shahr ramadan - 3 or 10 days of abstention

truthseeker171

The Quran prescribes a period of communal abstention of three days.

a support of the great effort initiated by Ayman to find the right timing of the period of abstinence.-

Some quranic arguments that support the duration of the period of abstinence of three days instead of a period of ten days

The period of abstention is related to the Arabic word -shahr-.
Verse 2185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.

... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -

The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.

This seems to be a compelling quranic ruling with a clear unambiguous time-frame.
An abstention out of the time-frame of the duration of the full moon is not suggested here.
There seems not to be another verse that could put this aside in a compelling way.

Other verses give only circumstantial evidence, compared to the value and precision of verse 2185.

Verse 2189 indicates that there is no quranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last ten days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the hadj and not for the communal event of the abstention during the shahr ramadan.
Regarding the perfection and completeness of the Quran the absence of mentioning the communal fast in this verse is rather compelling.
Verse 2183 gives very circumstantial evidence, but could be a further support for a period of abstention of three rather than ten days, since a fast of three days seems to be closer to the prescribed fast in the Torah of one total day.
Verse 2196 gives also circumstantial evidence, because it is related to the hadj and not to the regular period of abstention - this verse can be read both as a support for a ten and a three days period.
The three days are a communal fast of the poor probably during the full moon of the first three days of the hadj.
The seven other days are a private form of fast, the timing of it is depending on the duration of the way back home of the several believers.
The statement in this verse that the count until ten should be completed seems to be relevant only for the private form of fast (day 4 until day 10) related to the hadj.
Completing the count that is mentioned in verse 2185 relates to Ramadan, the communal period of abstinence, verse 2185 prescribes the duration of the full moon as a time-frame for the abstention and thus there should be a count until a total of three days for compensation of the missed days if necessary.
Verse 2203 gives the only quranic example of the the Arabic word -mawdoodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the hadj which lasts ten days in total.
Of course this does not mean that the word -mawdoodat- means only three.

A conclusion
Verse 2185 seems to be compelling as an indicator for the duration of the communal fast - the duration of a full moon - three days.
The other verses mentioned seem to give more support for the three days period of abstinence than for a period of abstinence of ten days.

I would be interesting to read Quran-based comments.

Salam,
Truthseeker171

ayman

Peace Truthseeker171,

Thank you for sharing your thoughtful analysis on Free-minds so that everyone can benefit and contribute.

The Quran prescribes a period of communal abstention of three days.

a support of the great effort initiated by Ayman to find the right timing of the period of abstinence.-
Some quranic arguments that support the duration of the period of abstinence of three days instead of a period of ten days

The period of abstention is related to the Arabic word -shahr-.
Verse 2185 states that the duration of a full moon is relevant for the length of the period of abstention.

... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -
The plural-form of the word days relating to the abstention mentioned in verse 2184 requires a number of more than two.
The duration of the full-moon illusion with at least 98% coverage is three days.
This seems to be a compelling quranic ruling with a clear unambiguous time-frame.
An abstention out of the time-frame of the duration of the full moon is not suggested here.
There seems not to be another verse that could put this aside in a compelling way.
Other verses give only circumstantial evidence, compared to the value and precision of verse 2185.

I think that you present a sound and certainly feasible argument that deserves full consideration. Another argument in support of your view is that Classical Arabic dictionaries say that "shahr" means "the moon when it is apparent and nearly full". So this would certainly include the moon 1 day before and 1 day after the actual full moon, which would be in line with your conclusion of 3 days.

Another possible argument supporting your theory is that Zakaria also abstained (from talking) for three nights

