hadiths of Salat?
-
but how can we say abu huraira couldn't remember things correctly? ???
Don't be silly, according to a hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurairah, Abu Hurairah went to the Holy Prophet? and asked him for a cure for his short term memory loss (all that ganja, tsk tsk). The Holy Prophet? then uttered a magic spell on him then slapped him with a towel and since then, Abu Hurairah's memory has been impeccable.
-
Don't be silly, according to a hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurairah, Abu Hurairah went to the Holy Prophet? and asked him for a cure for his short term memory loss (all that ganja, tsk tsk). The Holy Prophet? then uttered a magic spell on him then slapped him with a towel and since then, Abu Hurairah's memory has been impeccable.
that proves even further that his memory was alright after that cure, elhamdulillah!!
-
but how can we say abu huraira couldn't remember things correctly? ???
He had trouble with numbers, 60, 70, 90, 99, 101, his 'stories' (HADITH) changed each time he told them. Really he was nothing more than a story teller and from some i've read the prophet was a tad fed up with him too. ;D
-
Don't be silly, according to a hadeeth narrated by Abu Hurairah, Abu Hurairah went to the Holy Prophet? and asked him for a cure for his short term memory loss (all that ganja, tsk tsk). The Holy Prophet? then uttered a magic spell on him then slapped him with a towel and since then, Abu Hurairah's memory has been impeccable.
now what was I going to say......................
ah yes
magic spells??
going to slap myself with a towel and utter some mumbo jumbo, see if that helps. brb
-
Volume 1, Book 3, Number 119
Narrated Abu Huraira
I said to Allah's Apostle "I hear many narrations (Hadiths) from you but I forget them." Allah's Apostle said, "Spread your Rida' (garment)." I did accordingly and then he moved his hands as if filling them with something (and emptied them in my Rida' and then said, "Take and wrap this sheet over your body." I did it and after that I never forgot any thing.
Come on, Abu Huraira himself, with his blessed memory is telling you that he went to the prophet who then gave him an impeccable memory!
-
-
Come on, Abu Huraira himself, with his blessed memory is telling you that he went to the prophet who then gave him an impeccable memory!
The prophet SAW cured him for a reason, and that reason is obvious now!
-
Dear Shumali
You seem to be getting your wires crossed. Bukhari did not teach the majority of Muslims how to pray. The Prophet PBUH taught the Muslims how to pray in line with the Quran (stand, bow, prostrate). This chain of teaching has been handed down generation after generation after generation. The Prophet PBUH, the Sahaaba, the Tabi'een, Imaam Abu Hanifa, Imaam Shafii, Imaam Malik, Imaam Ahmad, Imaam Jafer Al Sadiq, Imaam Hasan, Imaam Hussein and so forth, all came before Bukhari and were well versed in Arabic and Quran than either you or me and had no problems with the Quran and Teachings of the Prophet PBUH! So where the hell are you getting your claims of Bukari-ism from? How did all the above pray before Bukhari came along and how do you prove it?
Most, if not all the PM's believe that the Prophet PBUH only delivered the message and then walked away. You guys believe that he did not teach anything therefore there is nothing to follow from his example as it is all in the Quran. Or am I wrong in my analogy?
You will no doubt quote
320 Thus, if they argue with thee, say, "I have surrendered my whole being unto God, and all who follow me!" - and ask those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime, as well as all unlettered people, "Have you surrendered yourselves unto Him?" And if they surrender themselves unto Him, they are on the right path; but if they turn away - behold, thy duty is no more than to deliver the message for God sees all that is in His creatures.
And I will in turn quote
567 O APOSTLE! Announce all that has been bestowed from on high upon thee by thy Sustainer for unless thou doest it fully, thou wilt not have delivered His message . And God will protect thee from men behold, God does not guide people who refuse to acknowledge the truth.
465 But nay, by thy Sustainer! They do not believe unless they make thee a judge of all on which they disagree among themselves, and then find in their hearts no bar to an acceptance of thy decision and give themselves up in utter self-surrender.
