Quran vs quranists
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hikmah is not something tangible like a book. its a form of capacity that is given by God to every human and was specially given to prophets and messengers in abundance due to the critical nature of their tasks. how hard is this concept to understand. i dont get how ppl use this term to refer to books hadith written by some imam folks.
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since when HIKMAH is translated or meant to be Sunnah/Legal Ways/Rules/Regulations/Law/Jurisprudence/Hadith
In 381, God tells us that all prophets were given the BOOK (alkitab) and WISDOM(alhikmah) so if hikmah means hadith/laws/regulations, all other prophets must have given out hadiths of their own too? do muslims accept this...no. Nor this means that these laws were the same as Muhammad.Yes, this is my point. All the prophets were given the book and the wisdom(hadith/laws/regulations) and it changed from prophet to prophet, none of them has the same Wisdom .
ok let's see the verse God said "all prophets were given the book" is it the same book ?
According to the 1736-39
- And follow not (O man i.e., say not, or do not or witness not) that of which you have no knowledge.Verily! The hearing, and the sight, and the heart, of each of those one will be questioned (by All?h).
- And walk not on the earth with conceit and arrogance. Verily, you can neither rend nor penetrate the earth, nor can you attain a stature like the mountains in height.
- All the bad aspects of these (the above mentioned things) are hateful to your Lord.
first of all 36 talk about this kind of people ( one?s saying "I have seen," while in fact he has not seen, or "I have heard," while he has not heard. )
Second of all 37 talks about arrogance .
Third of all talks about that these things that have been mentioned before are hateful to our God.
- This is (part) of Al-Hikmah (wisdom, good manners and high character) which your Lord has revealed to you (O Muhammad م. And set not up with All?h any other il?h (god) lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected, (from All?h?s Mercy).
forth of all The things that have been mentioned before are part of Al-HIKMA and this HIKMA is not the same HIKMA that came after the book of Allah and God knows.
"You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself.
Is Hadith not verified ?
I have given you the hearings, the eyesight, and the brain and you are responsible for using them. You shall not walk proudly on earth-you cannot bore through the earth, nor can you be as tall as the mountains. All bad behavior is condemned by your Lord. THIS IS SOME OF THE WISDOM inspired to you by your Lord. You shall not set up another god beside God, lest you end up in Gehena, blamed and defeated"
See above .
So hikmah is what God teaches and God teaches us in the Quran and not any other books.
OK, Wisdom is what God teaches us how? are the wisdom of a normal man is the same wisdom that God gives to his prophet ? and why here in this verse 39 Wisdom comes alone ?
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hikmah is not something tangible like a book.
So, if it is not something tangible as you claimed why it comes after the book of Allah and before the Gospel and the Torah ? let me remind you that these things are tangible .
I know that there is another kind of wisdom that it is not tangible but it is not the one described in Quran after "the book" and God also told us about this kind of wisdom .
its a form of capacity that is given by God to every human and was specially given to prophets and messengers in abundance due to the critical nature of their tasks.
Do you think that prophets are phylosophers ?
how hard is this concept to understand. i dont get how ppl use this term to refer to books hadith written by some imam folks.
Yes, it is hard for you . As I see you're just talking in air .
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Leyna , please if you have anything about the subject enlighten us ?
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Is that about Quran ? if Yes how, if No how ?
I can tell through this exchange that you are myopic to the extent that you cannot see beyond a sentence to the next and how they relate.Yes, sure. I didn't say the opposite. The question is simple in understanding is the book and wisdom are the same thing ? if yes how? if no why and how?
Let me remind you again that this kind of wisdom is from God .
Let's say the book is only as good as the reader.So, the answer is yes but Charlie the unicorn is not going to paradise. Let me introduce Islam to you sister ?
I suppose you see the end of days too? The wise thing to do, is to introduce something that you would be well acquainted with.Well, that's depend on you . Did you ?
I find such games tedious.You didn't answer my question (how did you take wisdom from it? )
Here we go again, re-read my post please. Now, how do you extract wisdom? Do you take everything as is? Do you question, understand, analyse and reason?If Yes, know that your post is talking about wisdom of Charlie the unicorn .
No. How did you manage to last so long on forums with this style of illogical debate is my question. -
Leyna , please if you have anything about the subject enlighten us ?
