Is a Pregnant Woman, 1 person or 2?
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You know, Ive been doing some thinking after listening to some Human Rights Groups.
Ive been questioning, what Questions are Valid and what ones are invalid, and What is Splitting-hairs.
Many times, Femminsts will say the Government, Men, and even "god" (or what people call "god" have no right over her body.
Many of these New Feminists have viewed that a Woman can basically do whatever she wants with her body since he is the sole owner of it.
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/PES_Women-Body-rights-EN2.pngFor instance, The Pregnant Prostatue who charges a fine amount of Money for men to have Sex with her (while shes Pregnant with her child.)
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/preg.jpgThis got me thinking.... can a woman really do whatever she wants with her body? and When does she become 2 people?
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/pregnant-woman-pie.jpg
Is she "REALLY" eating for two?Scientifically, An Embryo or "baby inside the woman" will change depending on what the Mother Eats, drinks, and Does as Activities. So, therefore Scientists Conclude that a Mother's Actions Dictate (for the most part) how the child will generally be. Overeating Mother, usually means a heavier baby.
Her body also does change since it will absorb More nurtiants and will direct it to the baby giving the baby the essentials need to Evolve.
So, what a Woman Consumes WILL effect the baby.hummm.... hmm
I guess this does explain how a Mother who Smokes Crack, and Who Drinks Alcohol will ultimatly harm the baby because of it.
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/pregnant_0.jpgThis Often Leads to Mental Retardation, Birth Defects, and other challenges for the child. Such as Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/FASkid.gif
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndromeSo, I began to Question whether their claime is True.... IS the Mother...JUST 1 woman or is she a Human with another Human in her? and Legally Is she Responcible for the harms that have been done to her child?
If Someone Kills a Pregnant Woman, Did he ONLY kill her? or did He also Kill her baby along with her? Should this person be charged with two Murders? If you were the mothers Husband, Did The Criminal Kill ONLY your wife? or did he Also kill your soon to be son/daughtor? how would your judge this?
Then I started to realize, Perhaps a Woman IS responcible for what She does to her body and thus her child. If I were Forced to Go through this life with a Menal Problem, and a Birth Defect, I would probabily be VERY VERY upset with my mother and Blame her for my Condition. I would Honestly say she is Guilty for intentionally harming the Body that I lived in., thus harming my evolutionary upbringing.
Wouldnt you? ???So, If a Woman IS Leagally Responcible for her children and body, and Can be Proven that She Intentionally Harmed her child while Pregnant, should she Suffer a Punishment in the Leagal system? SO therefor, Is it really Soley Her Body or can the State/Government Intervene?
Also, as a side Question, I wonder if those who feel you are allowed to Drink Moderate Alcohol (meaning Drink as much as you wish as long as you are not Intoxicated..) I wonder if they also feel Pregnant women can and should do this.? I mean, According to that Logic... A Pregnant mother can drink a bit of Vodca Everyday (as long as she doesnt get intoxicated) and thus feed her baby it too. D (I hope its not your kid)
I Start to wonder, do Some Humans Do Radical and Harmful things just for the Spite of it? Just to be Rebellious because ethey "Can"? Are they Living their EGO or are they living like a Responcible Human who will effect other humans and nature with his/her actions.?
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State Activity
Criminal Law
While no state has enacted a law specifically criminalizing drug use during pregnancy, prosecutors have relied on a host of criminal laws already on the books to attack prenatal substance abuse. Women across the nation have been arrested and charged with a wide range of crimes, including possession of a controlled substance, delivering drugs to a minor (through the umbilical cord), corruption of a minor, and child abuse and neglect. Others have been charged with assault with a deadly weapon and manslaughter.Women who have appealed their convictions to their state supreme court have prevailed in all but one instance. Typically, courts have overturned these convictions on the grounds that a fetus could not be considered a child or person under criminal child abuse statutes, or that the legislature did not intend for an existing criminal statute to apply to a pregnant woman and her fetus. Other courts have found such convictions to be unconstitutional violations of women's rights to due process (because the state applied the law in a way that could not be foreseen by the pregnant woman) and privacy. Only in South Carolina has the state supreme court, in the 1997 case Whitner v. South Carolina, upheld the conviction of a woman charged with criminal child abuse for using cocaine during pregnancy. In that case, the court held that a viable fetus is a "person" under the state's criminal child endangerment statute, and that "maternal acts endangering or likely to endanger the life, comfort, or health of a viable fetus" could constitute child abuse.
