A system that is better then what the koran recommends?
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I watched Peter Jospeh's videolecture on the zeitigest movment//Venus Project
which included the Circle City, no money, no cars, and no Property....
(Abdun Nur Has a Similair type of System which he defines I think as the real "Islamic" System.)
As far as this zeitigust/venus tyepe of system goes...
I think the Quranic System is the best. I think that Zeitigest type system as similar and compatible ideas to the Quranic system...but I dont think its Practicle.
The Quranic Outline seems more Logical and Reaslistic.People need an army, They (most) Like and love the Money Idea, and most will always want to have a Right to Property.
(I for one...Love my right to Property and would not want to give that up...even if its defined as "Primitive".If you are Suggesting that Some Guy created a Better System than what "Allah" has Revealed (keeping in mind that Allah is the Creator of All things within this reality/univerese/etc)....then I would ask you to Reconsider your statement. please...D
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My Idea is simple
If I have bought a new recorder,I must read the instructions carefully.
These instruction are more trustable than any others.Why?
Because Those came from the ones who made the recorder.They know every thing about it.
Allah made us. and he knows what is good for us. That's it -
Peace
First of, i agree with some of the ideas of jacque fresco. But ideal society? His ideas are far from an ideal society. I agree with his view about having a resource based economy. But solving all our problems through technology alone? No. There is no logic in it.
It seems that fresco thinks that we can solve all our problems with technology. From my analysis, he claims that if we have sufficient technology, then greed, apathy and every other inner disease will dissappear. But is this really true? This approach is an outside-in approach. And it is one-sided as well. Personally i believe in an inside-out approach. And i have seen that an inside-out approach to solving problems in society is more realistic and practical than any other approach. Let me give you an example, if a kid steals some fruit from a grocery store, and he is put in jail for that, do you think the punishment of being put in jail will end his stealing habits? Sometimes maybe. And maybe the kid will stop stealing for even a couple of years (short-term results). But most of the time, this approach does not work. This is an outside-in approach. This approach does not seek to find the causes for why the kid steals. The approach only wants to get rid of the symptoms. If the kid for example is poor and steals some fruit to survive, then he will still be poor when he comes out of prison. You see, being poor = the cause. While stealing = symptoms. You see, if they put him in jail for stealing (getting rid of the symptom), then his underlying cause for stealing will still be with him and inside him when he comes out of jail. And a couple of months or years later, he will start stealing again, because he is still poor. By putting the kid in jail, they will get rid of his symptoms, but not his cause. So as we can see, this outside-in approach is not very realistic and does not give great results. It's actually a disaster. And this approach does more harm than good.
The outside-in approach is based on fear and power, not on love or understanding. If instead of putting him in jail, they put the kid in a seminar/course where he learns why stealing is wrong, they teach him how to make money, how to get a job, how to grow food in his own garden, then the chances are higher that he will stop stealing permanently. Because the course/seminar will get rid of the causes instead of the symptoms. The approach is an inside-out approach, and it is based on mindfulness, reality, practicality, simplicity, love, understanding, compassion and education. But this inside-out approach threathens the self-interests of many great corporations and institutions, therefore it will probably never replace the conventional approach.
Man is not a machine. A materialistic society will only lead to materialistic solutions. On some aspects, technology has made our lifes easier? But it also made our lifes worse. In the past you went to your friends and had a cup of coffe. You met your friends in an real environment. But today you talk to your friends through facebook (technology). You meet them in a fake environment. Facebook is not the real world. Technology can not solve everything, mankind has spiritual needs as well. Mankind has both material and spiritual needs. While fresco adresses the material needs, he don't adress the spritual needs of humans.
I agree with his view that we do not need politicians and bureaucracy. Politicans and Bureocrats only make our lives more complicated.
And what he don't mention in his video is; who is going to own the technology. Will some corporations have monopoly on technology? The same technology that free you, is the same technology that can trap you.
And more technology = More pollution. Off course there are exceptions, like for example "Wind Power". But honestly, we do not need more environmental damage through bad science and unethical technology. What we need is more natural solutions for the planet. We don't need a technomythological society.
Some quotes about technology
?Technology is ruled by two types of people those who manage what they do not understand, and those who understand what they do not manage.?
- Mike Trout
?The most exciting breakthroughs of the 21st century will not occur because of technology but because of an expanding concept of what it means to be human?
- John Naisbitt quotes
?Technology does not run an enterprise, relationships do?
- Patricia Fripp quotes
?The greatest danger in modern technology isn't that machines will begin to think like people, but that people will begin to think like machines?
- Unknown
?Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal.?
- Albert Einstein
?Technology is a way of organizing the universe so that man doesn't have to experience it?
- Max Frisch
?Technology... is a queer thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other.?
- Carrie P. Snow
?If we continue to develop our technology without wisdom or prudence, our servant may prove to be our executioner.?
