What is a Muslim?
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You answer as I suspected.
Why should I present to your goodself the evidence that I have read the article in first place?
You attempted to bring up issues with my view, yet did not have the decency to even read the article I referenced. Most, if not all, answers to your questions were contained therein. Is this the level of your debate, sincerity and research method?
Secondly if i had not read it how did I quoted your absurd claim "Salat=prayer Disproved for ever"?
Easy, one could have just read the title or small parts of it, not all of the actual article (which is obviously what you did). Does this possibility compute with your "logic"?
Thirdly What if a person lacks logic or reasoning skills? can he not learn about YOUR Islam? you will only transfer your knowldge to the people who have read LOGIC lessons from the sites you mentioned?
Al Quran itself says it is for those who think, reflect, use aql/reason, verify, examine evidence etc. In other words, it will transfer its internal knowledge to those who have these traits.
I do not mind if a person lacks logic or reasoning skills, but when a person adopts an obviously flawed method (i.e. not even reading a reference then attempting to refute it) or is insincere, then I will be blunt, as I am with you.
Even in the example you reference, the person wishing to learn is portrayed in a positive light. I gave you several opportunities to show your sincerity/logic, willingness to research etc but you failed miserably.
This will be my last post to you in this forum.
You are innocent of what I serve, and I am innocent of what you serve. Each to their own.
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When a Blind person went to ask some questions to the prophet and Prophet ignored him; do you know what Allah said about this in Quran? Surely you do!
He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.This is incorrect translation done blindly believing in a concocted story.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/080.%20Abasa/80.01.gif
He/the rich notable contracted/wrinkled his face with disgust and he turned his side.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/080.%20Abasa/80.02.gif
that a blind man has come to him.
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And nothing gave you, the Messenger the perception of his arrival since you were occupied attentively that it might purify him or he remembers the advice and then its recalling benefits him;
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since your attention is concentrated for him who regards himself as free from need, though you are absolved of any blame if he would not purify himself .
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And as for that blind person who came to you with effort and affection and he is a person who fears Allah but/for stated reason your attention is away from him.
http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/080.%20Abasa/80.11.gif
No , the fact is that this is a reminder/admonishment;
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therefore whosoever so willed he remembered/secured in memory/memorized/read/conveyed it to others;Chapter 80
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Wakas
I do not mind if a person lacks logic or reasoning skills
Oh,sure you do, your posts are evidence for it.
Wakas
but when a person adopts an obviously flawed method (i.e. not even reading a reference then attempting to refute it) or is insincere, then I will be blunt, as I am with you.
Now what if I start claiming that you had not read my posts before accusing me of not reading your article? Is this a serious way of conversation? Your blunt behavior is not harming me, i am to here to learn and will learn from some one else, but it is harming you, you are realy going against the teachings of Islam and Quran.
Wakas
Even in the example you reference, the person wishing to learn is portrayed in a positive light. I gave you several opportunities to show your sincerity/logic, willingness to research etc but you failed miserably.
I think once again you have not read the reference before responding, as usual,
it says"How do you know? He may purify himself.
Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message"
This is been said to messanger who surely was more intelligent, world knowing then you. But you are agressively claiming that I am "insinciere", "illogocal","lack critical reasoning" and "nonsense".Wakas
This will be my last post to you in this forum.
You are innocent of what I serve, and I am innocent of what you serve. Each to their own.
Thanks, but I would like to conclude that you miserably failed to answer my questions and to defend your BIG claim that "Salat=prayer, Disproved for EVER".
Allah Ho Akbar.
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Mazhar
This is incorrect translation done blindly believing in a concocted story.
And where is the translation with open eyes? Your translation is full of brackets/paranthesis, inserted ideas.
Progressive Muslims"
He frowned and turned away
Khalifa
He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.
Yusuf Ali
(The Prophet) frowned and turned away,
Pickthal
He frowned and turned away
(801)
AAabasa watawalla
801 (Asad) HE FROWNED and turned away,
and Parvez sahib
1-2 (In order to establish the Divine Order, the principle that should always be kept in view is the motive and enthusiasm of the people who are desirous of joining it, and not their worldly status or position. What you should consider is the desire in someone's heart). Why should (the one inviting others to this system) frown and turn his face away just because a poor, invalid or blind person has come to him for guidance. (652. 862-64. 1127. 1828. 26111-114).I find the translations of these "blind" men better and nearer to the context .
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My current belief is that the word "muslim" describes one who is striving for peace by following God's guidance, a definition I have still not been able to verify because of my lack of knowledge.
Badar - according to my current belief, a person only meets the definition of "muslim" as long as they ARE striving for peace by following God's guidance.
Agree with STRIVING part.
If you look at the meaning presented by Badar, it says " The word is derived from a verbal root , with an augmentative letter added at the begining. This converts it to a noun of time and place. With this little lesson in Arabic. Let us look at it's meaning."One who is in a state of safety and security, by becoming free of all evils". Please contrast, this with your understanding of word Muslim and the state of those people, who claim to be Muslims, are in."