He said ?My Lord, make for me a sign.? He said ?Your sign is that you will not speak to the people for three nights consecutively.?
Verse 2189 indicates that there is no quranic support for the point of view that the abstention should last ten days, because of the absence of mentioning the period of abstinence explicitly in this verse.
This verse mentions the hilal-indicator as relevant for the communal event of the hadj and not for the communal event of the abstention during the shahr ramadan.
Regarding the perfection and completeness of the Quran the absence of mentioning the communal fast in this verse is rather compelling.
Verse 2183 gives very circumstantial evidence, but could be a further support for a period of abstention of three rather than ten days, since a fast of three days seems to be closer to the prescribed fast in the Torah of one total day.
Verse 2196 gives also circumstantial evidence, because it is related to the hadj and not to the regular period of abstention - this verse can be read both as a support for a ten and a three days period.
The three days are a communal fast of the poor probably during the full moon of the first three days of the hadj.
The seven other days are a private form of fast, the timing of it is depending on the duration of the way back home of the several believers.
The statement in this verse that the count until ten should be completed seems to be relevant only for the private form of fast (day 4 until day 10) related to the hadj.
Completing the count that is mentioned in verse 2185 relates to Ramadan, the communal period of abstinence, verse 2185 prescribes the duration of the full moon as a time-frame for the abstention and thus there should be a count until a total of three days for compensation of the missed days if necessary.
Verse 2203 gives the only quranic example of the the Arabic word -mawdoodat- mentioned in verse 2184 regarding the number of days of abstention, and refers to the number three as the prescribed duration of being present at the hadj which lasts ten days in total.
Of course this does not mean that the word -mawdoodat- means only three.
A conclusion
Verse 2185 seems to be compelling as an indicator for the duration of the communal fast - the duration of a full moon - three days.
The other verses mentioned seem to give more support for the three days period of abstinence than for a period of abstinence of ten days.
I would be interesting to read Quran-based comments.

Please allow me to raise a few possible issues with the 3 days understanding so that we make sure that we are on the right track

None of those passages you referred to (2183, 189, 196 or 203) provides the primary reason for a 10 day period of abstinence. The primary reason is in 2185 itself. In 2185 we hear very clearly that we should "complete the count". We know that "ma'doodat" means 3-10. What does completing the count of "3-10" mean? It seems clear that it means reaching 10. You have not explained how completing a count of ?3-10? can mean ?3 only?.
When you think about it, whether it is 3 or 10, the expression "whoever witnessed the full moon shall abstain it" shouldn't be taken as indicating a period but as providing a marker anyway. The actual abstinence is not in the ?full moon?. We actually do not abstain during the night at all when the moon is witnessed. The abstinence is from dawn to night (please note that according to the great reading ?night? begins at sunset).
Also, had it been known that the ?full moon? lasts for three nights and therefore the abstinence is for 3 days then the expression ?ayyam ma?doodat? (few days) in 2184 would be redundant. On top of that, the expression ?completing the count? would also be redundant besides being illogical as explained in point #1 above.
Another reason is in 594 where we are told ?abstain two consecutive full-moons?. If full-moon is taken as period of 3 days and not as a marker then the passage would be telling us to abstain for 3 days and then another 3 days later. Although this is possible, it seems more logical that the passage is telling us to abstain the period marked by the full-moons, in other words a full lunar cycle between two consecutive full-moons.

Peace,

Ayman

david_rs_aitken

Peace Truthseeker171,

I'd just like to add that the following passage seems to make total sense in light of a 10 day / 11 night abstention period

972-5, 891-3

Do you know what the night of measure is? The night of measure is better than 1000 full-moons. We send down the controllers and the spirit/revelation during it, with your lord's permission, concerning all matters. It is peaceful until the rising of the dawn.

By the dawn and the 10 nights and the even and the odd.

Your study really made me think; thank you for posting it.

Peace,

-David

truthseeker171

Salam David,
thank you for your reply.

Verses 89 1-3 are not explicitly related to the period of abstinence and thereby hardly could put aside the clear time-frame of the duration of the full moon mentioned in verse 2185.
For now I do not follow your argument that even and odd relate to the days and nights of the abstention period.
Both the fasting period of ten and three seem to have as many nights as days.
If there is a night of the fast as mentioned in verse 2187 then there should be also a daytime part as a follow up of the night.

A possible explanation of these verses can be that the number ten relates to the duration of the hadj and that the words even and odd relate to the practice of divination with arrows which probably was done during the hadj in the pre-quranic area - Ahmed Shabbir QXP.

Salam and greetings,
Truthseeker171

truthseeker171

Salam Ayman,
thank you for your reply.

Quotes from you are in blue color.

None of those passages you referred to (2183, 189, 196 or 203) provides the primary reason for a 10 day period of abstinence. The primary reason is in 2185 itself. In 2185 we hear very clearly that we should "complete the count". We know that "ma'doodat" means 3-10. What does completing the count of "3-10" mean? It seems clear that it means reaching 10. You have not explained how completing a count of ?3-10? can mean ?3 only?.

