How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

nimnimak_11

Peace nimnimak, you did not address the main proof which absolutely and clearly refutes your whole assumption and calls those who engage in premarital sex/fornication musafihun which is the opposite of chaste.

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste...
Lane's Lexicon, Volume 2, page 222, 223

425 chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)

Peace Noon

You must have missed my reply to you as there are two and it appears you have only addressed the latest one. Please check 775. I haven't ignored your point
Here is what i said there

Consider the following examples

When you marry, you should seek independence not dependence (this is a case of opposites)
Same example
When you marry, you should seek to be independent not lustful.

Is there anything logically wrong with 2?

The above was in response to your claim

They are opposites. Even in programming logic the NOT function or Inverter (logic gate) is opposite.

So what main proof have I not responded to?

Can you see my post to you with regards to 425 and the problem of understanding the muhsinat as chaste? Would you still believe that the muhsinat means chaste such that if one can't marry the chaste (muhsinat) women they should marry the fatayat (who are obviously not chaste because we marry them when we can't marry someone who is not muhsinat/chaste)

Do what you want, it's clear per Qur'an premarital sex/fornication is musafihun no different than whoring.

It's clear per Quran that muhsinat can't mean chaste in the Quran otherwise we get the following horrible translation 425 And whoever of you cannot afford to marry the chaste (as opposed to independent) female believers, then from those maintained by your oaths of the believing fatayat women (this must mean that the fatayat are unchaste since you marry them when you can't marry the chaste women).

Do you see my point with regards to the problem of understanding the muhsina as chaste?
I understood muhafeesun to mean lustful/sexually illicit are we in disagreement here? since this was not what we disagreed on. It was on the logics which I responded (see above)

What have I not addressed then?? Just point to it if there is truth to this.

Peace

Noon_waalqalami

believing fatayat women (this must mean that the fatayat are unchaste since you marry them when you can't marry the chaste women).

Do you see my point with regards to the problem of understanding the muhsina as chaste?

Peace nimnimak,

Yes IF NOT chaste THEN fatayatikumu who are NOT chaste! What is so hard about that?
IF THEN ELSE use the brain basic logic. They get half the punishment. Already posted...

chaste
adjective
Abstaining from extramarital, or from all, sexual activity.

and from not is able from you awlan/height that marry the chaste the believers
so from what possess your right hands/means from fatayatikumu/your maidens the believers
(if they are not chaste, they are category of loose girls, had prior sex, ex-prostitutes, less desirable for marriage, cheaper, etc.)

and The God Knows in your faith some of you from others (a reminder, you're not all that uppity)
so marry them by permission their family and give them their rewards in fair manner
chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)
and not who take in secrecy

so when guarded/married so if they commit b-f-a-h-sh-t in immorality
so to them half what over the chaste from the punishment

I understood muhafeesun to mean lustful/sexually illicit are we in disagreement here? since this was not what we disagreed on. It was on the logics which I responded (see above)

What have I not addressed then?? Just point to it if there is truth to this.

Did you not read the examples, fornication is mentioned six times or are you making up your own Lexicon?

chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)

LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

Noon_waalqalami

chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)

LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

say, t1_a ! He committed fornication with her.
(A, Msb.) And ';.b'C She committed fornication with him (L) or he abode with him in
tlw practice of fornication. (TA.) And -
CILJI >& Z. I . (A, Mgb.)
In the Time of Ignorance, when a man demanded
a woman in marriage, he said, U,., '!; and
when he desired fornication, he said, ls1 .
(TA.)

nimnimak_11

Peace Noon

Yes IF NOT chaste THEN fatayatikumu who are NOT chaste! What is so hard about that?
IF THEN ELSE use the brain basic logic. They get half the punishment. Already posted...