Sorry, that reply was so surreal, it just cracked me up! peace
Actually, I think you raised a very interesting subject. But this thread -- like most others -- is already going down the drain with insults, game playing etc., and I am just not in the mood for any sort of exchange along the lines of "I am right and you are wrong".
nope
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I can tell through this exchange that you are myopic to the extent that you cannot see beyond a sentence to the next and how they relate.
Let's say the book is only as good as the reader.
I suppose you see the end of days too? The wise thing to do, is to introduce something that you would be well acquainted with.
I find such games tedious.
Here we go again, re-read my post please. Now, how do you extract wisdom? Do you take everything as is? Do you question, understand, analyse and reason?
No. How did you manage to last so long on forums with this style of illogical debate is my question.You didn't answer my questions, so what is the purpose of speaking with you ? as it seems that you want to hide the real subject of the thread which is "The book and The wisdom" .
If you're going to speak about that you're welcome, if you are not please leave behind you a beautiful trace and God guides to his path .
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Actually, I think you raised a very interesting subject. But this thread -- like most others -- is already going down the drain with insults, game playing etc., and I am just not in the mood for any sort of exchange along the lines of "I am right and you are wrong".
No, I'll not leave the thread going down as you think. If people are going to speak about the subject, fine . If not, I'll stop them with respect . I think you can realise this from my posts .
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So, if it is not something tangible as you claimed why it comes after the book of Allah and before the Gospel and the Torah ? let me remind you that these things are tangible .
I know that there is another kind of wisdom that it is not tangible but it is not the one described in Quran after "the book" and God also told us about this kind of wisdom .Are you seriously saying that because Allah said hikma in a verse after he said the word Quran and hikma before he said torah and gospel in a verse that you think this is something different and tangible? Nothing came after the book. I cannot believe you are bending over backwards debating one word and trying to claim it means something totally different to what it does, in order to lead people away from Quran and onto something else!
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Are you seriously saying that because Allah said hikma in a verse after he said the word Quran and hikma before he said torah and gospel in a verse that you think this is something different and tangible?
Yes, because I've cited in my research every word in Quran where God mentioned "HIKMA" and I found it too different from the wisdom that all we know . And it is because my language sorry I can differ between the meaning of HIKMA and this verse and the meaning of the other in another verse .
There are two kind of wisdom in Quran The one that mind can extract and the one that God gave and it changes from prophet to prophet .
or why would God said "all the prophets were given the book ? is it the same book ?
Nothing came after the book. I cannot believe you are bending over backwards debating one word and trying to claim it means something totally different to what it does, in order to lead people away from Quran and onto something else!
I can not believe that you can noot understand the proofs from Quran itself and you're claiming that you're a follower of Quran . I'm not leading anyone away from Quran, as you see I'm using Quran , do you ?
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You didn't answer my questions, so what is the purpose of speaking with you ? as it seems that you want to hide the real subject of the thread which is "The book and The wisdom" .
If you're going to speak about that you're welcome, if you are not please leave behind you a beautiful trace and God guides to his path .
Not this time gadget, I'm not letting you get away with your games. You've already acknowledged that I've answered in your previous post, then you turn around and play the offended victim crying I didn't? What the heck? Adding to God's words won't change what's already therein. That's all you're doing, and this is why we have a protected book so that people through the ages can separate the bs from the truth.
Hikmah mentioned in the quran (not your average lay person hikmah, no sir) is hadith (the real god given hikmah aka sayings of the prophet) that was made up/collected centuries after the revelation, that contradicts, adds, substracts and dances all over the original. Yeah.
So basically even though the quran says listen to the best hadith (itself), there is wisdom in it...that falls on deaf ears. When the quran says, here is a book and wisdom...ooOh, that must mean bukhari et al. Gosh, no wonder wisdom is so hard to come by.
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Yes, because I've cited in my research every word in Quran where God mentioned "HIKMA" and I found it too different from the wisdom that all we know . And it is because my language sorry I can differ between the meaning of HIKMA and this verse and the meaning of the other in another verse .
so you are claiming that when God says hikma AFTER He says Quran it means a different hikma to when He says it before He says Torah and Gospel? Please explain how you arrive at that conclusion because wisdom is wisdom.There are two kind of wisdom in Quran The one that mind can extract and the one that God gave and it changes from prophet to prophet .
God gave all prophets wisdom, they were wise. Wisdom means many things, if one is wise he understand many things, but wisdom is wisdom.or why would God said "all the prophets were given the book ? is it the same book ?
yes thats why he said he gave them all The Book ???I can not believe that you can noot understand the proofs from Quran itself and you're claiming that you're a follower of Quran . I'm not leading anyone away from Quran, as you see I'm using Quran , do you ?