4105 BEHOLD, We have bestowed upon thee from on high this divine writ, setting forth the truth, so that thou may judge between people in accordance with what God has taught thee. Hence, do not contend with those who are false to their trust,
542 those who eagerly listen to any falsehood, greedily swallowing all that is evil! Hence, if they come to thee , thou mayest either judge between them or leave them alone for, if thou leave them alone, they cannot harm thee in any way. But if thou dost judge, judge between them with equity verily, God knows those who act equitably.
548 And unto thee have We vouchsafed this divine writ, setting forth the truth, confirming the truth of whatever there still remains of earlier revelations and determining what is true therein. judge, then, between the followers of earlier revelation in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, and do not follow their errant views, forsaking the truth that has come unto thee. Unto every one of you have We appointed a law and way of life. And if God had so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community but in order to test you by means of what He has vouchsafed unto, you. Vie, then, with one another in doing good works! Unto God you all must return; and then He will make you truly understand all that on which you were wont to differ.
On one hand Allah SWT is saying that the Prophet PBUH's job is to only deliver the Quran and on the other hand Allah SWT is saying to the Prophet PBUH to judge between the people! Which one of the 2 stances would you take. Was it a delivery only, or was it delivery and judgement? Is this clear and easy to understand in your eyes?
Anyway, just to please your request, you can read The Book of The Characteristics of Prayer in Bukhari in order to verify if it contradicts the Quran or not.
Here, one more point needs clarification with regards to the authenticity of hadith. You and your buddies seem to believe that a Hadith is only authentic if it is related in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim which you obviously disregard in totallity even if it was authentic. No problem.
This is a misconception. The authenticity of the Hadith is based on its chain of narrators, irrespective of whether it appears in any one of the Sihah Sitta (the famous six authentic compilations of Hadith) or in any other compilation besides these. Please bear this in mind.
Moving onto your approach, I posted the following in another post and will be grateful if you can take a stab at it and confirm your position
Dear Ayisha
Ok. Let's put the Hadith to the side (again) and clarify your position.
Please be kind enough to tell us what Islam and the perfected religion means to you
53 ...................This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor unto you, and have chosen for you as religion AL- Islam. Whoso is forced by hunger, not by will, to sin (for him) lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. -
Do you accept the concept of Salaah?
Do you accept the concept of Pilgrimage?
Do you accept the concept of Zakat?
And if so, please be kind enough to confirm how do you or would you perform any of these duties (with references please).
If the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salah, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from God) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that.
5156 I created the jinn and humankind only that they might worship Me.
Furthermore, do you believe or accept that the Prophet PBUH performed Salaat and how did he do it if your answer is in the affirmative? Did he Stand, Bow and Prostrate and on what basis do you get your answer? Or do you believe the meaning of Salaat to be metaphorical and not a physical action?
How many wives did the Prophet PBUH have and did he have any children? (ok, this may not be relevant for you, so you may not answer if you so wish).
Do you believe or accept in the Prophet PBUH's status as an example, a teacher and explainer of the Quran?
What is the call for prayer and where do we find it?
The Quran as it is, is not compiled in the same order as it was revealed. Why is this so? Also how do you know, which ayats were revealed when and for what reason? And are there any ayats in the Quran that are specific for certain events or people that occured before our time? i.e. Badr. What was all this about and what happened?
Additionally, in one of your previous posts you stated that you pray as you were traditionally taught but without the Tashahud or something along these lines. Why would you accept the prayer aspect from the source of Hadiths even though you claim to be a firm Hadith Rejector? Please tell me and show me where you learned the concept of prayer? To accept one and reject the other source on the basis of reliability defies reason. You are therefore forced to either seek direction from the Hadith indirectly or to contradict the claim that the Quran is 'self sufficient and self explanatory' by adding additional clauses or to change the meanings of the worships altogether.