Fatayat must mean either Dependent or young. If we say that the muhsinat are chaste, we get the following

425....if you can't marry the believing chaste women, then marry the believing young women (as they are always unchaste)

You may say that the fatayat are not always unchaste, but how can this be if we conclude that the muhsinat = chaste?
If we can't marry the chaste women, we are obviously going to marry a class that are not chaste since we can't manage marriage with a chaste woman.
This then means that all fatayat women are unchaste and I think this is illogical. I think it is more logical to think that the muhsinat are the opposite of young or dependent. Which is guarded or independent.

Is my position with regards to the muhsinat unreasonable? If so, which part of it?

Did you not read the examples, fornication is mentioned six times or are you making up your own Lexicon?

chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)

I've been through lane twice with regards to Siin-Fa-Ha. Let's try the understanding fornication

424 And the muhsinat from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not fornication.

424 is about marriage. If we take musafihun as fornication, we are left with the following question

How can one seek to fornicate by getting married? They are getting married thus it cannot be fornication.
For this reason i've opted for lustful since fornication at 424 does not makes sense. If it does, please explain it to me as I don't understand how it would make sense.

Peace

nimnimak_11

Sexual in an offensive way is lewdness. The issue is about "friendly sex". How friends be committing "lewdness"? You think "friendly sex" is permissible, whether friend is a male or female, and is not punishable. Is this your contention?

Salam Mazhar

Sorry for the late reply.
Friends can commit lewdness if they for example engage in a threesome but if they do it in private and no one gets harmed as a result of their action, then we have no authority to punish them in accordance to the Quran. That is my view.

Noon_waalqalami

Peace Noon
Fatayat must mean either Dependent or young. If we say that the muhsinat are chaste, we get the following

425....if you can't marry the believing chaste women, then marry the believing young women (as they are always unchaste)

You may say that the fatayat are not always unchaste, but how can this be if we conclude that the muhsinat = chaste?
If we can't marry the chaste women, we are obviously going to marry a class that are not chaste since we can't manage marriage with a chaste woman.
This then means that all fatayat women are unchaste and I think this is illogical. I think it is more logical to think that the muhsinat are the opposite of young or dependent. Which is guarded or independent.

Is my position with regards to the muhsinat unreasonable? If so, which part of it?

Peace nimnimak,

there is no such meaning as independent; that's fabrication
fatayatikumu = your maidens (encompasses all women)
the chaste = the chaste subset of fatayatikumu

fatayatikumu - the chaste = non-chaste

and from not is able from you awlan/height that marry the chaste the believers
so from what possess your right hands/means from fatayatikumu/your maidens the believers
(if not chaste, they are category of loose girls, had prior sex, ex-prostitutes, less desirable for marriage, cheaper, etc.)

I've been through lane twice with regards to Siin-Fa-Ha. Let's try the understanding fornication

fornication is sex without marriage -- do you even read what people write or what's in the Lexincon?

424 And the muhsinat from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be independent, not fornication.

424 is about marriage. If we take musafihun as fornication, we are left with the following question

How can one seek to fornicate by getting married? They are getting married thus it cannot be fornication.
For this reason i've opted for lustful since fornication at 424 does not makes sense. If it does, please explain it to me as I don't understand how it would make sense.

Of course it doesn't make any sense with that messy translation -- did I not post this?

chaste
adjective
Abstaining from extramarital, or from all, sexual activity.

423-25 prohibited onto you your mothers and your daughters ...
and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed
indeed The God is Forgiving Merciful (continue prohibition against gathering between)...

and the chaste from the women only what possess your right hands/means

scripture The God onto you and permitted to you what behind those that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded/careful not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na unguarded/careless
so what enjoyment to you with it from them so give them their rewards obligation
and not blame onto you in what you agree with them with it from after the obligation
indeed The God is Knowing Wise

and from not is able from you awlan/height that marry the chaste the believers
so from what possess your right hands/means from fatayatikumu/your maidens the believers
(if they are not chaste, they are category of loose girls, had prior sex, ex-prostitutes, less desirable for marriage, cheaper, etc.)

