How sex before Marriage is not haram (prohibited) according to the Quran

Bigmo

I see now like the pompous ignorant who does not understand a simple IF statement.

And closest word definition in English not German is what -- run away brides?

m-h-s-n-y-n ?
not
m-s-a-f-h-y-n ?
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

Applies to both sexes so run away brides and housemaids/gardeners concubines is nonsense.

What does housemaid and gardeners have to do with concubines?

Mazhar

Arabic is not a germanic language. Mazhar

And closest word definition in English not German is what -- run away brides? Noon

Quote from Wiki

"The most widely spoken Germanic languages are English and German, with approximately 300?400 million and over 100 million native speakers respectively. They belong to the West Germanic family. The West Germanic group also includes other major languages, such as Dutch with 23 million and Afrikaans with over 6 million native speakers;. The North Germanic languages include Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, and Faroese, which have a combined total of about 20 million speakers. The SIL Ethnologue lists 53 different Germanic languages."

Mazhar

And closest word definition in English not German is what -- run away brides?

For bride, Arabic equivalent is

Noon_waalqalami

What does housemaid and gardeners have to do with concubines?

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9604178.0

Addressed to all believers; can woman expose herself to male servant/slave/gardener or man to his housemaid?

231 hence succeed the believers
232 the ones who they in their prayers humble
233 and the ones who they about the nonsense averse/turning away
234 and the ones who they of purification works doing
235 and the ones who they of their private parts guardians
236 only over their spouses or what possess their right hands so indeed they not blameworthy

Mazhar

And closest word definition in English not German is what -- run away brides?

Qur'aan prescribes detailed injunctions for handling and treating "run away married women in the wedlock of non believers" taking asylum in Muslim society. They are the only married women who are permissible for taking into wedlock by a Muslim.

Mazhar

Addressed to all believers; can woman expose herself to male servant/slave/gardener or man to his housemaid?

231 hence succeed the believers
232 the ones who they in their prayers humble
233 and the ones who they about the nonsense averse/turning away
234 and the ones who they of purification works doing
235 and the ones who they of their private parts guardians
236 only over their spouses or what possess their right hands so indeed they not blameworthy

It seems as if it is a post coming from niminimak not Noon. Sometime back, I think Noon had some different opinion about exposure and .

Noon_waalqalami

424....and permitted to you what beyond these that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na sex

We are told that permitted to us for marriage is what is beyond this
So long as we seek with our wealth to be muhsinyna as opposed to musafhyna.

Do you disagree with either points 1 or 2?

If not, then this means that 424 is saying that men can seek women for marriage for the sake of fornication (if that is how we understand musafihuna).
Do you disagree with this? (I'm just trying to pinpoint where I am not understanding you or where you are not understanding me)

If not, then there is the contradiction One cannot seek women for marriage for the sake of fornication.

Peace nimnimak,

What you mean seek with your wealth guarded not sex? If Qur'an states A NOT B inverse/opposite is clear.
English there is distinction fornication and adultery not in Arabic.

With regards to muhsinat and fatayat you suggested

The above suggests that we always marry the fatayat as there are no other category of women. However not all fatayat are the same, some are chaste (muhsinat) some are not (unchaste fatayat). Have I got this right?

You've understood fatayat as maidens. So this means that all women are maidens as muhsinat are just a subset of fatayat. What is your understanding of the meaning of maiden? According to the Cambridge dictionary a girl or young woman
My problem

This would mean that only the young women are permissible for marriage.
If you understanding maiden/fatayat as something else then let me know but ask yourself

Why would one need to ask the family's permission when wanting to marry the fatayat and why do they receive half the punishment of a muhsinat?

No suggests if not able to marry a chaste (any age) then younger non-chaste not old non-chaste.
It says ask permission regardless the meaning. Half the punishment considering their background.

My suggestion
Let's understand the muhsinat as guarded and the fatayat as young/dependent
Since the young need guardians, they are not themselves guarded, they need others to guard them. Thus fatayat are young and dependent on their guardians, whilst the muhsinat are guarded and so not dependent on guardians.

Do you have a better solution regarding muhsinat and fatayat?

Independent like she has a job, a house, owns a gun, where you get the definition from?
Insert "independent" in each verse see if it makes sense or does it allow premarital sex?

424 and the independent? from the women only/except what possess your right hands

425 and from not is able from you height that marry the independent?
425 and give them their rewards in fair manner independent? not mu-s-a-f-h-a-t sex?
425 so to them half what over the independent?

55 permitted to you and your food permitted to them and the independent?
55 when you have given them their rewards mu-h-sin-n-y-na ? not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na ?

244 and the ones who accuse the independent?
246 and the ones who accuse azwajahum their spouses
2423 indeed the ones who accuse the independent?

It seems as if it is a post coming from niminimak not Noon. Sometime back, I think Noon had some different opinion about exposure and .

I asked a question and did not give my opinion in that post nor has it changed.