To say that Allah promised to protect only Qur'an but not Islam is being as ridiculous as one can get. Let's ignore the obvious question regarding the point of this Heavenly act. The question is if Islam has been corrupted for over 1200 years because of Hadith following and its true teachings have been lost, how can anyone claim to be its follower? Moreover, Qur'an says "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost" 385. How are we to follow the religion acceptable to Allah (Islam) if it was not to be protected and has been corrupted from the offset thus nullifying the claim?
If we follow the religion of our forefather Abraham, then how can Abrahams way be preserved considering he came for a limited period, for his nation only? Whereas the Prophet PBUH was sent for all mankind at a later date and until the Last Day not be preserved. According to you, the Prophet PBUH'S way has been corrupted but Abrahams way has been preserved? How do you prove or trace anything about Abraham and his way without any historical records or chain of narration at best?
Did not Allah SWT decide to protect the Quran because previous scriptures and calls to God were corrupted by man which would also apply to the period of Abraham?
Finally, the million dollar question that you and your buddies need to answer is why did no one for over 1300 years question the teachings of the Prophet PBUH? No body, in his right mind, could or did question this practice.
It was not that some genius had found flaws in the hadith study that had eluded the entire ummah for thirteen centuries now was it? or maybe it was and the following 'knights in shining armour' arose to lead you out of the darkness and into the light - Egypt (Taha Hussein), India (Abdullah Chakralawi and Ghulam Ahmed Pervaiz), and Turkey (Zia Gogelup).
Peace
-
Give it up dude, this guy is long dead and a dead man cannot judge a thing. Nor can a dead man testify in any court proceedings.
In reality there is no concievable way to verify that "for over 1300 years nobody questioned the teachings of the Prrophet PBUH" given that you only exist in the here and now, you have not been alive prior. This means that your subjective reality is defined purely by the mental conditioning imposed on you by your parents and those around you.
You yourself do not know for sure what is directly behind you, or in the other room, or outside your door in the last 10 seconds let alone what happened over the last 1300 years. If a single hadeeth can be fabricated then every damn hadeeth can be fabricated, the quran explicitly states that it is protected by an omnipotent force and it provides its own means of proving its consistency; the method proposed by the quran works very well and that is what makes it scientific, it is a concrete and testable method. No such protection is offered by the all-knowing for ridiculous hearsay. In my experience, the quran is the sole standing rock of firmness floating in a constantly changing sea of bullshit.
Ironically, the very thing that provides the most credence to the quran's claim of pure protection and infallibility is the fact that despite all the attempts at distortion, nobody has ever changed its very words and nobody ever can. All these hadeeths exist for a reason, the agents of shaitan seek to distort and distract from that which is true. They cannot change the truth itself and amongst this truth is the quran. So they seek instead to direct those gullible souls into hell by turning them to words other than those of our eternal originator.
If we are to go by the hadeethist's claim, then why has nobody even managed to challenge the foundations of Judaism and Christianity despite the fact that these have lasted millenia longer than "Islam" and the followers of the former are bestowed with power no "Muslim" will ever taste and the latter always have been greater in number than "Muslims"?
The truth is that people are inherently stupid, they do not challenge majority belief and it is not for them to do so. If life is a chessboard then the majority of people are pawns.
I have a friend who has no idea of what is contained in the quran. However I can see clearly that he is a "muslim" (one who submits to the will of our lord), many a time we have talked and he has said something only for me to say "that is found in the quran", his response is that truth is self-evident, that the creator guides whom he wills and leads those he wills astray.
It disgusts me that some people cling desperately onto things that will never benefit them in the hereafter and attack those who wish to find their way to God for themselves, seeking to distract them from a right way towards a path of inherent uncertainty, conjecture and evil.
Allah never made a promise to protect a religion made by men, what he has protected is his very SYSTEM/deen and there is no changing that. The laws of physics (then chemistry, then biology, then neurology, then logic) cannot be changed.