and The God Knows in your faith some of you from others (a reminder, you're not all that uppity)
so marry them by permission their family and give them their rewards in fair manner
chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)
and not who take in secrecy

so when guarded/married so if they commit b-f-a-h-sh-t in immorality
so to them half what over the chaste from the punishment

that to who fears the hardship from you and that you be patient better to you
and The God Forgiving Merciful

Regardless what your right hands or chaste means this is clear NO fornication/sex outside marriage!

chaste not non-chaste (Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery)

LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

say, t1_a ! He committed fornication with her.
(A, Msb.) And ';.b'C She committed fornication with him (L or he abode with him in
tlw practice of fornication. (TA.) And -
CILJI >& Z. I . (A, Mgb.)
In the Time of Ignorance, when a man demanded
a woman in marriage, he said, U,., '!; and
when he desired fornication, he said, ls1 .
(TA.)

The above should be enough for you. No more comments!

nimnimak_11

Peace Noon

You've misunderstood my point about fornication. It's obvious what fornication means (sex without a marriage certificate). No one is disagreeing with that. Thus when you write

fornication is sex without marriage -- do you even read what people write or what's in the Lexincon?

Yes but sometimes my posts are not done justice. Look at what I said

424 And the muhsinat from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be muhsineena, not musafihun (fornication).

We are told not to seek marriage for musafihunna (fornication). BUT How can one seek marriage for fornication for them to be told not to seek marriage for fornication?! I know fornication means sex outside of marriage that is why it creates contradictions at 424 and that is why musafihunna cannot mean fornication at 424!

These people at 424 are getting married. LOGICALLY HOW CAN THEY SEEK MARRIAGE FOR FORNICATION WHEN THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE WIPES OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF FORNICATION?!

Do you see the logical problem with your understanding of musafihun at 424? Now is it me who has not bothered to read your post?

Regardless what your right hands or chaste means this is clear NO fornication/sex outside marriage!

Then why is there a clear contradiction? Just look at 424 (not 425 but 424) and musafihuna that occurs in it!

Even in your own post to me, you've translated musafihuna as something commpletely different

" scripture The God onto you and permitted to you what behind those that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded/careful not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na unguarded/careless"

WHERE IS THERE AND UNGUARDED/CARELESS IN LANE? Am i making things up or you?!

The above should be enough for you. No more comments!

How is the above enough for me when it is contradictory?! How is it enough for you when it is contradictory??

Noon_waalqalami

Look at what I said

424 And the muhsinat from the women, except those maintained by your oaths; the book of God over you; and permitted for you is what is beyond this, if you are seeking with your money to be muhsineena, not musafihun (fornication).

We are told not to seek marriage for musafihunna (fornication). BUT How can one seek marriage for fornication for them to be told not to seek marriage for fornication?! I know fornication means sex outside of marriage that is why it creates contradictions at 424 and that is why musafihunna cannot mean fornication at 424!

These people at 424 are getting married. LOGICALLY HOW CAN THEY SEEK MARRIAGE FOR FORNICATION WHEN THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE WIPES OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF FORNICATION?!

Do you see the logical problem with your understanding of musafihun at 424? Now is it me who has not bothered to read your post?

Then why is there a clear contradiction? Just look at 424 (not 425 but 424) and musafihuna that occurs in it!

Peace nimnimak,

What contradiction? What are you reading, which words are you translating as what?
Where is your evidence premarital sex is allowed and with whom exactly, prostitutes?

423-25 prohibited onto you your mothers and your daughters ...
and that you gathered between the two sisters only what hence passed
indeed The God is Forgiving Merciful (continue prohibition against gathering between)...

and the chaste from the women only what possess your right hands/means

scripture The God onto you and permitted to you what behind those that you seek with your wealth

m-h-s-n-y-n (masculine plural)

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.

not m-s-a-f-h-y-n (masculine plural)

Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

so what enjoyment to you with it from them so give them their rewards obligation
and not blame onto you in what you agree with them with it from after the obligation
indeed The God is Knowing Wise

and from not is able from you tawlan/height that marry the chaste the believers
so from what possess your right hands/means from fatayatikumu/your maidens the believers
(if not chaste, left with girls who have sex, ex-prostitutes, less desirable for marriage, cheaper, etc.)

and The God Knows in your faith some of you from others
so marry them by permission their family and give them their rewards in fair manner

m-h-s-n-a-t (feminine plural)

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.

not m-s-a-f-h-a-t (feminine plural)

Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

and not who take in secrecy

so when guarded/married so if they commit b-f-a-h-sh-t in immorality
so to them half what over the chaste from the punishment

that to who fears the hardship from you and that you be patient better for you
and The God Forgiving Merciful

nimnimak_11

Peace Noon

What contradiction? What are you reading, which words are you translating as what?

I cannot understand the word musafihun at 424 here

and the chaste from the women only what possess your right hands/means
scripture The God onto you and permitted to you what behind those that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded/careful not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na unguarded/careless
so what enjoyment to you with it from them so give them their rewards obligation
and not blame onto you in what you agree with them with it from after the obligation
indeed The God is Knowing Wise

In the above, the word musafhyna is translated as unguarded/careless. However your suggestion (based on Lane) is that we understand it as fornication. I think this is a very fair suggestion as I cannot see Lane conveying anything other than fornication with regards to sin-fa-ha. But there is a problem

If we do this, we are left with a contradiction at 424. This is how

423-25 is about marriage. At 424 we are told that.... permitted for you is what is beyond this (for marriage), if you are seeking with your money to be muhsinyna, not musafhyna. Had 423-25 not had been about marriage, we would have had no contradiction.

The point I'm making is that it is logically impossible for one to seek marriage for the sake of fornication thus to understand musifhuna as fornication at 424 is logically flawed. This is why corpus's word by word and the passage you quoted to me of 424 have all translated misufuhunna as something other than fornication as it would cause logical contradictions as far as I can see and no solution has been given to me hence I cannot see this as solid proof.

Where is your evidence premarital sex is allowed and with whom exactly, prostitutes?

No I think prostitution is bad to both the prostitute and the one who seeks the prostitute because all that is happening is the pursuit of pure lust and instead of doing this one should seek love and affection as relationships are for love and affection within which sexual activity can play an important role to contribute to that love and affection. I'm advocating the latter kind of sexual activity not the former.

Please let's keep it to one point at a time as I do not want to misunderstand your points or you to misunderstand mine. If we address everything in one go, it is more likely that this will happen. But I will shortly summarise

My point has essentially been Let's see where the Quran has restrictions with regards to sex.
235-6 was the first restriction. Leaving only the zawj or MMA. The next step was to find other restrictions on either the zawj or the MMA. That which has been pointed out by others

The concept of zina (which I discussed with uq. My defence was at 740 his response at 751)
the concept of musafihunna (which is still in discussion with you)
2433 which was discussed with savage_carrot and good logic
2237 which was discussed with savage_carrot
The waiting periods 2228-236

These were the verses that were with regards to sex and restrictions/guidelines upon it and this left me with the position that sexual activity with the MMA is permissible and that there is no blame upon those who do so. If you want to discuss any of the above, then ok but please let's do so point by point. My concern here is that my position is not being understood because we are mixing points up.

Noon_waalqalami

In the above, the word musafhyna is translated as unguarded/careless. However your suggestion (based on Lane) is that we understand it as fornication. I think this is a very fair suggestion as I cannot see Lane conveying anything other than fornication with regards to sin-fa-ha. But there is a problem

If we do this, we are left with a contradiction at 424. This is how

423-25 is about marriage. At 424 we are told that.... permitted for you is what is beyond this (for marriage), if you are seeking with your money to be muhsinyna, not musafhyna. Had 423-25 not had been about marriage, we would have had no contradiction.

The point I'm making is that it is logically impossible for one to seek marriage for the sake of fornication thus to understand musifhuna as fornication at 424 is logically flawed. This is why corpus's word by word and the passage you quoted to me of 424 have all translated misufuhunna as something other than fornication as it would cause logical contradictions as far as I can see and no solution has been given to me hence I cannot see this as solid proof.

