Does Qur'an say husbands can HIT their wives?
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Nothing in the ending of the verse means we must take daraba non-literally in 3.34.
Can't you see that in every other example you guys produce from the Qur'an to show a non-literal usage of daraba - there is some qualification in the verse that means one must take it non-literally.
There is NOTHING that qualifies daraba in 3.34. There is no reason to take it non-literally.
Can anyone give me one good reason - from the text - why it doesn't mean hit?
And you all seem to have your different meanings for it?
Can't you see that it is your humanity that drives you to this - not the text!
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Daniel J. Boorstin said
The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge.And that's kinda rich! I'm not the one who dismisses 1400 years of Arabic Scholars, hadiths, etc... that all say this means "Hit".
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Nothing in the ending of the verse means we must take daraba non-literally in 3.34
Can anyone give me one good reason - from the text - why it doesn't mean hit?
I asked a simple question; translate exactly what it says at end of the verse (in red) and what it is refers to...
Btw, translate the last part of the verse...
??abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)"...
Fa'in 'Aanakum Fal TabghAlayhinna Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
ELSE IF they abide by you,
ELSE do not Tabgh on them
-- a way that God is high, mighty/great.You can cross-reference meaning here (how most appropriate verse too)...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
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Well in one way I really want to say good luck to you guys as I would dearly love to see Muslims move away from the harsh and violent beliefs many hold.
But for me it just shows that the Qur'an is not from God - if there is a God, which I'm doubtful about.
Anyhoooo.... I think I'll be heading back to the Ex-Muslim forum I usually hang out on
http//www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=forum
I may pop in again later.
Peace )
good luck to you too. )
Just a quick question how would you translate
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I asked a simple question; translate exactly what it says at end of the verse (in red) and what it is refers to...
Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
"But if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
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Well said!
from deep inside, we feel the same way, thats the main reason to rationalise that verse. Perhaps some day we'll be able to think independently and criticise quran where we feel its wrong. I also believe it is impossible to agree with quran on everything unless you are a blind follower.
Peace.
whose "we"? Speak for yourself.
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And that's kinda rich! I'm not the one who dismisses 1400 years of Arabic Scholars, hadiths, etc... that all say this means "Hit".
And for countless centuries people thought the world was flat. What a fallacious argument you bring. Why don't you just come out and say you are not interested in debating with Hadith Rejecters.
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good luck to you too. )
Just a quick question how would you translate
Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
Thus doth Allah (by parables) show forth Truth and Vanity...
But like I say there is always a clear qualification, wording, preposition, adverb etc... that gives clear reason whether it is to be taken non-literally - in this case there are two obvious ones. Firstly Truth and Falsehood are abstract nouns so one can't literally "hit" them and secondly the verse goes on to say "Likewise does God set forth parables." Can't really get clearer than that.
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Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
"But if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance) For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
..."seek not against them Means (of annoyance)"?
Why not cross-reference with verse below see if makes sense...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
Read...
Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i Wa Aribhunna
...and abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)...Fa'in 'Aa`nakum
ELSE IF they abide by you,Fal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't Tabgh on them (F)Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
-- A way that God is high, mighty/great. -
..."seek not against them Means (of annoyance)"?
Why not cross-reference with verse below see if makes sense...
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
Read...
Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i Wa Aribhunna
...and abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)...Fa'in 'Aa`nakum
ELSE IF they abide by you,Fal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't Tabgh on them (F)Sablan 'Inna Allha Kna `Alyan Kabran
-- A way that God is high, mighty/great.What point are you making?
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What point are you making?
Is it not clear to you when using cross-referrance and substitution exactly what the verse is saying?
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
Read...
Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i Wa Aribhunna
...and abandon them in the place of lying down and show them (thus)...Fa'in 'Aa`nakum
ELSE IF they abide by you,Fal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't Tabgh on them (F) -
Is it not clear to you when using cross-referrance and substitution exactly what the verse is saying?
Nope, could you spell it out for me.
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Yusuf Ali's translation is fine
Thus doth Allah (by parables) show forth Truth and Vanity...
But like I say there is always a clear qualification, wording, preposition, adverb etc... that gives clear reason whether it is to be taken non-literally - in this case there are two obvious ones. Firstly Truth and Falsehood are abstract nouns so one can't literally "hit" them and secondly the verse goes on to say "Likewise does God set forth parables." Can't really get clearer than that.
you are precisely right! Peace
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Nope, could you spell it out for me.
Wa Aribhunna or "and show them" (thus) refers back to Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i
"...and abandon them in the place of lying down" ELSE IF they abide by youFal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't you desire (Tabghū on them (F)Is it not clear to you when using cross-referrance and substitution exactly what the verse is saying?
399 Qul Y 'Ahla Al-Kitbi Lima Tauddna
An Sabli Allhi Man 'mana TabghnahIwajan Wa 'Antum Shuhad'u Wa M Allhu BighfilinAmm TamalnaSay "You The Book's people, why do you obstruct from God's path who believed, you wish/desire it crookedness, and you are witnessing, and God is not with ignoring what you are doing." (See also 786)
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Wa Aribhunna or "and show them" (thus) refers back to Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i
"...and abandon them in the place of lying down" ELSE IF they abide by youFal Tabgh `Alayhinna
ELSE don't you desire (Tabghū on them (F)I'm not being funny - but I don't have a clue what point you are trying to make.
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I'm not being funny - but I don't have a clue what point you are trying to make.
How does it say to "hit or show them"?
As stated not a step by step as some infer and no problem saying it in reverse; same thing?
Wa Aribhunna Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i
"?and show them and abandon them in the place of lying down?"Make sense now or do you really care?
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cosmicdancer,
Your reply to mine (#9) was woeful. It showed you had not read the article you said you had. Not only that, it showed you do not even know what it concluded.
But let's put aside your lie, and address your reply
Please post the verses and translations you want me to comment on - I'm sorry I don't have time to wade through huge walls of text.
No need to wade, the article is split nicely, and in section one contains an analysis of the very verses you referenced. A simple scroll through section one would find them in less than 30s. Do you have 30s to spare?
Simple really. If there is no qualifying preposition and or word - then there is no reason to take it non-literally.
That is not criteria. That is simply re-stating what you already said.
Nope - just to show it's relation to hit/strike.
You may be interested to read a previous post on this forum
The object here is the "dhikr " . Rephrasing "afa nadhribul thikra 3ankum " Shall we turn away the dhikr from you. The preposition is not for the thikr (which is turned away) but for "you ". Clearly dharaba here means turn away nadhribul thikra turn away the dhikr; 3ankum from you
Thanks for the info from tafseer al jalalayn, although I was hoping for a reply involving a gramamr rule of distinction, but it was only a curiosity, no big deal.
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How does it say to "hit or show them"?
As stated not a step by step as some infer and no problem saying it in reverse; same thing?
Wa Aribhunna Wa Ahjurhunna F Al-Maji`i
"?and show them and abandon them in the place of lying down?"Make sense now or do you really care?
So you are saying it can be read in reverse?
On what basis do you say that?
Can it be read with wadribuhunna first before Fa'ithuhunna?
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cosmicdancer,
Your reply to mine (#9) was woeful. It showed you had not read the article you said you had. Not only that, it showed you do not even know what it concluded.
But let's put aside your lie
Not a lie - I did skim though it, but like I say walls of text really put me off and I started skipping through it.
Please post the points you want to make here - I won't be visiting any links sorry.
