did Qur'anists know that the prophet has mentioned them ?

Thereformer1

With hadith you'll never know what Quran says. When Quran says 'A', hadith says not 'A'.

when Quran says" A", hadiths says not "A" in fact he says " B"

Mazhar

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When Bukhari and others were fabricating whatever came to their minds they even never bothered to know what can make anyone in the state . Unless something is placed physically before the eyes of someone to create visual illusion no perception occurs in the mind. Some stupid and ghoof fabricated this story.

abdalquran

well, wrong interpretation, the verse is clear, " I only follow that which is revealed unto me " including the revealing things is Qur'an, so Qur'an came in the beginning of verse, so if God wants to refer that the revealed thing is just Qur'an, he will refer it by " " in the end of the " " or if God wants to say that the revealed thing is just Qur'an, he will refer it by " " or " ". UNfortunately there is none of these things in verse refer to that the revealed is Qur'an alone.

Listan pal, lets not hide behind this grammatical nonsense. The Quran not only came in the beginning of the verse, it is the only thing mentioned in the verse. Why was the Prophet not told to say 'i cant change it EXCEPT with hadith' or 'i can abrogate or specifiy it with hadith' ? No no no, only the Quran is mentioned and thats the only thing which was revealed.

Thereformer1

So you are suggesting that the cause why most of Mushrekeen did not become Muslims since the Messsenger s.a.s did not give them hadith and they had no Bukhari and Muslim amonst them at that point in time?

well, let me correct your ideas , there were men before Bukhari and Muslim and these men gathered hadith before Bukhari and Muslim, Bukhari and Muslim just studied it and classified it.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0005.%20RAIB/51.%2017.73.gif
And their purpose/resolve/attempt was to try you the Messenger about the one, Grand Qur'aan, which We have sent to you so that you may say something other than the Qur'aan attributable to Us;
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.%20Tabweeb/0005.%20RAIB/51.%20a%2017.73.gif

this verse described a specific problem when the Qur'aysh( the non-believers from them) came to the prophet disputing with him to accept doing some things and making it valid for them and those things were against Islam, and the prophet with their insisting became so confused about that and he was at the point of making it valid but God infalible him for not doing this thing because if he did it, he would make another law not existing in Qur'an.

Anyways I've explained the context of this verse and about the other verses that you have stated, they are not under their context like this one that I have explained its context.

It is time that before landing straight into Hell, once stops attributing to the Messenger s.a.s. anything that is NOT written in Qur'aan and hence is NOT stated by him. Bukhari will refuse to take responsibility under the plea that he never said that what he is compiling is TRUTH.

well, the hadith is Sahih and there is no "" in it, Bukhari knows that lying about the prophet is a crime and the criminal will take a place in hell, so he would be more careful more than what you think . and one more thing the messenger " " not "s.a.s"

Leyna

and as ( Hijab) they want to make people without shyness

So people who don't believe hijab is an obligation want to "make people without shyness"? What is that supposed to mean? -\

Shyness is not a positive thing. Modesty is, shyness is not. And modesty is an attitude, it can't be obtained by putting a piece of fabric on your head.

And by the way, most of the ahadeeth that are being used to claim that God orders women to cover their heads are declared weak even by traditional scholars, for example the much quoted one in which the prophet allegedly said ?When a woman reaches the ages of adolescence, nothing should be seen of her except her face and hands?.

But your argument doesn't surprise me. It's usually what hadith supporters resort to if they can't bring proper arguments and proofs. They think by accusing others of "only following their desires" and "trying to make it easy on themselves" they can shut them up. Lame.

Before you bash people whose opinion you obviously don't understand, I suggest you ponder on the following that has been posted on here some time ago

Those who reject hadith only do so cause they are lazy and don't want to perform (insert random ritual/rule here)

I've found that most of us who do reject hadith only do so after years of reflection and sincere research/study to find the true deen. Not because we want to duck out of our duties but rather because we genuinely want to know what God wants of us. Far from taking the easy way out, this journey takes far more time / study / thought / reflection. Further, since we don't blindly imitate the scholars of the past, we have to "start fresh" for lack of a better phrase. For most of us, this takes a large paradigmatic shift in worldview and is anything but easy. We take nothing for granted and question everything. Again, none of this is easy or "lazy."

Those who reject hadith hate/disrespect the Prophet

You hear this quite often. If you reject hadith which are attributed to the Prophet, you hate him. You don't only hear it with the Prophet; they'll say things like, "Aisha related this hadith, do you hate Aisha too? Do you think Aisha was lying?" This is all besides the point. Quite simply, we say that these accounts were later created and attributed to the Prophet. This is simple history. This is human nature. Far from disrespecting the Prophet, we believe we are bringing the deen back to the way Muhammad / Abraham / Moses / Jesus / etc. practiced it. We believe following these man-made accounts that were related in his name is what disrespects the Prophet and paints him in a negative light.

