If men must be circumsized, then God is not only liar, but incompetent!
-
According to the Qur'an the prophet mentioned in the Torah is "unlettered" (7157). I find no mention of this detail in Deuteronomy.
??? true, doesnt say he will speak Arabic or have a beard either. sorry about that, I will be sure to mention it when I next pray.
Isiah mentions it, and I think psalms is supposed to mention him by name but it probably missed out his middle ones so I wont go find it for you.
sorry got to go now, its been...........erm.....fun? ;D
-
Can you provide evidence for your claim of "best form" means "perfect form"?
Thanks.
954 says "ahsan", , in the genitive, singular form. Oddly enough, it's also in the masculine form. "Best" means perfect, because if it could be improved upon, then it wouldn't exactly be the "best", now, would it? How can something be the "best form" if it needs to have part of it chopped off in order to live a happy and healthful life, as proponents of circumcision would claim?
When something is called the "best form", it means that it shouldn't be changed, because it is already perfect. In English it is a superlative.
-
"Best" means perfect, because if it could be improved upon, then it wouldn't exactly be the "best", now, would it?
Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
How can something be the "best form" if it needs to have part of it chopped off in order to live a happy and healthful life, as proponents of circumcision would claim?
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
When something is called the "best form", it means that it shouldn't be changed, because it is already perfect. In English it is a superlative.
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.
Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
-
The circumcision of men is from the covenant made between Abraham and God back in Torah, Genesis 17. http//www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=KJV
All men of the Abrahamic religion are to be circumcized, that includes Muslims ;D
Peace Ayisha,
So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?
What about 638, 6114-15?
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
I guess what God MEANT to say was, "He has send down this book sufficiently detailed, except for the part about mutilating little boys. Sorry, my bad, not only did I mess up on creating men, but I forgot about that part... Dang, this weed is really messin' me up tonight".
You are quick to spout off these verses when it suites your needs, but when you feel like having masochistic tendencies, you completely disregard them!
Not only are you calling God a liar and an incompetent designer, but you are saying that he is a forgetful writer as well.If you have any question on which book supersedes which, just look at 619
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.
I guess what God meant by "Quran" was actually "Torah"... I'm sure He can create some powerful weed.
Peace.
-
Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
Well we're obviously not in the "BEST form", if the 'better form" is one with foreskin removed, now, are we?
In the eyes of God, best = perfect. If it could be better, God would make it better. Why would God design us with a major flaw, then tell us we are in the "best form", which needs surgery to make better?
-
Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
Wakas, rightly objected. Word 'Perfect" does not need comparison. While the elative "ahsan" is indicative of relativity. I don't know why "perfect" and "circumscion" caused some irritating confusion with reference to 9504 where there is no mention of "Perfect form". The compound used there is Possessive Phrase where the Possessive Noun is . "proportionally statured"; "exacting balance". It is the proportion that makes a man stand firm-which is the base meanings of the Root of Verbal Noun.
-
Many things are "best" but are improved. In fact, this is quite common, e.g. with any technological gadget.
Is that what proponents claim, i.e. it should be done in order to achieve happy/healthy life?
No, best does not equal perfect. That is why no English dictionary gives it such a definition.Further, you did not provide one occurrence of "ahsan" in AQ showing it means perfect.
And lastly, when something is "best", the obvious question becomes best with regard to what?
Please note, that does not mean I agree or disagree with your overall view, just that this point of best=perfect is nonsense.
according to some translators, ahsan to do perfectly, to perfect
http//www.submission.org/efarsi/arabic/Surat32_files/32_7.gif
Khalifa
He is the One who perfected everything He created, and started the creation of the human from clay.
Yusuf Ali
He Who has made everything which He has created most good He began the creation of man with (nothing more than) clay,
Pickthal
Who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay;
Shakir
Who made good everything that He has created, and He began the creation of man from dust.
Sher Ali
Who has made perfect everything HE has created. And HE began the creation of man from clay;God also calls himself; ahsan-al-khaaliqeen.
-
Like what?
You shall have no other gods before me
You shall not make for yourself an idol
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Honor your father and mother
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not steal
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighborthe 10 commandments given to Moses can be found in Exodus 202-17, 3411-27 and Deuteronomy 56-21 and Im sure you will agree they are also all in Quran, especially number 1 is there many times. There is not one there that cannot be found in Quran.
Salaam,
Yes, I am aware that the Torah is the first five books of the Bible.