Verse 2185 prescribes to complete the count of the missed days of abstention - any count, if it is for instance until ten or until three is a count that can be completed.
Since verse 2185 seems to prescribe a period of abstention of the duration of the full moon which lasts three days, the count that has to be completed is then three days.
At the other side we can not say in general that the Quran prescribes that a count has to be until ten, the number three is also within the ma'doodat-range.

When you think about it, whether it is 3 or 10, the expression "whoever witnessed the full moon shall abstain it" shouldn't be taken as indicating a period but as providing a marker anyway. The actual abstinence is not in the ?full moon?. We actually do not abstain during the night at all when the moon is witnessed. The abstinence is from dawn to night (please note that according to the great reading ?night? begins at sunset).

Verse 2187 gives us detailed information about the technique of abstention.
The night is called in this verse the night of the fast -lailat ul siaum-, so according to the Quran the whole day - the full 24 hours - is named the fast, but the verse gives a detailed description of the start and ending of the actual act of fasting.
In analogy the beginning and ending of the period of abstention itself is also to be found in an unambiguous way.
Since no other verse than verse 2185 gives us the timing of the beginning and ending of the period of abstention, we probably better can accept the detailed description as given in verse 2185 - the duration of the full moon itself - as beginning and ending of the period of abstinence.
If one sees the full moon as a marker of just the beginning of the fast than it would be required that there would be also a marker of the ending of the fast - this is not described in the Quran in an unambiguous way in another way than the ending of the period of the full moon itself.

Also, had it been known that the ?full moon? lasts for three nights and therefore the abstinence is for 3 days then the expression ?ayyam ma?doodat? (few days) in 2184 would be redundant. On top of that, the expression ?completing the count? would also be redundant besides being illogical as explained in point #1 above.

In verses 2183, 2184 and 2185 we can see a sequence
Verse 2183 seem to refer to the fasting period of the Jewish faith - one total day.
Verse 2184 tells the muslims the quranic form of fasting lasts a counted number of days.
Verse 2185 gives us the details, the number of days is related to the duration of the full moon.
This seems to be a logical sequence of steps from referring to the Jewish way of fasting to the fasting as prescribed by the Quran.

The expression -completing the count- seems to be very relevant in stating that the missed days of the period of fasting should be compensated, be it until ten or three days.
There seems nothing to be illogical about a count until three - since any count is a count - the number three is within the range of -ma'doodat-.

Another reason is in 594 where we are told ?abstain two consecutive full-moons?. If full-moon is taken as period of 3 days and not as a marker then the passage would be telling us to abstain for 3 days and then another 3 days later. Although this is possible, it seems more logical that the passage is telling us to abstain the period marked by the full-moons, in other words a full lunar cycle between two consecutive full-moons.

Here I agree with you, also the four restricted full moons -shahr haram- seem to be a period inclusive the days between the full moons, probably a period of 92 days in total, from the first day of the first full moon until the last (third) day of the forth full moon.
This does not take away the clear quranic command to fast the full moon of the scorching heat itself, the language seems to be clear and does not suggest to regard the full moon just as a marker of the beginning of the fast.

A conclusion
The complete and perfect Quran can provide us with unambiguous rulings.
If verse 2185 tells the believers to abstain the shahr ramadan and not to see this full moon as a marker of the beginning of the period of abstention, since there is not given an explicit marker of the ending of the period of abstention, except the full moon and its ending itself.
Solely the words -completing the count- in the same verse seem to be too ambiguous to be able to provide for knowledge of the number of days that have to be abstained, if we read them in combination with the actual duration of a full moon period than these words become unambiguous.

Salam and greetings,
Truthseeker171

david_rs_aitken

Peace Truthseeker,

It seems that when you count full-moons, they're markers.

936 The count of full-moons at the god is 12.

So, when you fast, is the full-moon not the marker for the beginning? Then the crescent (10 days later) will provide the full time period.

2189 They ask you about crescent moons. Say, "They are a timing for the people and the hajj/feast."

truthseeker171

Salam David.

It depends on the perspective how we read the relevant verses.

Verse 936 informs the believers that there are twelve counted full moons within a year and that four of them are restricted.
The days between the full moons are included in being part of the year or the restricted full moons.
So I agree with you that within this context the full moon is serving as a counting-device - as a marker.