Those who reject hadith simply don't know the real rules of Islam or have misunderstood what Islam is all about

I hear this a lot. Sunnis will assume those of us who reject hadith havent studied or simply speak from ignorance. They proudly show you verses like "Obey God and obey the Messenger" as if it's something we've never noticed.

Those who reject hadith are trying to imitate Western culture

This idea manifests itself in different ways and is a variation of the 1st point I made. They think you are trying to be lazy and take the easy way out, which they see as Western ideals. To them, its not possible that you may interpret the Qur'an differently after much study. To them, it MUST be that you're someone who is lazy and who is not pious/faithful enough to follow the myriad rules/rituals of the true Islam.

http//www.free-minds.org80/forum/index.php?topic=5594.0

(sorry, the link is not working because this was posted before the board was re-done)

Thereformer1

"
When Bukhari and others were fabricating whatever came to their minds they even never bothered to know what can make anyone in the state . Unless something is placed physically before the eyes of someone to create visual illusion no perception occurs in the mind. Some stupid and ghoof fabricated this story.

the story is not fabricated, the which stuff exists and the types of which stuff plenty and it depends in the ability of the magicians (some do silly tricks, some powerful tricks from hurting people and control their lives( under what God has made in our destiny), some do sorcery and some use black magic).

and the prophets are not away from not being bewitched (if God wants to show that they are human after all), look for the story of Moses when he saw what the magicians threw from sticks and cords which they are turned into snakes.

abdalquran

hey first of all respect the prophet or the debate will take another way .
second of all , write all the hadith , not just what you want . the hadith is

" ( , , , . . . . , , , ) (326

here Aisha may God be pleased with her describe a journey when the prophet was bewitched and he said to her that he had done a thing which in fact he had not done, well if you're clever enough you'll see the use of the verb "do" which different totaly from the verb "say" .
and one more thing in this time when the prophet was bewitched he came in his thoughts that he slept whith his wives which is in fact he had not done .
then the prophet told them about the place of where they put the witch stuff and they abolished it

Firstly, I didn?t narrate the hadith. Bukhari did. Blame him.

Secondly, this is NOT the same hadith which I quoted. You have no proof that it is the same event because Bukhari simply recorded random bits of information.

Thirdly, you?re right that the verb is do (yaf3alu) but doesn?t hadith include deeds of the Prophet as well? Are you saying he can be bewitched in doings but not sayings?

Fourth, can you please quote from where you get that this ?bewitching? thing is only for sleeping with his wives and nothing else?

Mazhar

well, let me correct your ideas , there were men before Bukhari and Muslim and these men gathered hadith before Bukhari and Muslim, Bukhari and Muslim just studied it and classified it.
this verse described a specific problem when the Qur'aysh( the non-believers from them) came to the prophet disputing with him to accept doing some things and making it valid for them and those things were against Islam, and the prophet with their insisting became so confused about that and he was at the point of making it valid but God infalible him after doing this thing because if he did it, he would make another law not existing in Qur'an.

Anyways I've explained the context of this verse and about the other verses that you have stated, they are not under their context like this one that I have explained its context.

well, the hadith is Sahih and there is no "" in it, Bukhari knows that lying about the prophet is a crime and the criminal will take a place in hell, so he would be more careful more than what you think . and one more thing the messenger " " not "s.a.s"

Please try to translate the Words of Allah and find that the context is built in the verse. And why Bukhari failed to call his compilation as Al Haqq when you proclaim that he thought and there is no "" in it"? What you are saying, did he say or claimed this? If yes quote him. And perhaps I need not say and tell an Arab that the word "Sahih" has a built in element of doubt in it.

Thereformer1

Listan pal, lets not hide behind this grammatical nonsense. The Quran not only came in the beginning of the verse, it is the only thing mentioned in the verse. Why was the Prophet not told to say 'i cant change it EXCEPT with hadith' or 'i can abrogate or specifiy it with hadith' ? No no no, only the Quran is mentioned and thats the only thing which was revealed.

well, I know arabic very well and I can prove that the verse didn't talk about Qur'an only, God revealed some future events to his prophet, these future events some of them are not mentioned in Qur'an. According to my opinion that God wants from the prophet to warn the next generations after his death(Muslims generations), and to strethen his message in the future because people now when they read the hadith sahih, they found that some cases in hadiths are so miraculous like the building of the mosque in Sana'a (it is a geographical Miracle from the prophet where there was no GPS no Satelittes to know the exact Latitude and longitude and to know the right directions)

Mazhar

the story is not fabricated, the which stuff exists and the types of which stuff plenty and it depends in the ability of the magicians (some do silly tricks, some powerful tricks from hurting people and control their lives( under what God has made in our destiny), some do sorcery and some use black magic).

and the prophets are not away from not being bewitched (if God wants to show that they are human after all), look for the story of Moses when he saw what the magicians threw from sticks and cords which they are turned into snakes.