Peace nimnimak,

Corpus is inconsistent throughout. OK one at a time, please use template I posted earlier and insert appropriate word next to Arabic so we know what is being translated. There is no contradiction only lack of comprehension.

424 and the chaste from the women only what possess your right hands scripture The God onto you and permitted to you what behind those that you seek with your wealth

m-h-s-n-y-n (masculine plural) chaste

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.

not

m-s-a-f-h-y-n (masculine plural) unchaste/fornicating

Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

Therefore, marry with your wealth; chaste; not fornicating or screwing around.
Why is that a contradiction and difficult for you to comprehend in any language?

If you have better meaning from Lanes etc., substitute in template lets see how it fits globally?

Mazhar

Corpus is inconsistent throughout. OK one at a time, please use template I posted earlier and insert appropriate word next to Arabic so we know what is being translated. There is no contradiction only lack of comprehension.

424 and the chaste from the women only what possess your right hands scripture The God onto you and permitted to you what behind those that you seek with your wealth

m-h-s-n-y-n (masculine plural) chaste

Chaste is an adjective needing an object whom it modifies. is Passive Participle. And in Arabic a Passive Participle becomes descriptive only when used as an Adjectival trait of someone. Here it is the Proxy Suject of Passive Verb. Therefore, chaste is not even the remotest possibility for its translation.

is Active Participle plural masculine. It being Accusative, relates the circumstance and state or manner of doing the preceding act.

Bigmo

(23) Prohibited to you (For marriage) are- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father?s sisters, Mother?s sisters; brother?s daughters, sister?s daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives? mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-

(24) Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

(25) If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful

Why does the translation translates muhsinat in one place as women already married and in another as free believing women?

nimnimak_11

Peace Noon

OK one at a time, please use template I posted earlier and insert appropriate word next to Arabic so we know what is being translated.

Ok

There is no contradiction only lack of comprehension.

Ok here is 424 in your preferred template and my understanding of the key terms inserted

424....and permitted to you what beyond these that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na sex

We are told that permitted to us for marriage is what is beyond this
So long as we seek with our wealth to be muhsinyna as opposed to musafhyna.

Do you disagree with either points 1 or 2?

If not, then this means that 424 is saying that men can seek women for marriage for the sake of fornication (if that is how we understand musafihuna).
Do you disagree with this? (I'm just trying to pinpoint where I am not understanding you or where you are not understanding me)

If not, then there is the contradiction One cannot seek women for marriage for the sake of fornication. Thus understanding musafihunna as fornication cannot work logically.

If you have better meaning from Lanes etc., substitute in template lets see how it fits globally?

The closest thing I can think of with regards to fornication that would not contradict 424 is sex (not fornication or adultery) just sex.

With regards to muhsinat and fatayat you suggested

there is no such meaning as independent; that's fabrication
fatayatikumu = your maidens (encompasses all women)
the chaste = the chaste subset of fatayatikumu

The above suggests that we always marry the fatayat as there are no other category of women. However not all fatayat are the same, some are chaste (muhsinat) some are not (unchaste fatayat). Have I got this right?

You've understood fatayat as maidens. So this means that all women are maidens as muhsinat are just a subset of fatayat. What is your understanding of the meaning of maiden? According to the Cambridge dictionary a girl or young woman
My problem

This would mean that only the young women are permissible for marriage.
If you understanding maiden/fatayat as something else then let me know but ask yourself

Why would one need to ask the family's permission when wanting to marry the fatayat and why do they receive half the punishment of a muhsinat?

My suggestion
Let's understand the muhsinat as guarded and the fatayat as young/dependent
Since the young need guardians, they are not themselves guarded, they need others to guard them. Thus fatayat are young and dependent on their guardians, whilst the muhsinat are guarded and so not dependent on guardians.