But concerning the communal days of abstention the -shahr ramadan- the full moon itself is both the marker of the beginning and the ending of the communal fast, since the Quran does not provide for another way of timing the communal fast.
Verse 2189 is one of the verses that support this assumption.
This verse informs the believers that the -hilal- is a timing-device for the people and the hadj.
The -hilal- has a general function as a timing-device for personal affairs and the -hilal- is a timing-device for the hadj - one of the two communal Islamic events.
The Quran is complete and fully detailed.
Interesting is the absence here of mentioning the other communal Islamic event the communal abstention, so we can conclude that the -hilal- is not relevant for the duration of the period of abstention.
This verse seems to be supportive of another duration of the period of abstinence than ten days.

2185 - ... those of you who witness this full moon shall fast therein ... -

This verse gives an unambiguous time-frame.
The Quran has no shortage of words, when we would have to see the full moon just as a marker of the beginning of the period of abstinence then probably the use of the words would be different. The Quran contains words like beginning and ending, but they are not used within this context - this might only be because the full moon is the marker of both the beginning and ending of the period of abstention.

Salam and greetings,
Truthseeker

unknownuser

Peace,

Verses 89 1-3 are not explicitly related to the period of abstinence and thereby hardly could put aside the clear time-frame of the duration of the full moon mentioned in verse 2185.
For now I do not follow your argument that even and odd relate to the days and nights of the abstention period.
Both the fasting period of ten and three seem to have as many nights as days.
If there is a night of the fast as mentioned in verse 2187 then there should be also a daytime part as a follow up of the night.

A possible explanation of these verses can be that the number ten relates to the duration of the hadj and that the words even and odd relate to the practice of divination with arrows which probably was done during the hadj in the pre-quranic area - Ahmed Shabbir QXP.

892 and night ten ---> 8418 and the moon when it evened/full
893 and the even and the odd

Believe 10th night 892 always equates with the full moon 8418 which alternates 30 and 29.
Example last lunar cycle and next?
http//www.almanac.com/moon/calendar/IL/Warrenville/2010-04

http//i43.tinypic.com/34q7joh.jpg
I'll need to have a better look into this whole timing issue, time permitting.

herbman

None of those passages you referred to (2183, 189, 196 or 203) provides the primary reason for a 10 day period of abstinence. The primary reason is in 2185 itself. In 2185 we hear very clearly that we should "complete the count". We know that "ma'doodat" means 3-10. What does completing the count of "3-10" mean? It seems clear that it means reaching 10. You have not explained how completing a count of ?3-10? can mean ?3 only?.

Ayman

Peace Ayman,

When I read verse 2185 I understand to "complete the count" for those who were ill or on travel, and God make it simple for these people.

2183

O ye who believe! fasting is prescribed to you as it was prescribed to those before you that ye may (learn) self-restraint.

2184

Fasting) for a fixed number of days; but if any of you is ill or on a journey, the prescribed number (should be made up) from days later. For those who can do it (with hardship) is a ransom, the feeding of one that is indigent. But he that will give more of his own free-willit is better for him, and it is better for you that ye fast, if ye only knew.

2185

Shahar Ramadan in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that SHAHR should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

Peace

ayman

Peace Herbman,

When I read verse 2185 I understand to "complete the count" for those who were ill or on travel, and God make it simple for these people.
...

2185

Shahar Ramadan in which was sent down the Qur'an as a guide to mankind also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So everyone of you who is present (at his home) during that SHAHR should spent it in fasting, but if anyone is ill, or on a journey, the prescribed period (should be made up) by days later. Allah intends every facility for you He does not want to put you to difficulties. (He wants you) to complete the prescribed period, and to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.

The instruction to complete the count is tied to the instruction to glorify the god (in red). The understanding that you are proposing would make glorifying the god only for those who are ill or traveling. I think this is probably why the commentators and the translator that you quoted didn't disagree about my understanding despite the issues that it creates for the validity of the traditional so-called Ramadan. Also, this is in addition to the fact that the complete and sufficient information about making up the missed days is given by the clause (so a count of later days) and there is no need for further redundant elaboration.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman

mohamad_itani

it is a whole month ,the lunar cycle,clear to be counted days of 28 give or take for who ever does not see the new moon phase.
all is clear no science for us but it is good to think.give in to what is simple ,i know the blame goes on who ever tried to give us false interpretaions so that now we need to really think hard to find out.
it is all laid simple dont make it hard on your self.it is all clear.

truthseeker171

it is a whole month ,the lunar cycle,clear to be counted days of 28 give or take for who ever does not see the new moon phase.
all is clear no science for us but it is good to think.give in to what is simple ,i know the blame goes on who ever tried to give us false interpretaions so that now we need to really think hard to find out.
it is all laid simple dont make it hard on your self.it is all clear.