This , if correct , suggests that being Muslim means a status of a human at that given time and moment when he is striving to be free of all evils to be in a state of safety and security. It is like when you are in a sorrow state, it is that moment when you are in sorrow, or happy, only when you are in that state only. Similarly, could it mean that being a Muslim is a state of that time only. To be in a state of perpetual "Muslim", one must strive to establish the divine system ( which is Salat) , a system of justice, equlity and continuation to strive for knowledge, to benefit the humanity. Hence, you do not convert into so called Muslim religion, by just saying a few words or following just few ritualistic doctrines. In order to continue to be in the state of being a perpetual Muslim ( i.e. state of safety and security and free of all evils), you need, to pay attention to it constantly, otherwise you falter. Hence, Qur'Aan, does not talk about just getting converted to Islam, it talks about Deen, so you can perpetually stay in the state of being a Muslim ( free of all evils and safe and secure)
Peace to all.
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Badar - according to my current belief, a person only meets the definition of "muslim" as long as they ARE striving for peace by following God's guidance.
Dear SAbboushi, you got it exactly right. A Muslim is not a permanent state. It is only temporary state. One has to live every minute to be a Muslim. This words has Kesra on Ayan Kalima. All such words suggest temporary states. Like , "to be gladdened". Only a temporary state, one is gladdened only, as long a reason exists.
Peace,
Badar
Thanks, kn for detailed understanding. I did not see your detailed explanation, until after I posted above. The language verifies your understanding. May Rabb bless you and us all.
Badar
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And where is the translation with open eyes? Your translation is full of brackets/paranthesis, inserted ideas.
Yes Rajaah, you do not see things with open eyes, and sometime your comments indicate as if you are blind also, as you have done here.
After these comments you have pasted translations of few, and you were blind not to see that what I inserted in the brackets to indicate the Hidden Pronoun of the Subject of verb others have also done it. Others have not given the reference for inserting in parentheses while I have indicated the Reference from Qura'an about the subject of the Verb. Had you seen the verses referred to indicate the person of the Subject Pronoun, you would have found that it is one Notable who did this, incident prior to it is narrated therein.
{others as you selected Rashad Khalifa-the Munafiq of 20th Century--put the Doer/Subject of the Verb because of concocted conjectural story--and not on evidence from Qur'aan---this is what they blindly followed]
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Mazhar
Yes Rajaah, you do not see things with open eyes, and sometime your comments indicate as if you are blind also, as you have done here.
Your comments indicate that you have learnd nothing from past, sorry to say.
Mazhar
you would have found that it is one Notable who did this, incident prior to it is narrated therein.
That is your theory and no Noteable translator or Arab tafseer writer agrees with you.
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Mazhar
others as you selected Rashad Khalifa-the Munafiq of 20th Century--put the Doer/Subject of the Verb because of concocted conjectural story--and not on evidence from Qur'aan---this is what they blindly followed]
I just cannot understand your bureaucratic behaviour' how can you call a person Munafiq? are you authorized by Allah to issue Fatwas?
Munfiq (n., in Arabic , plural munfiqn) is an Islamic Arabic term used to describe a religious hypocrite, who outwardly practices Islam, while inwardly concealing his disbelief (kufr), perhaps even unknowingly.
So are you given powers by Allah to study the inner of some one?
People like of you have disgraced Islam by issuing fataawa's on each and every one who has thoughts contrary to them
calling them "Munafiqs" "Kafir" and etc. what is the difference between you and a Wahabi or Ahl-e-Hadith Maulvi? calling Shia's Kafir and vice versa? and Sunni's calling Ahmedis Kafir and Munafiq and vice versa. -
You like to mention too many Ayats from Quran but never seem to learn from it, that is agony
In the Qur'an sense the term refers to a person who does not have faith, but pretends to.
Read the following Ayat carefully
"When the hypocrites come to thee, they say, 'We bear witness that thou art indeed the Apostle of God.' Yea, God knoweth that thou art indeed His Apostle, and God beareth witness that the hypocrites are indeed liars." - (Qur'an 631).No where by reading Quranic translation of Rashad, one can say that he is a Munafiq by above definition of Quran.
One of the chracteristics of Munafiq as told by Rasool Allah is
Whenever he quarrels, he behaves in a very imprudent, evil and insulting manner."
we should analyse ourselves first, are we carrying this chracteristic before calling others Munafiqs.Allah Ho Akbar
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And where is the translation with open eyes? Your translation is full of brackets/paranthesis, inserted ideas.
Mazhar
After these comments you have pasted translations of few, and you were blind not to see that what I inserted in the brackets to indicate the Hidden Pronoun of the Subject of verb others have also done it. Others have not given the reference for inserting in parentheses while I have indicated the Reference from Qura'an about the subject of the Verb. Had you seen the verses referred to indicate the person of the Subject Pronoun, you would have found that it is one Notable who did this, incident prior to it is narrated therein.Your quote in red was a blatent lie, since what I put in the Parenthesis was only reference to other Verses of Qur'aan, while Rashad Khalifa put the Personal Name of the Messenger Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam as the Subject of the Verb, in brackets. From where he got this Subject except from traditional gossip?
And Allah tells about the Munafiqeen that they are undoubtedly the liars.