- Omar Bradley
?Technology is destructive only in the hands of people who do not realize that they are one and the same process as the universe.?
- Alan Watts
?Technology is a way of organizing the universe so that man doesn't have to experience it?
- Max Frisch
?It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.?
- Albert Einstein
?Technology makes it possible for people to gain control over everything, except over technology?
- John Tudor
?Once a new technology rolls over you, if you're not part of the steamroller, you're part of the road.?
- Stewart Brand
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Nice David_k. Well said indeed! bravo
you braught up a Good point about *Who owns the technology and *Spiritual/non-material Needs
I Deffinatly think that at least 99% of all crimes are due to Economic-Constriction/oppression.
In fact that is basically what the Quran Actually Says!
The Devil Threatens you with Poverty, and enjoyns you to act niggardly.
meaning, He (and his Oppressor Regime) Construct Systems in which are geared to make you indigent..which will then put you in situations where you are tempted to act niggardly (better word= unrightious) for Survival.Which is why I feel Islam is great in this aspect because it
A) Encourages Muslims to "Struggle hard with their Wealth" and "Be Patient"
B)Demands that they provide "OBLIGATORY" Solidarity whether in Revolutionary Force, Zakat (Charity), or in small scale greetings and good manners.
C) Provides reasons why this Soldarity is not only important, but needed...as well as provides incentives (Recompense 100 fold i think) for doing these deeds.
(i.e. The Good is NOT equal to the bad, and the Good will be doubled #-fold either in this life and/or the afterlife).The Problem I see with Most Athiests such as the Zeitigest Movment/Venus/etc... is that There is the common belief that Morals are nothing but human innovations. This can become problematic. This can backfire severly. I think it it harder to be a passionate rightious person as an Athiest (and thats my own personal experiences/biases but i think its true). With no religous foundation (which teaches the concept of "Fitrah" or Natural-Islam) I think the people are in a constant battle with themselves and their Ego's or the many ego's which they Possess...(and Spirituality is the only way to rid of these egos.)
which brings up your point of lack of Spirituality.
I think the Fiat Currency System is great and convienient. (as long as its gold backed.) I havent heard anything in the Quran speaking against it and feel if looked at and followed properly it can solve alot of problems...(haha I KNOW abdun nur is going to debate this part)
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Te point here is to determine what the Quranic system is. As far as I have understood it, thre is noQuranic system. There are certain conditions that any system must meet to satisfy Quranic requirementes, but there is no Quranic system, and I think that is perfectly right, because there may be a variety of systems that can or cannot work, and no system is perfect, meaning all are liably to imperfection, degeneration and destruction, because they are material and human. Perfection and eternal durability are not of this world. For this world we ha yihad, permanente effort to keep always the balance or to attain it and keep it and for that we can move in any direction that is within the limits set by the Qur'an.
Salaam
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Do you know first what Qur'an recommands ? !
Anyways , you're comparing between the words of God by a man's words ..let me remind you that the man is creature and the God is the creator ..so no chance to compare nope.
I think there is another aim for this thread other than what someone recommands .
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Salaam, forgive me if I'm being stupid but how can an 'ideal society' exist with humans having free-will?
To me an 'ideal society' is a perfect society & no human can ever be perfect.
Those like myself with a strong belief in Islam & trying to live our lives according to The Qur'an will never be open to any other way of life.
So I think trying to lure a Muslim to an alternative non-Qur'anic lifestyles is completely pointless.
That's just my opinion!
Peace. -
Peace David
Wouldn?t there need to be some sort of governance? So isn?t politics kinda inevitable?
Technology has it?s good and bad it?s not necessarily more pollution? I guess it depends on the type of technology. Though with technology natural resources are used maybe even abused. But I agree we don?t need a ?techno-mythological society? but we can and we are benefiting from technology.
Peace ra786
you said "The Problem I see with Most Athiests such as the Zeitigest Movment/Venus/etc... is that There is the common belief that Morals are nothing but human innovations. This can become problematic."
you know let's assume morals are nothing but human innovations, what's wrong with that? people live in a society to live in harmony we need to be just right? and be on agreeable terms? so how do we agree on it? isn't technology a human innovation why is that ok but other things aren't? if there is no morals does that mean we live by our own rules? dunno sounds too open to many things.. which i doubt would be their direction or objective.
Peace Neaality,
Ideal doesn't necessarily have to be perfect. at least we all know perfection is sort for but never exactly attained so ideal would more like be "just" not necessarily "perfect".. actually maybe the system can be "perfect" but it doesn't mean people act/abide the perfect system.
and muslims who abide by the Quran wouldn't be sorting a life outside it, true that being said it doesn't mean everything that doesnt have an islamic label isn't "ok".
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Peace David
Wouldn?t there need to be some sort of governance? So isn?t politics kinda inevitable?