Additionally, the Ohio Supreme Court, in its October decision In re Baby Boy Blackshear, found that a newborn testing positive for drug exposure is per se an abused child under the state's civil child abuse law, even though the law makes no mention of prenatal drug exposure. The law defines an "abused child" as one who suffers "physical or mental injury that harms or threatens to harm the child's health or welfare." Unlike the lower court, the supreme court said that it need not address whether a fetus is a child under the state's child abuse law, since a "postbirth" drug test indicated that drug exposure, and therefore abuse, had occurred. Accordingly, the state was justified, the court said, in its decision to terminate parental rights. State supreme courts in Connecticut and New York, however, have refused to treat pregnant women who used drugs as presumptively neglectful, while the New Jersey Supreme Court held that a newborn's addiction and symptoms of withdrawal, combined with a mother's failure to provide care, could be considered as a factor in terminating parental rights.
http//www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/03/6/gr030603.html
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Several Studies and Government backed Reseach Suggest NO amount of Drinking wile Pregnant.
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Some New Studies Say that Moderate Drinkers while pregnant is Ok, and does not do any Harm to to the Child.
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A NEWER research study says that "Moderate Drinking wile Pregnant" is not only Unharmful to the child but Actually Benifits and Helps the child out better then those who refrain.
http//www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5051517.ece
??? )
But then again I am sure some Studys will also show that , Injecting Heroine, snorting cocain, and performing Coprophagia may all have some positive benifits to your health. nope
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If you were that baby, and your mum did all these things while you were in the womb, would you feel OK with it? I for one wouldn't be.
This also closely ties into abortion. At what point after insemination does an egg become a human?
My opinion is that abortion is murder and the equivalent of burying your child alive. Clearly the means by which we murder our children has gotten more sophisticated than those ancient people we refer to as "barbarians" but the motive and the ends are the same.
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"barbarians" but the motive and the ends are the same.
I agree with you, The Abortion Part of it has been discussed in Various Threads in which Edip and others have argued that Anything AFTER the third Trimester is consitered a Human and therefore Murder according to Word play.
I am honestly unsure about what time it actually becomes a Human, but my instinct tells me that right when the Sperm Reaches the Egg and gets into Fusion then it is.
But that is a different discussion.
I want to focus more on the Womans Right aspect.
When can the State/Government Over-ride personal Rights? According to Law, the Government is supposed to do what is the Best interest of the Society, by using their integrety and care. That is why Criminals are to be arrested by police and punished for the well being of Society so that people do not get Oppressed by Mischef makers in the land.
But now Child absue really strikes a nerve with me.
I tend to always want to question abusive parents and this also includes pregant mothers. Though they have the Right to do what they want with their Bodies...Does this also mean they can do whatever they want with there kids?Argument #1 "An embryo (baby in the making) is not consittered a human being, therefore does not have Human rights...therefore does not have a Right to exist and also does not have a valid claim in reguards to Drug/Alcohol use as being consittered Child Abuse.
Rebuttle to Argument #1 This claim is Invalid on the FACT that whatever you do to an Embryo (baby in the making) You will effect it when it is Born. So If you have made the Embry Intoxicated, it will be born Mutulated/mentally challenged/and with Birth defects. Therefore YOU HAVE OPPRESSED a LIVING HUMAN, even before his departutre from the womb. I think it IS CHILD ABUSE.
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Peace everyone. peace
RA786, you raise some interesting points. However, I find your posts a bit confusing since you seem to address and mix up various different issues. Alcohol and drug consumption during pregnancy, abortion, child abuse, feminism, legal issues and a few more ...
What I understand from reading your thread is that you want to focus on the moral and legal issues of "child abuse" regarding an embryo, right? What I don't understand is how "new feminists" and the pregnant prostitute come into this. You seem to suggest that the majority of feminists believe they have the right to harm their unborn babies, based on the argument that their body is theirs. But I don't think that is true. The way I see it, the "my body is mine" argument was / is rather used in abortion debates, and imho it makes sense in that regard. Because however you feel about abortion, at the end of the day it is the woman's decision ... that's what this is about.
What the pregnant prostitute has to do with all of this I don't understand. Having sex while being pregnant does not harm a child, so what's the point? Sure, most people will find it strange, repulsive or objectionable, because we tend to associate particular things with "prostitution" and other things with a pregnant woman, and those two don't seem to mix. But is she actually harming her child? I don't think so. So why should we judge her?
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Thanks Leyna for replying.
My intention is not say All New Femminists because that is an ignorant Generalization. After reading into femminism, I have learned from many promenent Femminist women that there is a Difference between the Political Femminist Movement of the past and the New Sexualized Femminism that has a lot of Synomonous ideas with Satanism and the works of promenent satanists.
Sometimes I do tie things togeather because I feel there is a Link (in many moral aspects) in reguard to Sex and Satanism.