-
Dear Shumali
You seem to be getting your wires crossed. Bukhari did not teach the majority of Muslims how to pray. The Prophet PBUH taught the Muslims how to pray in line with the Quran (stand, bow, prostrate). This chain of teaching has been handed down generation after generation after generation. The Prophet PBUH, the Sahaaba, the Tabi'een, Imaam Abu Hanifa, Imaam Shafii, Imaam Malik, Imaam Ahmad, Imaam Jafer Al Sadiq, Imaam Hasan, Imaam Hussein and so forth, all came before Bukhari and were well versed in Arabic and Quran than either you or me and had no problems with the Quran and Teachings of the Prophet PBUH! So where the hell are you getting your claims of Bukari-ism from? How did all the above pray before Bukhari came along and how do you prove it?
Um, Shumali asked a simple question. He wanted you and/or thereformer to show us some hadiths.
Shumali asked "Which Hadiths tell how to pray salat? I need exact references from Hadiths."
Can't you just give us that?
-
Give it up dude, this guy is long dead and a dead man cannot judge a thing. Nor can a dead man testify in any court proceedings.
In reality there is no concievable way to verify that "for over 1300 years nobody questioned the teachings of the Prrophet PBUH" given that you only exist in the here and now, you have not been alive prior. This means that your subjective reality is defined purely by the mental conditioning imposed on you by your parents and those around you.
You yourself do not know for sure what is directly behind you, or in the other room, or outside your door, let alone what happened over the last 1300 years. If a single hadeeth can be fabricated then every damn hadeeth can be fabricated, the quran explicitly states that it is protected by an omnipotent force and it provides its own means of proving its consistency; the method proposed by the quran works very well and that is what makes it scientific, it is a concrete and testable method. No such protection is offered by the all-knowing for ridiculous hearsay. In my experience, the quran is the sole standing rock of firmness floating in a constantly changing sea of bullshit.
and here you stumble yes
let me tell you one thing; we don't see hadith and quran two different entities, when god said he pretects quran that means he protects quran and whatever explains the quran obviously, otherwise saving quran without saving its meaning is meaningless! don't you think my friend?
-
and here you stumble yes
let me tell you one thing; we don't see hadith and quran two different entities, when god said he pretects quran that means he protects quran and whatever explains the quran obviously, otherwise saving quran without saving its meaning is meaningless! don't you think my friend?
The explanation has never been lost. Hadeeth do not explain quran, quran explains quran. If you do not see hadeeth and quran as two different entities then you are clearly blind, there is no changing that.
I'll tell you one thing good sir, playing devil's advocate for too long will end up in you being devil's advocate in the same way that pretending to be a smoker will result in an inevitable addiction to smoking.
Also
Finally, the million dollar question that you and your buddies need to answer is why did no one for over 1300 years question the teachings of the Prophet PBUH? No body, in his right mind, could or did question this practice.
Tough shit, it's getting questioned now. Better late than never.
-
Dear Andya Primanda
English may not be your first language, but please read and digest what I said in my previous post
Anyway, just to please your request, you can read The Book of The Characteristics of Prayer in Bukhari.
Surely, one who has the capability of posting on the web and reading books can find this Chapter in the Bukhari Hadith and read for themselves.
And moving onto OPF.
You seem to be in a quagmire. Not only do we accept the Quran in it's totality, but we also accept the Prophet PBUH and his teachings in totality. Whereas you only accept the Quran in it's totality but not the Prophet PBUH or his teachings. This is the fundamental difference between us.
And this is where you become stuck because you cannot perform the task you are created to perform. Worship.I will ask you a very simple question which no doubt every other 'traditionalist' has been asking your kind for over a century and you still cannot answer
Where in the Quran does it show you how to pray despite the reality that Salaat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran? Period.
In each of these verses, one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of the verses talk about the details of prayer, such as how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, and other such matters but never mentioning or showing how it is to be done?
If you think that prayer is a metaphorical phrase, then there is nothing more to discuss on this topic with you.
Peace
-
The explanation has never been lost. Hadeeth do not explain quran, quran explains quran. If you do not see hadeeth and quran as two different entities then you are clearly blind, there is no changing that.