This is the "hallucinating" effect of stories by Bukhari and others. Pl read Qur'aan it nowhere says that those ropes and sticks turned into snakes. It says that an illusion was created and it was perceived as ONE snake moving in the thoughts of the people. And remember "sehr" is called only when the effect should be perceived the same by all.

abdalquran

well, I know arabic very well and I can prove that the verse didn't talk about Qur'an only, God revealed some future events to his prophet, these future events some of them are not mentioned in Qur'an. According to my opinion that God wants from the prophet to warn the next generations after his death(Muslims generations), and to strethen his message in the future because people now when they read the hadith sahih, they found that some cases in hadiths are so miraculous like the building of the mosque in Sana'a (it is a geographical Miracle from the prophet where there was no GPS no Satelittes to know the exact Latitude and longitude and to know the right directions)

Oh ok, can you USING ARABIC ONLY, prove to me that the ayah talks about OTHER than quran? I'd like to see what grammar rules can imagine something which isnt even mentioned there. Thanks

Thereformer1

Firstly, I didn?t narrate the hadith. Bukhari did. Blame him.

Fistly, you did not write the whole hadith. so maybe you're trying to take what he is good for you.

Secondly, this is NOT the same hadith which I quoted. You have no proof that it is the same event because Bukhari simply recorded random bits of information.

this is the same hadith, and what I wrote is more detailed than yours . what ? I have no proof ..I have three books in front of me, so cut this thing off the situation.

Thirdly, you?re right that the verb is do (yaf3alu) but doesn?t hadith include deeds of the Prophet as well? Are you saying he can be bewitched in doings but not sayings?

Yes, according to the hadith, he was bewitched in doing things which in fact had not done, and the hadith narrated by Aisha and she to avoid that he was talking about private things she said "" and if we look about the meaning of the verb other than "do", we will find that the verb means also the deeds of the privates things between the husband and his wife.

Fourth, can you please quote from where you get that this ?bewitching? thing is only for sleeping with his wives and nothing else?

Quote ??? I have books in front of me and I gave you the information so go look for it yourself and be sure. I interpret the meaning of the verb "yaf3alo" and it is with no doubt means "sleeping whith his wives" because we use this verb in arabic when we want to refer to sexual intercourse.

Thereformer1

This is the "hallucinating" effect of stories by Bukhari and others. Pl read Qur'aan it nowhere says that those ropes and sticks turned into snakes. It says that an illusion was created and it was perceived as ONE snake moving in the thoughts of the people. And remember "sehr" is called only when the effect should be perceived the same by all.

Yes , I agree that Moses saw the sticks and the cords as snakes (it's the illusion of Magic ), so I want just to pointed out that prophets are not away from being bewitched.

darcus

Salamun alaikum,

Reformer - you have the audacity to accuse Allah-alone worshippers of disrespecting the Prophet (S) and you are doing the very thing by saying that he (S) was bewitched, or capable of being bewitched

257 Yet they say, ?What sort of messenger is this who eats food and goes about in the market-places? Why is not an angel sent down to him to act as a warner together with him??
258 ?Or why has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he not a garden for enjoyment?? The wicked say, ?You are but following a man bewitched!?
259 See what sort of examples they apply to you! They have strayed too far to find a way.

When you are talking about the other prophets
26150 Be mindful of God and heed me.
26151 And do not obey the command of those who trespass the bounds of justice and equity.
26152 Those who spread corruption in the land, and reform not.?
26153 But they replied, "You are but one of the bewitched.
26154 You are just a mortal like us. So bring us a miracle if you are a man of truth."

Saying the he (S) was bewitch-able is a sign that he (S) was a mortal is not the right thing to say - it says that he was capable of being influenced by something which does not exist. Magic does not exist. Period. Just because you don't understand something does not make that thing magic or witchcraft. If there is such a thing as witchcraft - prove it, in a controlled environment. Illusions and trickery are different - like camera tricks. But that is what they are, they are tricks - nothing more. Do you think that the noble rasool (S) would be effected by illusions? I think it is you who should think twice before insulting ANY of the exemplars of humanity.

