Pork & Logic
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If we don't see any logical readon not to eat pork this can mean two things
- we don't have enough knowledge yet to know why,
OR
- we are forbidden to eat it, as an obeidience act. No other reason than "because God told us, and we accept it"
What do you think? The second reason reminds me of some martial art classes I was in when the teacher asked things just for the purpose of testing its students trust in him.
Does that makes sense? -
Peace be upon you MZ,
please check out
122,1337,16103,20113,26195,3928,413,4144,427,433,4612.Yes, I know that THIS reading(quran) was sent down in Arabic. I also remember that it is a confirmation of what was already here. How does this effect anything I have stated? Arabs do not use symbolism? In fact, aren't LETTERS symbols? Letters are only shapes that bring about an idea, and it is the same with pictures. You can have a physical picture in fornt of you, or you can visualize a picture in your head.
I think what allah is saying is the Book is written in plain Arabic so that one can easily understand,i don't know why you want to make things complicated by assuming its mostly symbolic.
But you see, easy and hard are all subjective, what is easy for one person can be hard for the next. I find that much more of the message has opened up to me by looking at it symbolically.
Its the people handling and/or the translators who i think have muddled,it.
what do you think?
I am still weighing the evidence, so far, symbolism is leading.
What I keep in mind is that this is nothing new, the pig has been used in symbolism for a long time.
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Salaams idolfree,
so you think,Allah wanted us to guese at what the symbols meant?Any language is for communications,but obviosly symbols are/can be used aswell but only if the people you want to communicate a message to know what the definition of a symbols is -like in physics or chemistry,so accordingly Allah still needs then in your case to give us the definitions as i belive he hasnn't yet?Or has he?
Salaams.
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Peace be upon you MZ,
Salaams idolfree,
so you think,Allah wanted us to guese at what the symbols meant?No, I think we are suppossed to reason them out just like we do everything.
Any language is for communications,but obviosly symbols are/can be used aswell but only if the people you want to communicate a message to know what the definition of a symbols is -like in physics or chemistry,so accordingly Allah still needs then in your case to give us the definitions as i belive he hasnn't yet?Or has he?
We are still debating definitions now that MOST of mankind disagree about, what is the difference? The God tells us to study the creation. Why?
We developed planes from studying birds
Submarines from fishso many lessons in the animals
(454) And in your creation, and what He scatters/distributes from a walker/creeper/crawler (are) signs to a nation being sure/certain
(2544) Or you think/suppose that most of them hear/listen or reason/comprehend , that they are except as the camels/livestock, but they are more misguided (in) a way/path
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Peace All,
I'm closely following this discussion. It is certainly giving me something to think about.
Does anyone know or have any idea what Isa is referring to in the context of ?eating and storing in your houses?? Could this be a reference to any meat that will eventually rot?
? AND I INFORM YOU OF WHAT YOU SHOULD EAT AND WHAT YOU SHOULD STORE IN YOUR HOUSES; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
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Peace be upon you Grourself,
I'm closely following this discussion. It is certainly giving me something to think about.
This is a fantastic discussion isn't it? D Who would have thought we would be discussing THIS! D
Does anyone know or have any idea what Isa is referring to in the context of ?eating and storing in your houses?? Could this be a reference to any meat that will eventually rot?
? AND I INFORM YOU OF WHAT YOU SHOULD EAT AND WHAT YOU SHOULD STORE IN YOUR HOUSES; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.
Ithink that could be a PORTION of what is meant. To me, this verse is telling us that the God's WORD (symbolized by Jesus, son of Mary) will inform us what we should "EAT" , that is, what we should take in both mentally and physically as nourishment for our minds and bodies, and also what we "STORE IN OUR HOUSES", which implies what we KEEP in our MINDS and BODIES.
Remember that the God's "House" is the laws of the God which protect us from outside elements.
So we should make sure that what we bring into our houses (eat) and what we store thier is proper.
With that said, you make good sense because on the physical level, meat becomes bad for us when it stays in the stomach for too long. While it is not prohibited, it makes sense that we should not eat as much of it as many of us do. God's Word and Science should compliment each other, or should be one and the same.
And a verifier of that which is before me of the Taurat and that I may allow you part of that which has been forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a sign from your Lord therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah and obey me.
WOW! Good verse! Yes, man makes so many things restricted, but the Gods Truth (His Word, born of the virgin mind) comes to set us free!
Go work Grourself D
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Dear all,
My conclusion
Meat is not forbidden, of any animal, but we should avoid meat from animals that dies without being slaughtered, meat that is not fresh or well preserved, meat that is slaughtered in some ritualistic way, and blood.
We can overlook these limits only if we are forced to, out of necessity.In short, be careful with anything you eat that comes from animals.
Am I way off?