I'll tell you one thing good sir, playing devil's advocate for too long will end up in you being devil's advocate in the same way that pretending to be a smoker will result in an inevitable addiction to smoking.
Also
Tough shit, it's getting questioned now. Better late than never.
but first we should agree on who the "devil" is? only then we will be able to see who the devil's advocate is, good friend
-
You seem to be in a quagmire. Not only do we accept the Quran in it's totality, but we also accept the Prophet PBUH and his teachings in totality. Whereas you only accept the Quran in it's totality but not the Prophet PBUH or his teachings. This is the fundamental difference between us.
And this is where you become stuck because you cannot perform the task you are created to perform. Worship.I will ask you a very simple question which no doubt every other 'traditionalist' has been asking your kind for over a century and you still cannot answer
Where in the Quran does it show you how to pray despite the reality that Salaat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran? Period.
Salam brother. Are getting mixed up with 'worship', 'salat' and 'prayer'?
There are numerous hadith relating to prayer but only 4 relating to 'salat' which I found very interesting
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 368
Narrated 'Abdur-Rahman bin Abi LailaKa'b bin 'Ujra met me and said, "Shall I give you a present? Once the Prophet came to us and we said, 'O Allah's Apostle ! We know how to greet you; but how to send 'Salat' upon you? He said, 'Say Allahumma Salli ala Muhammadin wa 'ala Ali Muhammadin, kama sal-laita 'ala all Ibrahima innaka Hamidun Majid. Allahumma barik 'ala Muhammadin wa 'ala all Muhammadin, kama barakta 'ala all Ibrahima, innaka Hamidun Majid."
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 369
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-KhudriWe said, "O Allah's Apostle This is (i.e. we know) the greeting to you; will you tell us how to send Salat on you?" He said, "Say 'Allahumma Salli 'ala Muhammadin 'abdika wa rasulika kama sal-laita 'ala Ibrahima wa barik 'ala Muhammadin wa all Muhammadin kama barakta 'ala Ibrahima wa Ali Ibrahim."
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 370
Narrated Ibn Abi AufaWhenever somebody brought alms to the Prophet the used to say, "Allahumma Salli 'Alaihi (O Allah! Send Your Salat (Grace and Honor) on him)." Once when my father brought his alms to him, he said, "O Allah! Send Your Salat (Grace and Honor) on the family of Abi Aufa."
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 371
Narrated Abu Humaid As-SaidiThe people said, "O Allah's Apostle ! How may we send Salat on you?" He said, "Say Allahumma Salli 'ala- Muhammadin wa azwajihi wa dhurriyyatihi kama sal-laita 'ala ali Ibrahim; wa barik 'ala Muhammadin wa azwajihi wa dhurriyyatihi kamabarakta 'ala ali Ibrahim innaka hamidun majid."
can you explain why they are praying to the prophet, if salat means prayer? or why they are worshipping the prophet?
-
Dear Andya Primanda
English may not be your first language, but please read and digest what I said in my previous post
Anyway, just to please your request, you can read The Book of The Characteristics of Prayer in Bukhari.
Surely, one who has the capability of posting on the web and reading books can find this Chapter in the Bukhari Hadith and read for themselves.
And moving onto OPF.
You seem to be in a quagmire. Not only do we accept the Quran in it's totality, but we also accept the Prophet PBUH and his teachings in totality. Whereas you only accept the Quran in it's totality but not the Prophet PBUH or his teachings. This is the fundamental difference between us.
And this is where you become stuck because you cannot perform the task you are created to perform. Worship.I will ask you a very simple question which no doubt every other 'traditionalist' has been asking your kind for over a century and you still cannot answer
Where in the Quran does it show you how to pray despite the reality that Salaat has been referred to explicitly and strongly more than 700 times in the Quran? Period.
In each of these verses, one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of the verses talk about the details of prayer, such as how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, and other such matters but never mentioning or showing how it is to be done?
If you think that prayer is a metaphorical phrase, then there is nothing more to discuss on this topic with you.