Therefore by your argument, instead of abstaining from only 4 food namely blood, carrion, pork and food dedicated to idols (2173, 53, 6145 and 16115), we muslims have to abstain from food that is forbidden in the Torah (Leviticus 111-45)? The list includes animals with undivided hoof, sea animals with no fins or no scales, fowls that creep, birds of prey, carnivores and creeping animals. You may argue that God forbids different food to Jews because as punishment, but the forbidden food for Jews, as the Qur'an stated is (apart from the four food already forbidden for muslims) animals with claws and fats of oxen and cattle that touch the bones (6146) . Therefore tell me, out of the Torah and the Qur'an, which ones will you follow when it comes to the prohibitions of food?
Shall we then stone people guilty of adultery and witchcraft to death? Deuteronomy 222, Leviticus 2027.
Shall we too stone people guilty of apostasy to death? Deuteronomy 131-10
If you believe that the Torah, or the first five books of the Bible, to be confirmed by Qur'an, then I take it you believe the story of the Prophets in the Torah? Will you then believe that Lot became intoxicated and laid with his two daughters? Will you then believe that Jacob deceived Isaac in order to steal the blessing of his own brother?
There are many other things I can mention, but I will refrain. My point is, there ARE many commandments in the Torah that you do not find the Qur'an and the portrayal of the prophets in the Torah is oftentimes not as noble and honourable as in the Qur'an. In regards to Torah, I believe there is some truth and some errors. The Qur'an confirms the truth that you can find in the Torah, but not the errors. Since the Qur'an does NOT confirm circumcision, I do not take it as a commandment that should be imposed on mankind.
Salaam.
-
God also calls himself; ahsan-al-khaaliqeen.
The Second Noun is Definite and Plural and in it is included Allah. Obviously all creators are not perfectionists. Here ahsan becomes superlative; amongst all the creators He is the Best. In fact it says He is the Best in creating everything in excellent proportion, both the thing itself and with regard to its proportion with everything else, which grants beauty and harmony all over.
-
Well we're obviously not in the "BEST form", if the 'better form" is one with foreskin removed, now, are we?
In the eyes of God, best = perfect. If it could be better, God would make it better. Why would God design us with a major flaw, then tell us we are in the "best form", which needs surgery to make better?
You implied "best" means "perfect". In English, it does not.
Similarly, in Arabic, the relative term "ahsan" does not mean "perfect". Although, I'm sure it may be used like this somewhere, but not in AQ. Even in the example brought by RH, it does not prove anything.
I never said anything about "major flaw" or "needs surgery", so let's stick to the discussion at hand.
Human beings are not perfect, and their physical beings succumb to many problems, the only perfect being is God.
-
You implied "best" means "perfect". In English, it does not.
Similarly, in Arabic, the relative term "ahsan" does not mean "perfect". Although, I'm sure it may be used like this somewhere, but not in AQ. Even in the example brought by RH, it does not prove anything.
I never said anything about "major flaw" or "needs surgery", so let's stick to the discussion at hand.
Human beings are not perfect, and their physical beings succumb to many problems, the only perfect being is God.
We're supposed to succumb to "many problems" though. We are not meant to live forever.. Therfore we are still in the best form.
-
Human beings are born with defects/abnormalities and many other differences that differ from person to person. There are forms out there that are better compared to others, so this black and white interpretation of the verse won't work. It must then be pointing to something consistent or even generally and not specifically.
-
true, doesnt say he will speak Arabic or have a beard either.
And the Qur'an does not assert that the Torah mentions these characteristics. It DOES however assert that the UNLETTERED prophet is mentioned in the Torah, whilst the prophet mentioned in deuteronomy is NOT described as such.
Isiah mentions it, and I think psalms is supposed to mention him by name
We are talking about the TORAH the definition of which supplied by you is "the first 5 books of the old testament". If you cannot provide a reference to the UNLETTERED prophet from those books then your claim that the Torah has not been corrupted by those entrusted with it is without foundation.
-
And the Qur'an does not assert that the Torah mentions these characteristics. It DOES however assert that the UNLETTERED prophet is mentioned in the Torah, whilst the prophet mentioned in deuteronomy is NOT described as such.
We are talking about the TORAH the definition of which supplied by you is "the first 5 books of the old testament". If you cannot provide a reference to the UNLETTERED prophet from those books then your claim that the Torah has not been corrupted by those entrusted with it is without foundation.