I have watched many vidoes and information thus leading to my conclusion that the Current Femminism or a.k.a. "New Femminist Movment" and the Mainstream Pop-culture Mind set of today is very intune with Satanism and Satanic Nature.I am only Asking Question, and Answering my questions to the best of my ability. I am not a Scholar, and I am fallable. So not everything I say may be true, only what I think its True So far.
The Pregnant Prostatue may not actually be Harming the Daughtor "physically" however, I am not only talking about Physical...I am also talking about Spiritual. There have been many writtings from Prominant Satanic Members who speak about Seeman and the Spiritual Properties. (non-physical) and the Different Energy's that gets mixed when having Sex. This knowledge can be found in many religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism etc...
I personally think she is Harming her Child when she has sex with many men (spiritually).
If Physical Harm is the Only Criteria for child abuse how about Mental and Emotional?I was also just Listing the Different ways some Mothers harm their child that they are pregnant with that is Accpetiable by Many in Society.
1)Alcohol drinking
2)Crack and Substances
3)Sex with multipul partners. etc...Also, you have said we shouldnt Judge her, however, I have yet to find the Commandment from Allah in the Torah, Bible, or Quran that says not to judge people.
So until I find that verese I think Judging is a Nessesary Method to use in calling out indecent behavior made by our fellow human brothers/Sisters. -
also, I just want to add, that I personally dont believe a Woman's Body is Entierly hers at the Moment of Pregnancy.
I think it would be Very Selfish to say that her body is Only hers at that moment.She has a new humanoid with a difference set of body parts and conciousness hade Half-ly of hers and half-ly of someone-else thus making a New Person.
What ever she does will effect the new to be person, as it is Growing inside of her.I feel she should be acountable to what happens to that embryo if it is provable that she deliberatly tried to endanger its life.
Basically in a nutshell, I feel the Embryo-Soon to be child has rights aswell...even from the Womb, and the mother should at least TRY to make an Attempt to be Decent in all aspects. both for her safety and the Spiritual, Mental, and Physical Progression of her child.
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Someone please quote the quran and let's also add in if a child is considered part of the parental property.
I think that a child is the Parents Property, however that doesnt entierly mean a Parent can do "whatever they want with it."
In the Quran it explains how a Person's Hands, Eyes, and Tounge will bear witness against You (your soul), even though those may be your property, you will be judged on how you use them.
A Penis may be a man's Property, however he will be judged on what evil or Good (halal/Haraam) activities he does with it. yes
Same with a woman. -
Thanks! You've seem to have put a lot of work into this.
A pregnant woman's body isn't just her body. It is the body of herself and the foetus in her womb. Therefore anything she decides to consume, she is also deciding to feed the foetus. So I agree, it is child abuse. It might seem a strong word but that's what it is in my opinion.
A Penis may be a man's Property, however he will be judged on what evil or Good (halal/Haraam) activities he does with it. yes
Same with a woman.Women have penises? confused
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Salam,
My intention is not say All New Femminists because that is an ignorant Generalization. After reading into femminism, I have learned from many promenent Femminist women that there is a Difference between the Political Femminist Movement of the past and the New Sexualized Femminism that has a lot of Synomonous ideas with Satanism and the works of promenent satanists.
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I have watched many vidoes and information thus leading to my conclusion that the Current Femminism or a.k.a. "New Femminist Movment" and the Mainstream Pop-culture Mind set of today is very intune with Satanism and Satanic Nature.Hm. I consider myself a feminist, and I certainly have no ties with satanism at all, nor does anyone I know. In general, I feel there are a lot of misconceptions flying around in regards to what feminism actually means. But this is not really the subject here, so maybe we should leave this discussion aside. I would be curious where you read this though, could you give me some of your sources?
The Pregnant Prostatue may not actually be Harming the Daughtor "physically" however, I am not only talking about Physical...I am also talking about Spiritual. There have been many writtings from Prominant Satanic Members who speak about Seeman and the Spiritual Properties. (non-physical) and the Different Energy's that gets mixed when having Sex. This knowledge can be found in many religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism etc...
I personally think she is Harming her Child when she has sex with many men (spiritually).
If Physical Harm is the Only Criteria for child abuse how about Mental and Emotional?I understand to a certain degree what you mean. And I agree that someone who sleeps with people for money harms herself (or himself) spiritually. However, I don't really think that this woman is harming her child too.
I was also just Listing the Different ways some Mothers harm their child that they are pregnant with that is Accpetiable by Many in Society.
1)Alcohol drinking
2)Crack and Substances
3)Sex with multipul partners. etc...Imo harming your unborn child through drug or alcohol abuse is wrong. But I don't understand where you're getting the notion from that this is "acceptable by many" since I never met anyone who condones this, quite the opposite.
confusedAlso, you have said we shouldnt Judge her, however, I have yet to find the Commandment from Allah in the Torah, Bible, or Quran that says not to judge people.