Qur'aan prescribes detailed injunctions for handling and treating "run away married women in the wedlock of non believers" taking asylum in Muslim society. They are the only married women who are permissible for taking into wedlock by a Muslim.

We are not talking about that chapter discussing exact meaning of these words?

m-h-s-n-y-n ?
not
m-s-a-f-h-y-n ?
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery
LL, V4, p 93 http//www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000093.pdf

nimnimak_11

It seems as if it is a post coming from niminimak not Noon. Sometime back, I think Noon had some different opinion about exposure and .

Salam Mazhar

Can you deny the logic that
the guarding of one's private parts includes not engaging in sexual activity with it and that unguarding of one's private parts entails exactly the opposite?

Yet it appears to be belived that unguarding the private parts does not include to have sex.

Yes I agree it does not mean to have sex but it is one of the things that one does by unguarding their private parts thus it does include to have sex.

How is this logic flawed and why would the Quran let us ungaurd our private parts to runaway brides. What is special about them?

nimnimak_11

Peace Noon

I will address the other point about muhsinat later but I want to understand your point about musfaihun first

What you mean seek with your wealth guarded not sex?

To become guarded in a life long commitment to one partner as oppossed to just marrying that partner for the sake of sex. That is what I mean.

.
English there is distinction fornication and adultery not in Arabic.

Ok but a distinction needs to be made at 424 here is why

424....and permitted to you what beyond these that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na Adulterous

Do you agree with the above? Since it cannot be the case that musafihun can mean fornication in there so we must either take it as only adultery or just sex.

If Qur'an states A NOT B inverse/opposite is clear

If anyone says A not B it doesn't have to be opposite. Consider the following example

Nyma, when you get married, make sure you get married for independence not sex/adultery. Is there anything logically wrong here? Does there need to be opposites? If not then why does there need to be opposites at 424 with regards to muhsinat and musafihuna?

Mazhar

Salam Mazhar

Can you deny the logic that
the guarding of one's private parts includes not engaging in sexual activity with it and that unguarding of one's private parts entails exactly the opposite?

Yet it appears to be belived that unguarding the private parts does not include to have sex.

Yes I agree it does not mean to have sex but it is one of the things that one does by unguarding their private parts thus it does include to have sex.

How is this logic flawed and why would the Quran let us ungaurd our private parts to runaway brides. What is special about them?

Showing gentials to a doctor for treatement does not mean that the man is nomore guarding it.

Red part seems to be in your mind not in Qur'aan. What is inscribed therein is to enter into Matrimonial Bond with them-marry them, take them in Nikah.

Bigmo

Addressed to all believers; can woman expose herself to male servant/slave/gardener or man to his housemaid?

231 hence succeed the believers
232 the ones who they in their prayers humble
233 and the ones who they about the nonsense averse/turning away
234 and the ones who they of purification works doing
235 and the ones who they of their private parts guardians
236 only over their spouses or what possess their right hands so indeed they not blameworthy

What does concubine has to do with male servant or female servant? What is your understanding of a concubine?

nimnimak_11

Showing gentials to a doctor for treatement does not mean that the man is nomore guarding it.

The point is

What I actually said was that ungaurd includes sex. You did not comment on that. Here it is again
Can you deny the logic that
the guarding of one's private parts includes not engaging in sexual activity with it and that unguarding of one's private parts entails exactly the opposite?

You either did not see this or are avoiding this. I'm inclined to think that you did not see this.

Red part seems to be in your mind not in Qur'aan. What is inscribed therein is to enter into Matrimonial Bond with them-marry them, take them in Nikah.

That's what you got from 235-6? That's kind of a huge stretch. One that I cannot agree to.

nimnimak_11

Also Mazhar

One cannot show their doctor their private parts because they are not of the following

2431 And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

Unless you understand them as MMA. Now can you comment on whether we can show doctors our private parts or not?

So you have a female. She has breast cancer. Quran says not to show it to the doctor. Must she die? Obviously not. Doctor must be MMA. Have you any other explanation?

Noon_waalqalami

I will address the other point about muhsinat later but I want to understand your point about musfaihun first
To become guarded in a life long commitment to one partner as oppossed to just marrying that partner for the sake of sex. That is what I mean.

Peace nimnimak,

Why marry when according to your understanding they can have premarital sex with anyone, right?
Simply go to nearest brothel "befriend" one of those old non-chaste for a day, what's to stop them?

Ok but a distinction needs to be made at 424 here is why

424....and permitted to you what beyond these that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na Adulterous

Do you agree with the above? Since it cannot be the case that musafihun can mean fornication in there so we must either take it as only adultery or just sex.

If anyone says A not B it doesn't have to be opposite. Consider the following example

Nyma, when you get married, make sure you get married for independence not sex/adultery. Is there anything logically wrong here? Does there need to be opposites? If not then why does there need to be opposites at 424 with regards to muhsinat and musafihuna?

