a spouse, then they are committing fornication.
The seventh commandment of Ex.20.14 and Deu.5.18 is quoted in Mt.5.27, 19.18, Mk.10.19, Lk.18.20, Rom.13.9 and Jas.2.11, the Greek word moicheia (3430) being used to translate the Hebrew word na'aph (5003). Lev.20.10 uses na'aph to describe something wrong a man does concerning his neighbor's wife.
The context through v.21 lists punishments for various sexual sins.
Thus the meaning of na'aph in v.10 may involve "sexual immorality" (Greek 4202 porneia) with the neighbor's wife, but it could also mean "unfaithfulness" to his own wife (Greek a 3428-32 "moich" word), or both.In Jer.3.6-10 the nations of Israel and Judah are personified, with Israel having committed "na'aph," and having been "put away" and "given a bill of divorcement" by God.
Although sexual sin is involved, the primary thrust of v.8 appears to be Israel's unfaithfulness to God.
Unfaithfulness to God or God's law is involved In every passage in which na'aph is used, and often also unfaithfulness to a spouse.
A comprehensive word-study of na'aph would include a word such as "unfaithfulness" as a primary definition.
Looking at the Jewish culture for example we see that the commandment of not eating a "kid boiled in its mothers milk" is taken "by extension" to mean that one should not eat dairy with meat. Therefore, no lasagna or cheeseburgers for Jew.
The point of this being that such extensions are not unheard of, particularly where the meaning is so obvious.As Etymology of the word reveals
The word adultery originates not from "adult", as is commonly thought in English-speaking countries, but from the late latin word for "to alter, corrupt" adulterare.
Adulterare in turn is formed by the combination of ad ("towards", and alter ("other", together with the infinitive form are (making it a verb). Thus the meaning is literally "to make other". In contrast, the word "adult" (meaning a person of mature years) comes from another Latin root, adolescere (or adulescere), meaning to grow up or mature a combination of ad ("towards", alere ("to nourish", "to grow", and the inchoative infix sc (meaning "to enter into a state of".
The application of the term to the act appears to arise from the idea that "criminal intercourse with a married woman ... tended to adulterate the issue of an innocent husband ... and to expose him to support and provide for another man's ". Thus, the "purity" of the children of a marriage is corrupted, and the inheritance is altered. The law often uses the word "adulterate" to describe contamination of food and the like.(So mr. dogbrain, why would this word be chosen to translate the concept which we read in the scripture????
If adulteration has nothing to do with it then why is this the case?
Why not chose another word which only refers to infidelity in a sexual sense?)Jesus taught that indulgence in adulterous thoughts could be just as harmful to the soul as sexual adultery, and it is clear that both carry the same weight of guilt
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Why does it not say that such a one has committed sex with the woman if that is what the central idea is, unless the central idea is something else. So all this points clearly to a bigger idea which the obvious example of sexual purity is used to illustrate.
This is used as it is so intimate an issue which will be easy to relate to.
Sexual infidelity is common and always has been so.
Therefore people can relate to it easily.
It causes much harm, therefore it is a good example of the principle of breaking one's word, violating covenants, of bringing in impurity and corruption, etc.Looking at the Bnai Noach 7 commandments we see that commandment # 7 is "Requirement to have just laws Set up a governing body of law (eg Courts)".
But the thing is, only the basics are covered in scripture.
Not an extensive law book which covers in detail all matters of justice, exactly, yet it does so by setting the pace for what justice really is.
From this we get a picture of what justice is, as well as righteousness, from which, by extension, we can formulate laws that reflect such ideals.If you buy a bottle of water, but it has been adulterated by a careless or devious merchant, do you feel that you have been justly treated?
Or have they been unfaithful in principle to you?http//www.interfaith.org/forum/adulteration-12631.html
Interesting. I am not sure why Arabic has no distinction. Maybe that word got lost acroos times and how the sects understood it became the language. However whats interesting is the OT sometimes describes zina as unfaithfulness. Which makes sense and this means that it may not necessarily mean married couple but any couple commited. I have said before that one interpretation of zani we can take is betrayal or unfaithfulness since they all create the same consequence. Since the Quran mentioned torment as a punishing than the act must create torment to another person. This is the law of proportionality, the eye for an eye. The punishment must fit the crime and burden it causes to somebody else.
So those who say zani can mean fornifcation could do so if zani here means betrayal even when a couple is not married but a partner betrays and is unfaithful. But just having sex because they are not married and are not commited except to each other violates the Quranic understanding of eye for an eye and justice.