Do you have a better solution regarding muhsinat and fatayat?

Peace

Mazhar

(24) Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess Thus hath Allah ordained (Prohibitions) against you Except for these, all others are lawful, provided ye seek (them in marriage) with gifts from your property,- desiring chastity, not lust, seeing that ye derive benefit from them, give them their dowers (at least) as prescribed; but if, after a dower is prescribed, agree Mutually (to vary it), there is no blame on you, and Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

Like the Widows, this category of Married Women in the Wedlock of Non-Believing Husbands, having emigrated and taken asylum in Muslim society, cause additional liability for intending believing person to marry them. He is required to pay to her Non-Believing Husband his demand of spent expenditure, and also the Wedding Gift-settled obligation to the Women. For many the proposition of marrying such Non-Believer's Wives, who have become those women whose affair has become under the authority, liability and disposal of the hands of Believing Men/Society, might not be feasible owing to their financial condition. He has yet another option

(25) If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful

Take note that whoever amongst you people has not yet self acquired wherewithal enabling that he might take into Matrimonial Bond the the Emigrant Married Believing Women in the Wedlock of a Non Believer having migrated taking asylum in Muslim society-state;
thereby, he may seek from amongst those Woman, upon whom, the right hands of you have the authority and responsibility-guardianship for ordering and managing their affairs, they being in the state of your believing house-maids.

Why does the translation translates muhsinat in one place as women already married and in another as free believing women?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604178.0

Noon_waalqalami

Chaste is an adjective needing an object whom it modifies. is Passive Participle. And in Arabic a Passive Participle becomes descriptive only when used as an Adjectival trait of someone. Here it is the Proxy Suject of Passive Verb. Therefore, chaste is not even the remotest possibility for its translation.

is Active Participle plural masculine. It being Accusative, relates the circumstance and state or manner of doing the preceding act.

Peace Mazhar,

Yes there are modern day grammar standards -- and your definition for the two words is what exactly?

m-h-s-n-y-n ?

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.

not

m-s-a-f-h-y-n ?
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

Why does the translation translates muhsinat in one place as women already married and in another as free believing women?

Most translations are are all over the place don't even bother to cross-reference or check for consistency.

424 and the married/unmarried? from the women only/except what possess your right hands

425 and from not is able from you height that marry the married/unmarried?
425 and give them their rewards in fair manner married/unmarried? not mu-s-a-f-h-a-t ?
425 so to them half what over the married/unmarried?

55 permitted to you and your food permitted to them and the married/unmarried?
55 when you have given them their rewards mu-h-sin-n-y-na ? not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na ?

244 and the ones who accuse the married/unmarried?
246 and the ones who accuse azwajahum their spouses (obviously married)
2423 indeed the ones who accuse the married/unmarried?

Bigmo

Peace Mazhar,

Yes there are modern day grammar standards -- and your definition for the two words is what exactly?

m-h-s-n-y-n ?

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.

not

m-s-a-f-h-y-n ?
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

Most translations are are all over the place don't even bother to cross-reference or check for consistency.

424 and the married/unmarried? from the women only/except what possess your right hands

425 and from not is able from you height that marry the married/unmarried?
425 and give them their rewards in fair manner married/unmarried? not mu-s-a-f-h-a-t ?
425 so to them half what over the married/unmarried?

55 permitted to you and your food permitted to them and the married/unmarried?
55 when you have given them their rewards mu-h-sin-n-y-na ? not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na ?

244 and the ones who accuse the married/unmarried?
246 and the ones who accuse azwajahum their spouses (obviously married)
2423 indeed the ones who accuse the married/unmarried?

Mazhar has brought my attention to the women who have husbands in Mecca who did not migrate with them. This is a very good observation. I have not tought about that before.

Mazhar

Chaste is an adjective needing an object whom it modifies. is Passive Participle. And in Arabic a Passive Participle becomes descriptive only when used as an Adjectival trait of someone. Here it is the Proxy Suject of Passive Verb. Therefore, chaste is not even the remotest possibility for its translation

is Active Participle plural masculine. It being Accusative, relates the circumstance and state or manner of doing the preceding act.