I cannot believe you are trying to twist Quran and say it says something else by putting one word in front of another. You have been given proofs from Quran that the hadith to follow is Allahs hadith yet you ignore that. You have been given proofs from Quran that it is wrong to follow conjecture but here you are trying to convince us that is what we are to follow. I have had solid proof you have no knowledge of Quran Islam or hadith yet I still keep trying to make your blind eyes open along with others here.
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Not this time gadget, I'm not letting you get away with your games.
I don't need to play games when I use Quran(it is not for playing), as I see you can't answer the questions of my posts neither the answer of the thread.
You've already acknowledged that I've answered in your previous post, then you turn around and play the offended victim crying I didn't?
You didn't answer, I'm not lying. You're trying to avoid my answers, well let's rewrite them again
look at what God said " The book and the wisdom " are they the same thing ? if Yes how, if No how?
can you tell us how did you take wisdom from it (the book of God) and the book of Sun Tzu art of war?
Are you a christian ?
none of these questions have been answered neither the questions in the thread .....
What the heck? Adding to God's words won't change what's already therein. That's all you're doing, and this is why we have a protected book so that people through the ages can separate the bs from the truth.
I'm not asking the impossible agree with me why, and how / disgaree with me why, and how with proofs.
Hikmah mentioned in the quran (not your average lay person hikmah, no sir) is hadith (the real god given hikmah aka sayings of the prophet) that was made up/collected centuries after the revelation, that contradicts, adds, substracts and dances all over the original. Yeah.
HIKMA is mentioned in Quran and it is not the same as the HIKMA that came after the book of Allah, if you disagree with this please give me one single proof from Quran explaining every HIKMA and that all of them means wisdom , just wisdom. I can use Arabic and I'll make you lost .
So basically even though the quran says listen to the best hadith (itself), there is wisdom in it...that falls on deaf ears. When the quran says, here is a book and wisdom...ooOh, that must mean bukhari et al. Gosh, no wonder wisdom is so hard to come by.
Yes, I didn't deny that God's book contains wisdom, the answer is is it the same wisdom in all the verses ? especilay the one that mentioned in it the prophet .
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so you are claiming that when God says hikma AFTER He says Quran it means a different hikma to when He says it before He says Torah and Gospel? Please explain how you arrive at that conclusion because wisdom is wisdom.
I did explain in my thread. If you go to mark every word that talks about "HIKMA" with red pen, you'll find two different Hikma. the HIKMA that came after the book of Allah and it is in 12 verses, and the one that God mentioned that it is for all prophet and they are both different totally .
I can explain more but because of time . I don't just reply to you .
God gave all prophets wisdom, they were wise. Wisdom means many things, if one is wise he understand many things, but wisdom is wisdom.
Yes, I didn't say the opposite but it is another wisdom not the wisdom literally .
yes thats why he said he gave them all The Book ???
Is it the same book ? you said yes but you didn't justify . is that what Quran said that Quran is the Gospel and is the Torah and is the Zabour.
I cannot believe you are trying to twist Quran and say it says something else by putting one word in front of another.
I'm not try to twist you, you want to go and look for and understand and see, go. But denying this without knowledge is denying what came in Quran .
You have been given proofs from Quran that the hadith to follow is Allahs hadith yet you ignore that.
Did I say the opposite ? No >> I follow Quran and it is the first one for me, but Hadith is its little brother . This is not the subject, we are talking about "The book and The wisdom" .
You have been given proofs from Quran that it is wrong to follow conjecture but here you are trying to convince us that is what we are to follow. I have had solid proof you have no knowledge of Quran Islam or hadith yet I still keep trying to make your blind eyes open along with others here.
If you said so and that's will make you happy, fine . So be my guest .
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I don't need to play games when I use Quran(it is not for playing), as I see you can't answer the questions of my posts neither the answer of the thread.
You contradict yourself from post to post. It's tiresome but at least we have a written record on the forum as evidence.You didn't answer, I'm not lying. You're trying to avoid my answers, well let's rewrite them again
look at what God said " The book and the wisdom " are they the same thing ? if Yes how, if No how?
can you tell us how did you take wisdom from it (the book of God) and the book of Sun Tzu art of war?
Are you a christian ?
none of these questions have been answered neither the questions in the thread .....