Best regards
Ali Omar
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Salaam Ali,
According to you, is pork to eat? ?
salaam Zenje,
i think the pertinent question is...
is pork not to be eaten?
heck, just think, mankind had been eating 'pork' since 'the beginning..'
if 'pork is not to be eaten...why so? who said so?...
was it the the priests who had interpreted and said so...?
was it God who said so...?
we need to think carefully...
didn't God say not to prohibit things which He did not...?
do we play God...?
what did God mean when he mentioned 'kh z n r' not to be eaten?
does 'kh n z r' mean 'meat of pigs'?
does it mean 'rotting/rotten/bad' meat?
what does our common sense tell us...?
the question is not whether we should or not eat pork...
the question is, who do we follow?
God, or, the priests?peace.
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Dear Zenje, rossi,
Right now I am not sure what to think, but the discussion here has led me to believe that pork is not forbidden, and I can not find any strong arguments for the opposite.
Best regards
Ali Omar
salaam Ali,
i feel the same way...
but the mental conditioning that has been ingrained in me against it, is so strong that i don't think i will be able to consciously eat it...
perhaps, i shall not worry too much about it nor be too obcessed with it...peace, bro.
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Peace be upon you all,
Sorry that I am posting with nothing "real" to add to the discussion, but I just wanted to let you know that I am stuck in the same dilemma. It just doesn't make logical sense that pigs meat alone is restricted while so many other unhealthy meats and foods are out there. It strongly leans towards a SYMBOLIC meaning in my opinion on not being a greedy person. Greedy people grow from arrogance which comes from the ego. This is what casued the fall of "adam and his wife", they had rejecting thoughts(shayteen) from the mindset of desperation(iblis).
But I am still not thoroughly convinced. Does anyone have any opinions on the blood and other restrictions in those same verses? Is it possible to eat an animal without injesting blood in some way? (I am not the best of cooks so I am unsure, nor do I command the grill at any cookouts )
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Peace Idol,
Daman Masfuhan=blood poured forth or running blood. (6146)
I've been thinking that the blood restriction is qualified by this verse. A little of even highly poisonous substances are not necessarily harmful and sometimes even helpful. Just a thought.
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Right now I am not sure what to think, but the discussion here has led me to believe that pork is not forbidden, and I can not find any strong arguments for the opposite.
Thank you for your thoughts, even though I didn't word my question correctly. ops
Salaam
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Peace all,
I think it has been clearly shown by Shuaib, Sabo, Someone, and others that khanzeer cannot possibly mean ?bad meat I see? according to Arabic grammar, and I have not heard a single counter argument yet.
Even if we ignore the Arabic grammar (which I don?t), replacing ?pig? with ?bad/stinking/maggoty I see? doesn?t make any logical sense either.
6145 He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Point 1
Why ?meat I see bad??
Why does it have to be seen?
Often we can tell meat is bad from its smell, rather than its looks.
Why not ?bad meat I smell??It doesn?t say ?carrion I see? or ?blood I see?.
Why doesn?t it just say ?bad meat??
Point 2
All things in the list can be eating without physical harm. One can eat
- what has died of itself
- blood
- flesh of pig
- having someone/something else?s name mentioned upon food
without physically harming themselves. We are allowed to eat these items under necessity as a mercy from God.
Under necessity, to me, means if one doesn?t have recourse to other food sources. Personally, I would need to be starving in such a case.
What is the effect of eating rotten/bad/maggoty meat? Wouldn?t it give someone food poisoning, or make them violently ill? When someone is under starvation (or even under normal conditions), couldn?t eating rotten/bad/maggoty meat kill the person?
Is eating rotten/maggoty meat supposed to be a mercy from God??
peace
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Peace David, all,
Peace all,
I think it has been clearly shown by Shuaib, Sabo, Someone, and others that khanzeer cannot possibly mean ?bad meat I see? according to Arabic grammar, and I have not heard a single counter argument yet.
This is a reminder to those who remember.
i think the words '...wa lah ma-lkhinziiri...' means '...and meat rotten/bad...', as pointed out by mz.
Peace rossi,
I think your statement is wrong according to arabic grammar."meat rotten/bad" in arabic using "khinzir" as rotten would sound like "lahmoun khiziroun".
Or "the rotten meat" -->"allahmou alkinzirou"
Instead, in the arabic verses, there's "lahma alkhinzir" which translates as "meat of the khinzir", still to define what khinzir is.
The way "alkhinzir" is used in the verses shows that it cannot be an adjective for "meat".
I think we could improve our knowledge if we are humble and sincere. Arguing without sufficient knowledge of the Arabic language is a loss of a precious time.
Each detail in arabic text has a major importance for a better understanding. The comprehension can be false if one neglected some details and rules of the arabic grammar.