Ok ;D
-
Peace Ayisha,
So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?
Some muslims dont eat shellfish as shellfish are scavengers and therefore unclean.What about 638, 6114-15?
638 There is not a creature in the earth, or a bird that flies with its wings, but are nations like you. We did not leave anything out of the book; then to their Lord they will be summoned.
6114 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?"
6115 The word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
Do a search for 'Book' In Quran and tell me what Book it refers to. Also explain 'people of the Book'. The Book is the whole thing, the whole message from God divided into portions.
003.023
YUSUFALI Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline (The arbitration).The Quran completes the message from Allah.
There is no changing the words because The Book is with Allah, people can change it 'with thier tongues' as they have been doing since day one, but it wont change the actual Words of Allah. We have Quran, the final part of the message, it is in the same words recited to Muhammed and we are fortunate in that respect, but still there are 'People of the Book (Jews Christians Muslims) who try to change its message by adding to it and saying this is from Allah when its not.
I guess what God MEANT to say was, "He has send down this book sufficiently detailed, except for the part about mutilating little boys. Sorry, my bad, not only did I mess up on creating men, but I forgot about that part... Dang, this weed is really messin' me up tonight".
seems too much weed is messing up your thinking.You are quick to spout off these verses when it suites your needs, but when you feel like having masochistic tendencies, you completely disregard them!
I answered a question that was asked.Not only are you calling God a liar and an incompetent designer, but you are saying that he is a forgetful writer as well.
No you are the one that called God a liar in your opening post. You are the one that ignores what is said about the previous portions of The Book and you will not find anywhere in Quran where it says those Books themselves are corrupt, only by what people utter from their tongues corrupts what was said.If you have any question on which book supersedes which, just look at 619
619 Say, "Which is the greatest testimony?" Say, "God is witness between me and you, and He has inspired to me this Quran that I may warn you with it and whomever it reaches.
Again I request you search 'Book' in Quran so you can make it clear to yourself that this Quran is the final part of the Book of Allah. There are many many verses confirming that Allah sent those previous Books and together, the whole theing, is THE BOOK.
As I said before though, the previous books were written in the words of man as far as we know and not recited like Quran was.
I guess what God meant by "Quran" was actually "Torah"... I'm sure He can create some powerful weed.
Peace.
I find your insults towards God to be distasteful. Maybe it would do you some good to stay off the weed a while and look at the book with a clearer mind?
-
Peace Ayisha,
So, by your logic, it's haram for Muslims to eat shrimp, crab, lobster, or any other shellfish too?
596, Lawful to you is game from the sea and its food as provision for you and the travelers, but forbidden to you is game from the land as long as you are in the state of ihram. And fear Allah to whom you will be gathered.
393, All food was lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel had made unlawful to himself before the Torah was revealed. Say, , "So bring the Torah and recite it, if you should be truthful."
4160, For wrongdoing on the part of the Jews, We made unlawful for them good foods which had been lawful to them, and for their averting from the way of Allah many
6146, And to those who are Jews We prohibited every animal of uncloven hoof; and of the cattle and the sheep We prohibited to them their fat, except what adheres to their backs or the entrails or what is joined with bone. that We repaid them for their injustice. And indeed, We are truthful.
16118, And to those who are Jews We have prohibited that which We related to you before. And We did not wrong them , but they were wronging themselves.
Peace,
Khalil -
The Torah is the first 5 books of the old testament, not the rest of it, just the first 5 books.
The 10 Commandments given to Moses were said to be burnt into stone tablets BY GOD Himself. Moses received these when he was on his 40 days on the mount. He returned and found his brother and the people worshipping the golden calf and broke the tablets in rage. God then instructed him to make 2 more copies which are said to be in the Ark of the Covenant. The reference to Moses and the calf are in Quran.
The Torah was given to Moses
Salaam Dear Sister Ayisha,
1st The Torah is the Old Testament given to the children of Israel gradually through their kings and prophets from the time of Moses all the way to just before the prophet Jesus.
2nd The Old Testament mentions of only TWO tablets which were broken after Moses throw them, out of anger. The Qur?aan mentions MORE than two tablets and no mention of them to had been broken, Moses just picked them up afterwords.
3rd Nowhere in the Qur?aan there is ANY mention of the TORAH given to MOSES. Moses was given the BOOK, NOT the Torah! Book of Moses is just part of the Torah.
Peace,
Khalil