You must be joking. At least we have a written record to verify. Obviously this is directed at others, not you since your myopia is well established at this point. Whether I am christian, jewish or a tap dancing mongoose is irrelevant.I'm not asking the impossible agree with me why, and how / disgaree with me why, and how with proofs.
I think I'm asking the impossible a logical discussion.HIKMA is mentioned in Quran and it is not the same as the HIKMA that came after the book of Allah, if you disagree with this please give me one single proof from Quran explaining every HIKMA and that all of them means wisdom , just wisdom. I can use Arabic and I'll make you lost .
So, according to what you write...Hikma mentioned in the quran is NOT the same Hikma that came after the quran...then you say Hikma in the quran are two "Hikma's" and one of them is different from all other "Hikma's" in the quran but you can't explain why without adding to the verses when the quran explains itself, when it calls itself complete and all we need for our salvation -\ You can know all the arabic in the world, it won't help you if you don't use reasoning/logic.Yes, I didn't deny that God's book contains wisdom, the answer is is it the same wisdom in all the verses ? especilay the one that mentioned in it the prophet .
Apparently from your posts on the subject that I've read...there is a different hikma present in the quran, which is not like the other hikma and this refers to hikma after the quran that is, the hadith, thus you quote here
- This is (part) of Al-Hikmah (wisdom, good manners and high character) which your Lord has revealed to you (O Muhammad م. And set not up with All?h any other il?h (god) lest you should be thrown into Hell, blameworthy and rejected, (from All?h?s Mercy).
forth of all The things that have been mentioned before are part of Al-HIKMA and this HIKMA is not the same HIKMA that came after the book of Allah and God knows.
Why don't you take out the additions? It makes sense even then! Lo! How can this be? ...Why must you needlessly obfuscate simple concepts? I think most of us know why, but taking out the additions will not sit well with you, will it? God knows, that is why we have the quran, so that we too, can know. -
You contradict yourself from post to post. It's tiresome but at least we have a written record on the forum as evidence.
Ok, Prove that I'm contradicting myself .
You must be joking. At least we have a written record to verify. Obviously this is directed at others, not you since your myopia is well established at this point. Whether I am christian, jewish or a tap dancing mongoose is irrelevant.
You didn't answer
I think I'm asking the impossible a logical discussion.
You didn't answer .
So, according to what you write...Hikma mentioned in the quran is NOT the same Hikma that came after the quran...then you say Hikma in the quran are two "Hikma's" and one of them is different from all other "Hikma's" in the quran but you can't explain why without adding to the verses when the quran explains itself, when it calls itself complete and all we need for our salvation -\ You can know all the arabic in the world, it won't help you if you don't use reasoning/logic.
I said why , read my thread , and if you disgaree bring proof from Quran as you claiming that it explains itself, use Quran , are you afraid of scandal you .
Apparently from your posts on the subject that I've read...there is a different hikma present in the quran, which is not like the other hikma and this refers to hikma after the quran that is, the hadith, thus you quote here
Why don't you take out the additions?what additions ? the real important word here is "HIkma" after the book of Allah and before the Gospel and the Torah and God said that it is for teaching .
It makes sense even then! Lo! How can this be?
what do you mean ? am I giving you something not in Quran ? you follow Quran then answer by Quran and stop playing, I know what do you want, is to insult and be rude , so that you can banned me, sorry to disappoint you I'll not lose my temper . You did it before let alone you have tried to restrict me talking about hadith.
...Why must you needlessly obfuscate simple concepts?
This is not the subject and I don't know what do you mean by simple concepts
I think most of us know why,
OK , why ? and bring those (most of us) , the whole Quranist will not be more than 80.000 and goos knows.And I already defeat some of them.
but taking out the additions will not sit well with you, will it? God knows, that is why we have the quran, so that we too, can know.
you tell me .
Ah you have the Quran , well let me just greet you by this verse
( . ) .
the name of the surah is "At-tawba" the verses are 124-125 . Go look for the translators and what they said.
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By cut and paste?
Ah, I know that you don't believe that I'm Arab. Be my guest , I'm offering you to come and visit me and we will debate about anything you want (Arabic, Quran, science, ..etc) .
P.S Please keep on-Topic
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I said why , read my thread , and if you disgaree bring proof from Quran as you claiming that it explains itself, use Quran , are you afraid of scandal you .
I hope you wont add after the red word "through the courtesy of Bukhari and company", or "secretively".