Formal Debate on Abrogation in the Quran

savage_carrot

This is a formal debate with the members abdalquran and Thereformer1 on the subject of Abrogation in the Quran.

Only the above mentioned members may participate in this thread, using the quran as the basis for all arguments. You can create a new thread for informal debate/comments on this thread in the same section if you have anything to add.

Please begin.

abdalquran

My first questions are How many ayat are abrogated and why do you believe in that number?

thanks.

Thereformer1

My first questions are How many ayat are abrogated and why do you believe in that number?

thanks.

First of all , before answering this question, are you believe in the abrogation ? If Yes , give us a some meaning of the abrogation ? and the rules of using it ?

If No, why ? .

P.S People must know if you know about the subject . Am I right ?

PLus don't go to the topic where I explained the abrogation .

abdalquran

No i don't.

Please answer the question.

Thereformer1

No i don't.
Please answer the question.

Hahahahaha, why I answer the question if you know nothing about the subject ?

You take classes in science but you ask questions like "why Hamlet didn't get pregnant " ? hahaha .

The debate is done, he knows nothing about the subject according to this verse, I should not talk to him

(( )). 56 - ?

Thereformer1

Savage carrot, please bring the best in this website . Not someone like to make jokes.

abdalquran

You asked if i BELIEVE in abrogation. I don't. Do I KNOW about abrogation. Yes I do.

Now kindly answer the question.

SC, would you mind terribly kicking some butt here?

savage_carrot

Question How many ayat are abrogated and why do you believe in that number?

Response First of all , before answering this question, are you believe in the abrogation ?

Answer No i don't.

Response Hahahahaha, why I answer the question if you know nothing about the subject ?

Aq is saying he doesn't believe in abrogation Th1, he isn't saying he knows nothing about the subject.

Aq, if you don't mind, please answer Th1's additional question (If No, why ?) even though he hasn't understood your answer.

Thereformer1

No i don't.

Please answer the question.

Read again my post , when you say No , there is why after it.

Thereformer1

Aq, if you don't mind, please answer Th1's additional question (If No, why ?) even though he hasn't understood your answer.

Thanks for clarrifying the real question . If you don't believe in abrogation tell us why (you don't believe in abrogation)?

By the way before "Abdulquran" when I explained to him the abrogation he accpeted it and he has been abscent for a whole week .

abdalquran

I don't believe it because there is zero evidence in the Quran for it. The burden of proof is on those who DO believe in it.

Now on to my question please HOW MANY ayat are abrogated and what is your evidence?

Thereformer1

I don't believe it because there is zero evidence in the Quran for it. The burden of proof is on those who DO believe in it.

The debate is end here with a proof from Quran that the abrogation is existed and all Muslims believed in it .

{ } (106) .

Now on to my question please HOW MANY ayat are abrogated and what is your evidence?

The question now is not valid to answer because you're now an atheist and you need another type of dealing with you. You disprove a verse from Quran about the abrogate, so you disprove the Quran .

abdalquran

The question now is not valid to answer because you're now an atheist and you need another type of dealing with you. You disprove a verse from Quran about the abrogate, so you disprove the Quran .

Ok, assume for a minute that I'm an athiest.

Now kindly answer the question.

Thereformer1

Ok, assume for a minute that I'm an athiest.

No, an atheist needs another way of dealing with it. I must introduce Islam for you ? and them I must tell you about the concept of God in Islam ? and so on ..?

Now kindly answer the question.

I know, you die to know this answer because I've avoided answer you before about it elektro elektro , do you know what I said before ? go learn about the abrogate and you'll find them yourself . About my answer that you die to know it, you will know it untill you know the subject . Done .

abdalquran

So far, you have NEVER ONCE answered how many ayat are mansookh.
Kindly answer the question and give us proof why you believe its that number.

Thereformer1

So far, you have NEVER ONCE answered how many ayat are mansookh.
Kindly answer the question and give us proof why you believe its that number.

Yes, I've never gave you the number, you're right because you don't know about the subject and how the use of it, go learn and study about it, it will take you just some months , then come back and ask me this question, I'll give you every Nasekh with its Mansoukh .

UNtil that time , I must call you to convert "Islam". Do you know brother that Islam is the last religion from God to all humanity ?

abdalquran

So if you don't think I know about nasakh wal mansookh, thats fine. Answer the question first and then we can see if I know about it or not.

abdalquran

UNtil that time , I must call you to convert "Islam". Do you know brother that Islam is the last religion from God to all humanity ?

If i havent 'converted' to Islam, how you call me 'brother'?

Also, 'brother', Islam is not the 'last' religion. Show me where from Quran, islam is called 'the LAST religion' from humanity?

Thereformer1

My first questions are How many ayat are abrogated and why do you believe in that number?

thanks.

The number of the abrogate that all the scholars have no doubt in it and agreed in it all of them are 2 verses.

The number of the abrogate that some scholars have doubt in it and others have no doubt in it and they didn't agree with each other are 43 .

So adding the 2 verses to the 43 verses, will be 45 of the abrogate (2 are sure 100 %, 43 are under doubt and sure 50%).

I believe in that number because they have been studied it from ages ago (from the age of Shafi until now ) besides looking for many interpretations of the abrogate in these verses .

Now is my turn to ask

what do you know about the abrogate and what is the different meaning of the abrogate ?

abdalquran

Ok thank you.

Abrogation is the branch of the 3ulum al-quran which deals with how some ayah of the Quran abrogates others. There are 3 kinds of abrogation (although some disagree) which are

when the mansookh is taken out of the quran as and the hukm is removed
when the mansookh remains in the quran but the hukm removed
when the mansookh is taken out and the hukm is left in.

NEXT QUESTION

You say 100% percent of scholars agree on 2 ayatain which are abrogated. What is the daleel they have to support this view? I want the daleel from hadith please.