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DH, please see
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/disproved_traditional_salat.htmVery interesting. Did you write it? Taken from the above-linked article
Some people have still argued that these signs/verses discuss conversion in order to make peace. IF this is the case, where else in the entire quran does The God give conversion as a possible solution for similar problematic situations? Can they find any?
Yes indeed. Verse 604
there is for you a good example in Ibrahim and those with him when they said to their people Surely we are clear of you and of what you serve besides Allah; we declare ourselves to be clear of you, and enmity and hatred have appeared between us and you forever until you believe in Allah alone
To pre-empt any arguments along these lines, the question of whether the Kafirs "started it first" with respect to hostilites with the Muslims is not relevent to the issue at hand. The point is that verse 604 establishes the principle that the only way that the Kafirs can end the Muslims' state of hostility and hatred against them is by believing in "Allah alone". Anybody care to argue that this does not mean converting to Islam?
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Munfiq (n., in Arabic , plural munfiqn) is an Islamic Arabic term used to describe a religious hypocrite, who outwardly practices Islam, while inwardly concealing his disbelief (kufr), perhaps even unknowingly.
Perhaps you may not have said this if you had studied the word , plural munfiqn. It is active participle of Form-III, therefore absolutely no question of "unknowingly". After reading various Appendix of Rashad Khalifa one should read this to enjoy the beauty and precision of words of Quran in describing Munifiqeen, provided he studies the meanings of Arabic words not digits.
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and if they speak you should carefully listen for their speech
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to find that it is loose and week/they are like cankered, hollow from within wood pieces made to stand with support of some structure.Chapter 63 Muna'fi'qoon
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Mazhar
Perhaps you may not have said this if you had studied the word , plural munfiqn. It is active participle of Form-III, therefore absolutely no question of "unknowingly". After reading various Appendix of Rashad Khalifa one should read this to enjoy the beauty and precision of words of Quran in describing Munifiqeen, provided he studies the meanings of Arabic words not digits.
and if they speak you should carefully listen for their speech
to find that it is loose and week/they are like cankered, hollow from within wood pieces made to stand with support of some structure.
Chapter 63 Muna'fi'qoon
Even though if we consider what you are saying is correct for an iota of minute, what makes you an authority to announce Rasahad or any one else as a Munafiq? after all the hard work he has done for Islam! you can disagree with his work and that is all.
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Even though if we consider what you are saying is correct for an iota of minute,
This is deceptive in nature, and is wilful deception to ones ownself, it is said with reference to this
Perhaps you may not have said this if you had studied the word , plural munfiqn. It is active participle of Form-III, therefore absolutely no question of "unknowingly".
This is either to be accepted without ifs and buts or refuted with argument.
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DH,
I only seen your post just now.
604 refers to the disposition between Abraham and his people, and that is it. There is no punishment for not converting, no specifics, nothing. Further, abandoning polytheist/idolatrous beliefs in favour of believing in God alone is not the same as asking them to do specifics. A conversion would not explain progressing options, nor how they are addressed throughout.
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Dear brothers,
Salaam.
There are a lot of english words used by as many people to translate this word "Muslim". (Submitters, peace makers, etc)
As it is ones duty upon himself to understand the message of "The, who is Not" by using his reason, logic,knowledge etc.
For me personally i would like to translate, understand, this word "SLM" as "Equilibrium"
the term "muslim" as the one whom strives to keep this status of equilibrium.What do you think or suggest or advice about my understanding?
Rabe Zidnee Ilman.
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Dear all, I do not need to tell you, what a Muslim is? Since, most of you claim, to be one. Please, just contrast your concept with this linguistice understanding of the word. It is easy enough for you to able to follow.
The word is derived from a verbal root , with an augmentative letter added at the begining. This converts it to a noun of time and place. With this little lesson in Arabic. Let us look at it's meaning.
"One who is in a state of safety and security, by becoming free of all evils". Please contrast, this with your understanding of word Muslim and the state of those people, who claim to be Muslims, are in.
Please, comment and share your thoughts.
Badar
Dear Nadir, good understanding. In the word Ayan Kalima has a Kesra. This would suggest a temporary state. Only safe and secure as long as free from all evils. Not a permenant state. Continue to strive always, to keep at balance, from free of all evil to be safe and secure.
Peace,
Badar
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Earlier accepted this
An Active Participle has been converted into Passive Participle in the translation.
Thanks for pointing that out. But, how about contemplating the meaning and the message in the meaning?
Peace,
Badar
Quote from bkanwar2 on May 04, 2010, 052408 PM
Dear all, I do not need to tell you, what a Muslim is? Since, most of you claim, to be one. Please, just contrast your concept with this linguistice understanding of the word. It is easy enough for you to able to follow.The word is derived from a verbal root , with an augmentative letter added at the begining. This converts it to a noun of time and place. With this little lesson in Arabic. Let us look at it's meaning.
"One who is in a state of safety and security, by becoming free of all evils". Please contrast, this with your understanding of word Muslim and the state of those people, who claim to be Muslims, are in.
Please, comment and share your thoughts.
Badar
Dear Nadir, good understanding.
Typical of Retarded children.