Peace
d

Thereformer1

Oh ok, can you USING ARABIC ONLY, prove to me that the ayah talks about OTHER than quran? I'd like to see what grammar rules can imagine something which isnt even mentioned there. Thanks )

(15) (16)

this is the verses in arabic, what you don't know that here in these verses the infidels asked the prophet to bring to them another book from sky like Qur'an or change it, and the answer from the prophet was that he just said what God revealed to him and that if God's will was not to recite him or make it known, he will not do it. so you chose the wrong verse .because as I see it's out of their context yes hmm ..so the verse talks about something else.

Leyna

I hope you know that declaring takfeer on someone is a serious sin, reformer.

and what's really makes them out of the context of Iman"faith" despite all being a followers of the book of Allah

O you who believe! When you go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation "Thou art not a believer!"...
494

Thereformer1

Salamun alaikum,
Reformer - you have the audacity to accuse Allah-alone worshippers of disrespecting the Prophet (S) and you are doing the very thing by saying that he (S) was bewitched, or capable of being bewitched

Salamun Alaykom,

well, as I see " " ..I respect my prophet peace be upon him, and as I said that the prophet are not away from which stuff after all they are human as well with some Major difference that the which stuff can influence in human in a severe way (if it was in one's destiny) but in the case of prophet the which stuff can not influence in him but he will feel it plus that he will show them how to abolish it.

257 Yet they say, ?What sort of messenger is this who eats food and goes about in the market-places? Why is not an angel sent down to him to act as a warner together with him??
258 ?Or why has not a treasure been bestowed on him, or why has he not a garden for enjoyment?? The wicked say, ?You are but following a man bewitched!?
259 See what sort of examples they apply to you! They have strayed too far to find a way.

I don't see any point of stating these verses, offtopic

When you are talking about the other prophets
26150 Be mindful of God and heed me.
26151 And do not obey the command of those who trespass the bounds of justice and equity.
26152 Those who spread corruption in the land, and reform not.?
26153 But they replied, "You are but one of the bewitched.
26154 You are just a mortal like us. So bring us a miracle if you are a man of truth."

first of all, what you stated here is the beginning of the message of the prophet, when the infidels and the non-believers called the prophet peace be upon him that he is one of the bewitched, so there is no relation between what I stated in hadith and what you stated from Qur'an (again you chose the wrong verse) .

the verse talks about a specific period when the infidels have spread that this man "the prophet peace be upon him" is just a bewitched one for one thing is weakened his Morals and because the people in this period of time were afraid from which stuff because it was like a curse from a which or a bad signs of following this person that he was bewitched or touching it, because they were thinking that the curse will spread on them too.

so this is the cause of the shadings of this verse, so nothing at all touched the subject.

Saying the he (S) was bewitch-able is a sign that he (S) was a mortal is not the right thing to say - it says that he was capable of being influenced by something which does not exist. Magic does not exist. Period. Just because you don't understand something does not make that thing magic or witchcraft. If there is such a thing as witchcraft - prove it, in a controlled environment. Illusions and trickery are different - like camera tricks. But that is what they are, they are tricks - nothing more. Do you think that the noble rasool (S) would be effected by illusions? I think it is you who should think twice before insulting ANY of the exemplars of humanity.
Peace
d

what ? yes the prophet was Mortal, what do you mean that he wasn't ?

what again ? Yes Magic exists and God told us about his power but at the same time told us that who has been attacked by Magic, he has to be patient because after all he is under the mercy of God and this is a test for him(the bewitched) to see his real faith .

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my brother, the Jewish were magicians and they have used magic to separate the man from his wife. Go read a little bit of Qur'an , there are more than 10 verses talk about Magic.

Thereformer1

I hope you know that declaring takfeer on someone is a serious sin, reformer.
O you who believe! When you go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation "Thou art not a believer!"...
494

ah thank you for the advice but I've pointed out what God said not me .

(65)

But no, by thy Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Leyna

That verse says people who don't believe in ahadeeth are unbelievers? http//www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/aktion/action-smiley-061.gif

Thereformer1

So people who don't believe hijab is an obligation want to "make people without shyness"? What is that supposed to mean? -\

do you know that Fatima Azahraa may God be pleased with here (the daughter of the prophet peace be upon him) that when she was dying, she ordered his husband "Ali" that when it'll be die, they must cover here by a large clothes and to add the Palm leaves inside the clothes to make sure that her shape and her contours of her body will not be known. look at this great values, she is going to die and yet she still want to be covered from eyes(not like the girls today) who they said that Hijab is not an obligation (why this woman take it as an obligation?).

the verse of Hijab

{ }. ( 31).

so as I see you're Qur'anist or unQur'anist ? ??? .

Shyness is not a positive thing. Modesty is, shyness is not. And modesty is an attitude, it can't be obtained by putting a piece of fabric on your head.

see above .