Peace
I don't think I have been brought up to perform the task of "worship". I did not grow up as a child and start standing, bowing or prostrating towards a stone cube constructed by a bunch of Arabs I had never seen or heard of. However I did grow up submitting to the will of my creator, doing exactly as his intentions. The individual cells of my body all submit to the will of my creator and I am powerless to stop them.
You do not accept the "prophet PBUH or his teachings". In reality, you accept that which has been ascribed to him by the likes of Bukhari et al and you know this. Given that the veracity of these compilations have no firm backing, they only stand on conjecture which our quran warns against, the question of following them alongside quran is out of the picture before it can even be asked.
Everything in the universe submits to the will of our creator, whether they like it or not. Of those who like it, they are promised a good reward. Of those who wish to disobey, they are in complete loss.
Your questions are unanswerable. Don't think this is because you have any upper hand of any sort. The reason they are unanswerable is that they are paradoxical. You are assuming 2+2=5, I am assuming 2+2=4 and then you are saying "prove (2+2)*2=10 if you believe 2+2=4. Which of course is a ridiculous assertion. You cannot find any "salat prayer" in the quran because evidently the quran does not ask for us to bounce up and down on the ground five times a day. Tell me, salat is surely something that is meant to purify the soul and bring it closer to our creator, the all-knowing, the all-pervading. And it is assumed that your hadeethist leaders are the foremost in upholding this "salat". So why is there no "Islamic state"? Surely our creator, the all powerful who has constructed this incredibly intricate reality we live in without a breath can prescribe a salat that bestows clarity and purity on those who uphold such a method. Yet the majority of muslims are far astray and there is much discord.
Do you think that when the earth spins in its orbit every day, it asks the sun for guidance? And the sun then brings it a chain of narrations stretching from Pluto to Mars to tell the Earth that the speed of light is perhaps 3x10^8m/s or in Saturn's opinion, it is actually 2.5x10^8m/s? Then when the earth decides that it knows the damn speed of light for itself, does the sun then tell the Earth "you know nothing, go ask a wise islamic scholar"? No, they "ask" their creator directly and the all-knowing informs them of exactly what they are meant to do, and they do it. As a result, we are here. Show me where there is a difference in opinion between scholars as to the values of the fine structure constant, proton to electron mass ratios, gravitational constant, and I will show you a bunch of idiots that are just as misguided as hadeethist scholars.
It is self evident from my study of the physical reality we live in that there is an incredible balance with which the universe has been constructed. I have had a mere glimpse into the rules of physics and I am already certain in faith and absolutely awestruck by the sheer thought that such a universe must have taken to build. This balance exists right down to the very angular momentum of the planet, if it was any other way then life as we know it could never exist. Show me where your hadeethist methods create such a balance that is reflected in the structure of society at large. For 1400 years, the supposed "word of the Holy Prophet" has been around and time and time again it has failed horrendously in achieving the very aim of islam, to create a state of peace, harmony and submission to the will of the all-seeing. It is at the point now that the very unbelievers you despise can remove any silly hadeethist that exceeds their limits from the planet at the push of a button, with some very rapidly moving metal and plastic explosive.
And is it not ironic that they came to this very state of power and magnificence by following those quranic ordainments where the all-knowing implores us to travel the earth, observe his creation, try to understand it? While the despicable hadeethists simply spent years living the high life of this world and bickering amongst themselves about what colour towel is makruh to shower with?
I'll say one thing, hadeethists have been questioning others who may have been rightly guided for a very long time. How about the hadeethists as a whole shut the fuck up for a second and let themselves and their actions in this world be questioned? Surely it is better for you to be questioned now than to face the wrong that you (and indeed us) have all done in the ultimate questioning of the hereafter? Why are you so afraid of questions from mere mortals yet so fearless about a questioning from the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-seeing, all-hearing?
While I fear for my life and worldy things, there is not an iota of existential fear in me, zilch. I doubt many hadeethists can say the same. You don't get to this state via blind faith or following the herd.