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What is being determined is whether sexual activity is exclusive to marriage according to the Quran. The act of sex is not lewd. But with if it is done with certain people (i.e close family) it is un-controversially lewd. If it is done in public, IMO this is lewd (whether this be an unmarried couple or a married couple)
And you consider there is no harm in sex activity with girlfriend. You are using the word "friend" which denotes "2. vi Caribbean be lovers to have a sexual relationship with somebody
They friending long time." .Do you also think there is no harm in sex activity with any of your friend be it a boy, a woman or man?
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And you consider there is no harm in sex activity with girlfriend. You are using the word "friend" which denotes "2. vi Caribbean be lovers to have a sexual relationship with somebody
They friending long time." .Do you also think there is no harm in sex activity with any of your friend be it a boy, a woman or man?
I consider there to be the potential for harm in sexual activity with one's girlfriend, finace or wife depending on what they choose to engage in sexually. I also believe that there is also much potential for much good with regards to sexual activity. Sometimes the choice of sexual partner could be wrong, unwise or lewd as could the nature of the activity.
I wouldn't sleep with any of my friends unless I felt something indicative of love and affection in a certain way. As for homosexuality, I can't comment on what I don't know. I will leave that for God to judge. Till then I think the best of assumptions should be made about them and they should be treated with the equivalent respect that one would give to heterosexuals.
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Quote from Bigmo
Adultery is defined in the dictionary as 'voluntary sexual intercourse of a married person with one of the opposite sex other than his/her spouse.' The Old Testament Hebrew word for adultery is na'aph. The New Testament Greek word for adultery is Moicheuo.Fornication is defined as 'voluntary sexual intercourse between an unmarried couple.' The Old Testament Hebrew word for fornication is taznuth. The New Testament Greek word for fornication is porneia. We note in the book of Revelation that fornication can be committed even when one of the parties is married. This is as true for married men as it is for married women. If they have sexual relations with a partner other than a spouse, then they are committing fornication.
The act in both cases is the same, and it is "Intercourse involving male and female genitals". The categorization in legal enactments of some societies is by the Subjects to whom the male genitalia and female genitalia belonged doing intercourse. Act remains the same in both cases.
is a Verbal Noun signifying an action and a state only. It only denotes the act of intercourse and a state where the male genitalia is intercoursing with female genitalia. It does not refer to the doer of act as to who are they who are performing intercourse.
The woman performing in the act of intercourse is Active Participle
and the man performing in the act of intercourse is also Active Participle . The definite Active Participles refer to that man and woman who have been convicted guilty of being the Performers of that act which is denoted by its Verbal Noun i.e. sexual intercourse. It has no reference to the marital status of convicts at the time of performance of the act . -
I consider there to be the potential for harm in sexual activity with one's girlfriend, finace or wife depending on what they choose to engage in sexually. I also believe that there is also much potential for much good with regards to sexual activity. Sometimes the choice of sexual partner could be wrong, unwise or lewd as could the nature of the activity.
I wouldn't sleep with any of my friends unless I felt something indicative of love and affection in a certain way. As for homosexuality, I can't comment on what I don't know. I will leave that for God to judge. Till then I think the best of assumptions should be made about them and they should be treated with the equivalent respect that one would give to heterosexuals.
A friend is a friend, be it a girl or boy, because it refers to somebody who is emotionally close--somebody who trusts and is fond of another.
Therefore, if you approve sex between friends who have different sexual gender, you shoud treat the friends of same gender at par with your friend legally and morally. What is the legal position for those male friends who enjoy sex?
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They need not be opposites.
Given the above, do you think your understanding works? Can there be a better meaning aside from independent here?
Peace nimnimak,
They are opposites. Even in programming logic the NOT function or Inverter (logic gate) is opposite.
Therefore, using substitution...
chaste
adjective
Abstaining from extramarital, or from all, sexual activity.423-25 prohibited onto you your mothers and your daughters ...
and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed
indeed The God is Forgiving Merciful (continue prohibition against gathering between)...and the chaste from the women only what possess your right hands/means
scripture The God onto you and permitted to you what behind those that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded/careful not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na unguarded/careless
so what enjoyment to you with it from them so give them their rewards obligation
and not blame onto you in what you agree with them with it from after the obligation
indeed The God is Knowing Wiseand from not is able from you awlan/height that marry the chaste the believers
so from what possess your right hands/means from fatayatikumu/your maidens the believers
(if they are not chaste, they are category of loose girls, had prior sex, ex-prostitutes, less desirable for marriage, cheaper, etc.)and The God Knows in your faith some of you from others (a reminder, you're not all that uppity)
so marry them by permission their family and give them their rewards in fair manner
chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)
and not who take in secrecyso when guarded/married so if they commit b-f-a-h-sh-t in immorality
so to them half what over the chaste from the punishmentthat to who fears the hardship from you and that you be patient better to you
and The God Forgiving Merciful