Peace Sarah
I forgot this thread. I hope i am not answering to late.
Yes, we need governance, but in an ideal society, we do not need politicians. Many youths are more ethical and care more about human rights and could have ruled our countries better than our current leaders. Most politicians don't care about what is best for the people, they only care about what is best for their self-interest. They waste money on weapons and military instead of using the money to improve our countries and our world. So in a Quranic System i believe that we would not need any politician, because then all people could have participated, voiced their opinions and decided. The only reason we have politicians is because people are conditioned to believe that politicians can rule the country better than the people. In the past kings and priests ruled our society, now the scientists and politicians are deciding how we should live and what we should do. The kings and priests have been replaced by scientists and politicans.
Anyway, let's get back to reality, to our man-made systems. Since we do not live in a ideal society (Quranic system/Natural system), democracy is the best of the current man-made systems we have. But not the typical democratic systems. Personally, i think that Instead of Indirect democracy (most modern democratic countries like Uk, USA, Canada have a system were the people elect representatives to make decisions for them), we should have a direct democracy (like the swiss system were the people decide themselves). http//www.switzerland.com/en.cfm/home/government/offer-Switzerland-Government-200065.html
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Peace David no problem
The question is, if we don't need politicians what is the platform for rules? or governing them?
The Swiss system let the people decide the rules rather than voting for a 3rd party to represent them which is better, i agree. though who presents the proposed laws? isn't it politicians in the end?
With power comes great responsibility.. many people would be tested in position of power don't you think? such as following self-interests, promoting their campaign even if it goes against their values/morals etc. it's kinda inevitable and only the noble/strong would be just.. at least voters in a Swiss system for example could well vote for or against unethical laws.
People are conditioned in a certain way however, anyone can start a political party but getting numbers is the issue.
I think people are conditioned especially in western societies "we live in a democracy we get all our rights by voting" so most will think why change the system, i think most wouldn't even ponder about changing it.
I wonder if any country would follow in Swiss footsteps.
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The problem with voting, at least in America, is that there are too many sub-agencies for people to realistically have a say, be represented, in what goes on at the top. Most people don't even have the time to vote that often, much less consider and weigh such options correctly.
Certain undesirable types are systematically rounded up and restricted of their rights, based on petty offenses and lack of prudence in the courtroom. Too much code going on in the mainframe.
Then, of course, the electoral college system of voting is obviously something which can be abused in decisive moments during elections. The past decade holds all the information we need to regroup our collective intelligence and put our focus towards something a little more ..."representative" of "humanity" ....regardless of what we call it or how we go about it, as individuals.
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This ...is what the Quran recommends.
Peace. -
I've been looking into Jacque Fresco's idea on creating an ideal society (Jacque Fresco's a social engineer, industrial designer, author, lecturer, futurist, inventor, and the creator of The Venus Project). And his ideas IMO appear to be far more superior then what the koran is recommending.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#
http//www.scribd.com/doc/7902573/Designing-the-Future-The-Venus-Project
There are parts of what he says that I don't agree with, but overall i think he is spot on.
what do you guys think?
peace.Peace,
Respectfully.I believe that if The Quran was The Law of the country, that such a country would be better, if not even The Best.
But if we could install in the country just 2215, 219 and 6141, God willing, the humans would never know recession, poverty and begging.God knows best.
God bless you all.
Peace. -
Peace Sarah
The question is, if we don't need politicians what is the platform for rules? or governing them?
I imagine everyone learn basic politics and participate in politics (whether they like it or not), and then all people govern the rules. But a fully detailed and complete answer to this question would take a lot of time to write. If you are interested in learning more about natural politics, i think that the quran has all the answers we need. The quran is complete, remember?
The Swiss system let the people decide the rules rather than voting for a 3rd party to represent them which is better, i agree. though who presents the proposed laws? isn't it politicians in the end?
Good question. It is Probably the politicians, but i am not sure.
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My Idea is simple
If I have bought a new recorder,I must read the instructions carefully.
These instruction are more trustable than any others.Why?
Because Those came from the ones who made the recorder.They know every thing about it.
Allah made us. and he knows what is good for us. That's ittrue
end of story
people are idiots these days looking for everything in an ideael form.....not realizing the user manual is already present in front of them
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I've been looking into Jacque Fresco's idea on creating an ideal society (Jacque Fresco's a social engineer, industrial designer, author, lecturer, futurist, inventor, and the creator of The Venus Project). And his ideas IMO appear to be far more superior then what the koran is recommending.
http//video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#
http//www.scribd.com/doc/7902573/Designing-the-Future-The-Venus-Project
There are parts of what he says that I don't agree with, but overall i think he is spot on.
what do you guys think?
peace.
Thank you very much for the link. Jacque Fresco is and exceptional man.