We have to consider both the context, the structure, the grammar and the meaning of each word to get a full picture.Our goal is to learn and we sould be able to reconsider our opinions.
The arrogance and pride is a brake to advance in the knowledge.
Allah firms His revelations and guides those who truly believe, to the Straight Path and their hearts humbly submit to Him.
Let not us be as those who had hearts with which they did not comprehend, and eyes with which they did not see, and ears with which they did not hear.
- And if the quran is being studied, then listen to it and pay attention, that you may receive mercy.
Peace
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Peace all,
The following verse contains a similar sentence than (lahma alkhinzir) in 2173
- And for the Jews We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
WaAAala allatheena hadooharramna kulla thee thufurinwamina albaqari wa alghanami harramnaAAalayhim shuhoomahuma illa ma hamalatthuhooruhuma awi alhawayaaw ma ikhtalata biAAathmin thalikajazaynahum bibaghyihim wa-inna lasadiqoona
shuhoomahuma/their fat implies
shuhoom albaqari = the fat of the "baqari/cattle"
and
shuhoom alghanami = the fat of the "ghanami /sheep"
In the same way for alkinzir, albaqari and alghanami cannot be an adjective for "fat".
There is no affense, the fat of the "baqari/cattle" the "ghanami /sheep" doesn't mean the boiled or roasted fat lol
Hope that helps
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Salam,
following is taken from HarunYahya.com
I thought it might be interesting.Kashif
PORK AND ITS HARMFUL EFFECTS ON HEALTH
He has only forbidden you carrion, blood and pork and what has been consecrated to other than Allah. But anyone who is forced to eat it-without desiring it or going to excess in it-commits no crime. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur'an, 2173)
Eating pork is harmful to health in a great many regards. This harm still persists today, despite all the precautions that are taken. First and foremost, no matter how clean the farms and environments on which it is raised may be, the pig is not by nature a clean-living animal. It often plays in, and even eats, its own excrement. Due to this and its biological structure, the pig produces much higher levels of antibodies in its body than other animals. In addition, far higher levels of growth hormone are produced in the pig compared to those in other animals and human beings. Naturally, these high levels of antibodies and growth hormone pass across to and collect in the pig's muscle tissue. Pork meat also contains high levels of cholesterol and lipids. It has been scientifically proven that these significant amounts of antibodies, hormones, cholesterol and lipids in pork represent a serious threat to human health.
The existence of above-average numbers of obese individuals in the populations of countries such as the USA and Germany, in which large quantities of pork are consumed, is now well-known. When exposed to excessive quantities of growth hormone as a result of a pork-based diet, the human body first puts on excessive weight and then suffers physical deformations.
Another harmful substance in pork is the "trichina" worm. This is frequently found in pork and when it enters the human body, it settles directly in the muscles of the heart and represents a possibly fatal threat. Even though it is now technically possible to identify pigs that are infected with trichina, no such methods were known in earlier centuries. That means that everyone who ate pork risked infection by trichina and possible death.
All these reasons are just a part of the wisdom in our Lord's prohibition on the consumption of pork. Moreover, this commandment of our Lord's provides complete protection from the harmful effects of pork under any conditions.
Until the 20th century, it was impossible to be aware of the danger posed to human health by pork. The fact that the Qur'an, revealed fourteen centuries ago, warns against this harm which has been incontrovertibly revealed with modern medical equipment and biological tests, is one of the miracles demonstrating that the Qur'an is the revelation of Allah, the Omniscient. Despite all the precautionary measures and inspections that take place in modern-day pig rearing, the fact that pork is physiologically incompatible with the human body and is a variety of meat harmful to human health has not altered.
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Peace ashraff,
Salamun alaikum...
I dont think GOD need a reason for forbidding pork in our diet. Just like Adam and his wife. God does not need a reason for forbidding the "Tree" in the Garden right.
To me it is all a test in upholding God's instructions.salam.
ashraff
Forbidden to you is that which is already dead, and the blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to other than God, and that which has been strangled, and that which has been beaten to death, and that which has fallen from a height, and that which has been gored, and that which the wild animals have eaten from except what you managed to rescue, and what has been slaughtered on alters, and what you divide by the arrows of chance. This is all vile (fisqun). (53)
O you who believe, intoxicants, and gambling, and altars, and arrows of chance are tools of affliction (rijsun) used by the devil. You shall avoid him so that you may be successful. (590)
Say ?I do not find in what is inspired to me forbidden except that it be already dead, or blood, or the meat of pig, for it is foul (rijsun) ; or what is corruptly (fisqan) dedicated to other than God.? Whoever is forced without seeking disobedience or transgression, then your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful. (6145)
The word "rijsun" is also used in 771, 995.
Peace
Marie