Who getting married for independence, guys?
You have the genders mixed up, wrong verse.

424 m-h-s-n-y-n (masculine plural) not m-s-a-f-h-y-n (masculine plural)
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery

425 m---n-a-t (feminine plural) not m-s-a-f--a-t (feminine plural)
Siin-Fa-Ha = musafihun - one who commits fornication or adultery

nimnimak_11

Peace Noon

Who getting married for independence, guys?
You have the genders mixed up, wrong verse

With regards to 424 yes it is directed at men who are marrying women.
But I was not quoting a verse. I was just giving an example. The example I gave was only to show that muhsinat and musafihun don't have to be logical opposites just because of the word gheyra (not)

More examples If you go to college, go there to study not to fornicate. Study and fornicate are not opposites but logically they work here despite the word not

So are we in agreement that musafihun and muhsinat need not be opposites?
Also
With regards to musafihun, are we in agreement that it cannot mean fornicate/fornication at 424?

Why marry when according to your understanding they can have premarital sex with anyone, right?
Simply go to nearest brothel "befriend" one of those old non-chaste for a day, what's to stop them?

Why marry to have sex? That's just like a really documented version of paying for sex with a waiting period.
The point of marriage is stability in a life long commitment that makes starting a family a good condition. Without this kind of stability we'd have orphans and broken families like you see in some societies today because people fail to marry for the right reasons or just decide to have sex for lust irresponsibly. Like your brothels example (irresponsible lustful sex)

From a Quranic perspective, that which potentially stops them is fahisha and transgression. More importantly they cannot actually penetrate or do anything that could lead to children because of 2237 and 2433. That is my view.

This leaves responsible, sexual activity with one's girlfriend/fiance.
This IMO aids in the understanding of one another more effectively before marrying each other.

To prohibit this on a generation is IMO detrimental to them rather than beneficial.

Bender

Ok but a distinction needs to be made at 424 here is why

424....and permitted to you what beyond these that you seek with your wealth
mu-h-sin-n-y-na guarded not mu-s-a-f-h-y-na Adulterous

Do you agree with the above? Since it cannot be the case that musafihun can mean fornication in there so we must either take it as only adultery or just sex.

Salaam,

I understand it like this
424 "... ..."
424 "...And lawfull for you is everything beyond that, that you seek with your wealth for protection purpose not for lust..."
I don't know how to formulate it in good English.
With other words I think this part of the verse is how YOU have to be, not how they have to be.

I think 425 is how THEY have to be
"... ..."

Also check 55 and how it is different from 425 I think this is also how YOU have to be
55 "... ..."

See how the bold underlined is different in 55 in comparison to 425

Also note that in 55 (the beginning of the quoted part) is already talking about AlMuhsinaat so as per my current understanding the part I gave colors are not talking about AlMuhsinaat but the purpose of YOUR actions (424 and 55) and the purpose of what THEY are given (425).

Salaam,
Bender

btw this is only my first look at the subject, I could be totally wrong. So corrections are welcome.

Mazhar

The point is

What I actually said was that ungaurd includes sex. You did not comment on that. Here it is again
Can you deny the logic that
the guarding of one's private parts includes not engaging in sexual activity with it and that unguarding of one's private parts entails exactly the opposite?

The guarding of genitalia means only to protect them from abusing it. And this is what sexual activity is. Exposing one's private parts for medical purposes is not synonymous to unguarding genitalia. I don't know why such simple thing is not being allowed to enter the brain.

Mazhar

Quote
Red part seems to be in your mind not in Qur'aan. What is inscribed therein is to enter into Matrimonial Bond with them-marry them, take them in Nikah.
That's what you got from 235-6? That's kind of a huge stretch. One that I cannot agree to.

Read back 424 and 425.

nimnimak_11

The guarding of genitalia means only to protect them from abusing it. And this is what sexual activity is. Exposing one's private parts for medical purposes is not synonymous to unguarding genitalia. I don't know why such simple thing is not being allowed to enter the brain.

Evidence prevents it. Perhaps you should look at it

And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

How can these women expose their breasts to a surgeon for a check up?

nimnimak_11

Read back 424 and 425.

I have many times. What is your understanding of muhsinat at 424?
If we force and narrow the Ma malekat aymunkum, to just one category we face problems. For starters, the doctor problem. Can you solve that issue

And tell the believing females to lower their gaze and keep covered their private parts, and that they should not reveal their beauty except what is apparent, and let them put forth their shawls over their cleavage. And let them not reveal their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or fathers of their husbands, or their sons, or the sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or the sons of their brothers, or the sons of their sisters, or their women, or those maintained by their oaths, or the male servants who are without need, or the child who has not yet understood the composition of women. And let them not strike with their feet in a manner that reveals what they are keeping hidden of their beauty. And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed.

Breast cancer? What should be done to not go against the Quran but treat the cancer at the same time for women?
If this can be solved then we can say that MMA does not necessarily need to encompass doctors.