Salaam Mohamad

I advice you to read verse 2185 very well.
The literal wording ... whoever witnesses among you the -shahr- (ramadan)- then he should fast it...
This means that the person who witnesses the full moon of -ramadan-, should fast this period of the full moon - 3 days.
The traditional interpretation of this verse would ask the believers to do something impossible.
Namely to witness a whole mooncycle of 29 or 30 days and go back into time and fast the month.
Imagine someone who dies halfway the mooncycle - then that person did not witness the mooncycle.

The full moon of the scorching heat, -shahr ramadan- can be witnessed and one can fast (during) it.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace,

I advice you to read verse 2185 very well.
The literal wording ... whoever witnesses among you the -shahr- (ramadan)- then he should fast it...
This means that the person who witnesses the full moon of -ramadan-, should fast this period of the full moon - 3 days.
The traditional interpretation of this verse would ask the believers to do something impossible.
Namely to witness a whole mooncycle of 29 or 30 days and go back into time and fast the month.
Imagine someone who dies halfway the mooncycle - then that person did not witness the mooncycle.

The full moon of the scorching heat, -shahr ramadan- can be witnessed and one can fast (during) it.

There are different types of witnesses/witnessing which not all are visual?
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/witness

Example; evidence put forth/shahida by a person/shhidun sympathetic for an accused.

1226-27
washahida shhidun from her family --
"If is his shirt torn from the front then she has spoken the truth, and he from the liars...
And if is his shirt torn from the back so she has lied and he from the truthful."

truthseeker171

There are different types of witnesses/witnessing which not all are visual?
http//www.thefreedictionary.com/witness

Example; evidence put forth/shahida by a person/shhidun sympathetic for an accused.

1226-27
washahida shhidun from her family --
"If is his shirt torn from the front then she has spoken the truth, and he from the liars...
And if is his shirt torn from the back so she has lied and he from the truthful."

Salaam

It is correct that there are several meanings of the wording -witnessing-.
That seems not to have any influence on the fact that it would be very illogical that one would have to witness (in several meanings of the word) a whole lunar-cycle and go back into time and start to fast the witnessed lunar-cycle.
One can only witness a whole month - when one has actually witnessed the whole month.

One can witness a full moon by seeing it or acknowledging it.
Also during clouded days one can witness the full moon by acknowledging that it is the period of the full moon - based on calculations - mooncalendars.
When one witnesses (in several meanings of the word) a full moon - one can fast the duration of it.

Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Peace,

one can acknowledge or avow to fast the month and do so

that is simple and logical while to fast a full moon which lasts a few minutes is illogical
that is also full of contradictions the blind, full moons viewed at night

excuse the iPhone reply and any typos

truthseeker171

one can acknowledge or avow to fast the month and do so

that is simple and logical while to fast a full moon which lasts a few minutes is illogical
that is also full of contradictions the blind, full moons viewed at night

Salaam

Several meanings of -shahida- shiin-ha-dal = told/gave information, to witness/see, to be present, give evidence/testimony, bear witness.

You are right in saying that one can acknowledge the starting of a new month and fast in it.
But the question is, if that is compatible with the literal wording of verse 2185.
The moment that one actually could witness/acknowledge concerning this matter is the start of the month, not the whole lunar-cycle at once.
If witnessing the start of a month would be indicated in the verse, then the -hilal- might have been mentioned.
But the -hilal- was an indicator for the -hajj- and not for the fasting period - verse 2189.
This gives koranic evidence that the -shahr- as the indicator for the fasting-period has nothing to do with the -hilal- and thereby the -shahr- of verse 2185 seems not to have anything in common with the start of the lunar-cycle (one of the two -hilal-) or the whole lunar-cycle.

The koranic wording of verse 2185 relates to witnessing the -shahr- itself, not to only the beginning of it.
One can witness or acknowlegde via a calendar that the full moon of ramadan is there and fast the period of it.