So until I find that verese I think Judging is a Nessesary Method to use in calling out indecent behavior made by our fellow human brothers/Sisters.I was not arguing from a scriptural point of view, just stating my personal opinion. I believe we have no right to judge a person unless we know their situation really well.
Things might not always be as they seem. Think of the story of Al Khidr who does some things that seem terrible and wrong at first sight, but in retrospect we learn that they made perfect sense.
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Thanks! You've seem to have put a lot of work into this.
A pregnant woman's body isn't just her body. It is the body of herself and the foetus in her womb. Therefore anything she decides to consume, she is also deciding to feed the foetus. So I agree, it is child abuse. It might seem a strong word but that's what it is in my opinion.
Women have penises? confused
laugh haha well......Some DO...lol
Thanks, actually, its a really sloppy post. i did it in 10 mins yesterday before work but I am trying to tie this in from another Thread
http//www.wakeupproject.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7687 Complex issue of Feminism.
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http//www.wakeupproject.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7687 Complex issue of Feminism
I am pretty much on my way to bed, so I'm too tired to read all of that right now. But what is being mentioned in the first post -- young girls dressed up like Barbie dolls etc. has nothing whatsoever to do with feminism! In fact, most feminists would fiercely oppose such a thing. Sexualizing children and reducing women to their looks is certainly NOT what feminism is about.
hypno
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Imo harming your unborn child through drug or alcohol abuse is wrong. But I don't understand where you're getting the notion from that this is "acceptable by many" since I never met anyone who condones this, quite the opposite.
confusedAccording to medical websites, there are still people who drink and do drugs while pregnant. There are still laws in some states that are willing to Prosecute these mothers, while there are still may Advocates who are willing to Protest this and feel the Government cannot interviene and that It is Ultimatley a Womans Choice what she wants to do with her body. (whether sexually, with Substance, or any type of thing)
I was not arguing from a scriptural point of view, just stating my personal opinion. I believe we have no right to judge a person unless we know their situation really well.
I disagree both Scripturally, and Personal Opinion. I agree a Full story with Evidence and Due Process is needed in order to make a Judgment...but I still think a Judgment must be made. There are some actions that do not have a reasonable excuse.I cannot kill my child and say "hey...you shouldnt judge me because you dont know me". you knowing my economic situation, love life, and Car information is Irrelevant. The point is I killed my child..and there really may be no excuse for it. This is also case by case.
For insatnce, I dont think the Helper that was with moses "murdered" the child because he was a Serveant of Allah therefore must have had probable cause... -
I am pretty much on my way to bed, so I'm too tired to read all of that right now. But what is being mentioned in the first post -- young girls dressed up like Barbie dolls etc. has nothing whatsoever to do with feminism! In fact, most feminists would fiercely oppose such a thing. Sexualizing children and reducing women to their looks is certainly NOT what feminism is about.
hypno
Salaam Leyna, I know...Thats not what I am refutting. I am not going against that fact. I know it has nothing to do with Feminism.
Maybe I didnt make things clear....if so I appologize.. ???I fiercley oppose it too. D I know thats not femminism.
Sexualizing/Exploiting Young women by Manipulation and Decpetive Intellegence is NOT FEMMINISM, just like Strapping a Bomb to yourself and Killing innocent people while stoneing women is NOT ISLAM. thats what I am saying.. confused
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Salaam Leyna, I know...Thats not what I am refutting. I am not going against that fact. I know it has nothing to do with Feminism.
Maybe I didnt make things clear....if so I appologize.. ???I fiercley oppose it too. I know thats not femminism.
Alhamdullilah. peace
OT ... why do you have a Kalashnikov in your avatar?
Good night. http//www.cheesebuerger.de/images/smilie/muede/g050.gif
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Salaam Leyna, and have a great night! D
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the ak-47 is my favorite antuiqe Gun and is one of the greatest guns ever created. It represents Strength and Solidarity to me.
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It is a Rendition of the Famous Malcom X picture, except with me instead.
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/Malcolm_X.jpg
3)The symbol above the "R" is Arabic Calligraphy for "Oh Lord, Advance me in knowledge". -
Malcom x was a Nation of Islam Follower who then Departed NOI and became a True Muslim (or what that ment for him). He because a Human Rights Activist and Opposed Rasism which made him a Target. He was at a time in his life where we was seeking justice and Truth, while remaing steadfast and Observant in religion.
I really admired his Political work and his religious outlook, and that is why I wanted to make a Rendition picture of him/me as my avatar. D
Peace/Salaam
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