Peace Mazhar,

Yes there are modern day grammar standards -- and your definition for the two words is what exactly?

m-h-s-n-y-n ?

Ha-Sad-Nun = To be guarded, be inaccessible/unapproachable, be chaste, be strongly fortified, difficult to access, be preserved, be protected (against attack), abstain from what is not lawful nor decorous, preserve or guard a thing in places inaccessible/unapproachable, make or render a thing inaccessible or unapproachable or difficult to access, make/render a thing unattainable by reason of its height, to fortify oneself.

not

m-s-a-f-h-y-n ?
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

Chaste has always been an adjective. And is not present day grammar standard, but has all along been so.

Arabic is not a germanic language. The basic perception and meanings are in the Root, and not in the word. The word pattern adds meanings, connotations, colours, depths, intensity, diminuity, largeness, states, performance roles, etc to the basic perception and meanings of the Root.
Each word of Arabic is unique giving a singular perception. But "ignorants to Arabic basics and its grammar" think a word can have many meanings while seeing different English words in Arabic-English lexicons, particularly Lane's.

The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of " guarding, honouring, respect, and encompassing, surrounding, amulet, fortified place".

All words emanating from this Root shall retain the basic perception. is Passive Participle and since passive participles are derived from present tense verb, these feminine objects and persons signify only those who have since been subjected to an act of honouring and encompassing them whereby they have become guarded, encompassed, surrounded. And the male performers of this act are . Such performers are othan than, the opposite of debauch men

Bigmo

Mazhar has brought my attention to the women who have husbands in Mecca who did not migrate with them. This is a very good observation. I have not tought about that before.

However the Quran does say the believers are those who guard their genitals except on their wives and MMA. This mean MMA can not be the women who already have husbands in Mecca since the verse seems to be speaking about having sex, and not just marrying, the MMA. This means that a person can be an MMA even after havibg sex with them.

This leaves the concubine option as the best I see so far.

nimnimak_11

To further clarify reply 792

424 says....and permitted to you what beyond these that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na

If musafhyna is understood to mean fornicate/fornication, then this means that we are advised not to seek marriage for fornication.
This advice makes no sense as one cannot seek marriage for fornication because marriage wipes out the possibility for fornication. Thus the advice of don't seek marriage for fornication makes no sense and is contradictory.

Thus either the Quran is contradictory or the word musafihuna must have a different meaning.

Noon_waalqalami

Arabic is not a germanic language. The basic perception and meanings are in the Root, and not in the word. The word pattern adds meanings, connotations, colours, depths, intensity, diminuity, largeness, states, performance roles, etc to the basic perception and meanings of the Root.
Each word of Arabic is unique giving a singular perception. But "ignorants to Arabic basics and its grammar" think a word can have many meanings while seeing different English words in Arabic-English lexicons, particularly Lane's.

I see now like the pompous ignorant who does not understand a simple IF statement.

The basic perception infolded in the Root is that of " guarding, honouring, respect, and encompassing, surrounding, amulet, fortified place".

All words emanating from this Root shall retain the basic perception. is Passive Participle and since passive participles are derived from present tense verb, these feminine objects and persons signify only those who have since been subjected to an act of honouring and encompassing them whereby they have become guarded, encompassed, surrounded. And the male performers of this act are . Such performers are othan than, the opposite of debauch men

And closest word definition in English not German is what -- run away brides?

m-h-s-n-y-n ?
not
m-s-a-f-h-y-n ?
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

However the Quran does say the believers are those who guard their genitals except on their wives and MMA. This mean MMA can not be the women who already have husbands in Mecca since the verse seems to be speaking about having sex, and not just marrying, the MMA. This means that a person can be an MMA even after havibg sex with them.

This leaves the concubine option as the best I see so far.

Applies to both sexes so run away brides and housemaids/gardeners concubines is nonsense.