The moon is actually never full from earth's perspective.
If the line between sun-earth-moon would be absolutely straight then there would be a moon-eclipse.
According to Lane's dictionary -shahr- means amongst others the near full moon.
A full moon of 98% would suffice to see the moon as the -shahr-.
The period that the moon can be seen as a full moon of at least 98% - lasts three days.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

The koranic wording of verse 2185 relates to witnessing the -shahr- itself, not to only the beginning of it.
One can witness or acknowlegde via a calendar that the full moon of ramadan is there and fast the period of it.

Salaam and right,

2185
so who shahida (avows, acknowledges or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast in it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

truthseeker171

Salaam and right,

2185
so who shahida (avows, acknowledges or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast in it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

Your translation -so he should fast in it- seems not to be correct.
-he should fast it-, seems to be more appropiate.
So one can fast the full moon that one sees/witnesses, one can fast it when seen/witnessed.
One can not witness a whole month and then fast it.

I advice you to read verse 2189 - the absence of the mentioning of the period of abstention as related to the -hilal- is remarkable.
The communal event of the hajj is mentioned, not the other communal event of the collective fast.

I advice you to do research on the koranic reference of the word ma'doodat (verse 2184) - it seems to mean 3 (days) or a few - probably far from meaning 29/30.

Salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.

unknownuser

Your translation -so he should fast in it- seems not to be correct.
-he should fast it-, seems to be more appropiate.
So one can fast the full moon that one sees/witnesses, one can fast it when seen/witnessed.

How can one fast the full moon which happen during the night, fasting is during a day?

One can not witness a whole month and then fast it.

It is possible; you keep repeating the visual only definition of shahida.
Who first makes the intent to fast the period then they should fast it.

2185
so who shahida (avows or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

I advice you to read verse 2189 - the absence of the mentioning of the period of abstention as related to the -hilal- is remarkable.
The communal event of the hajj is mentioned, not the other communal event of the collective fast.

I advice you to do research on the koranic reference of the word ma'doodat (verse 2184) - it seems to mean 3 (days) or a few - probably far from meaning 29/30.

Lets stay with 2185 -- Explain how one is to fast al-shahra (&#1614 and when to start/stop and how many days exactly?

truthseeker171

How can one fast the full moon which happen during the night, fasting is during a day?

It is possible; you keep repeating the visual only definition of shahida.
Who first makes the intent to fast the period then they should fast it.

2185
so who shahida (avows or intends to fast) from you al-shahra (&#1614
so he should fast it/falyasum'hu (i.e. the period/cycle).

Lets stay with 2185 -- Explain how one is to fast al-shahra (&#1614 and when to start/stop and how many days exactly?

The period of full moon with a coverage of 98% lasts about three days - so if one sees/witnesses the full moon at day- or night-time then their is enough time to fast three days - while the moon being witnessed as full.

Your translation of -shahida- as avowing or intend to fast seems not to be accurate.
-shahida- means rather to witness/see/to be present.
One can not witness or see or be present (at) a whole lunar-cycle at once.
-shahida el shahr- in verse 2185 seems to mean witnessing, seeing or being present (at) the full moon.
Also because

Verse 2184 - the wording -ma'dootan-, according to koranic reference meaning 3 (days) or a few - far less than 29/30.
Verse 2198 - the -hilal- is relevant for the hajj and not for the other communal event - the communal abstention.

I ask you to do your own research on verses 2184 and 2198 - may be you can give another insight.

The timing of fasting the full moon of ramadan.
If the full moon is witnessed/seen before the koranic night - then one has the night to eat and drink as preparation for the fast that begins just before -fadjr-.
If the full moon is witnessed during the night, the fast does not start next daytime, then the next night is the night of the preparation of the fast.
According to verse 2184 the plural of more than two regarding the number of days - requires a fasting of three days at least. The wording ma'dootan refers to possibly three days. The full moon of verse 2185 refers to three days.

One can find out via a mooncalendar what is the day of the most full moon and see that the day before and after have at least 98% coverage.
That is enough to witness the moon as full - it is a basic, efficient tool - not high-tech.

If you want to read the word -shahr ramadan- as a whole lunar-cycle then I ask you
1 - to proof that the word -ma'doodat- can mean 29/30.
2 - to explain that the -hilal- is relevant for the start of -shahr- while knowing that verse 2189 states that the -hilal- is a personal timing divice for the people and was relevant for the communal event of the hajj, not for the other communal event - the communal fasting.

salaam,
Truthseeker

Disclaimer the study of the Koran is work in progress, every information in any posting on this forum should be controlled by the believers themselves in the best way - verse 1736.