Fundametal Model(by servant of light) is it possible?
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Abdun nur
Salaam Raajah,
as I can see there is nothing to comment on, what are you saying you are presenting as an objection, you have not read the revised version, as it is not a few lines that have altered, you continue to point out nothing, how can I comment on nothing?I think you have to revise this many many times more dear nur.
I pointed out that Allah allows to buy and sell the land which you say we cannot.
You saidAllodial ownership (As Allah is the owner of the Earth, so you cannot buy and sell what you do not own)
First part of the statement is according to Quran second part is lunatics dream.
This system is not practical if it would had been, there would have been at least one example for it in the hsitory.
Muhammad Peace is upon him established a state in Madina, where state owned the Land, and it's produces were sold including the price for bounties from Allah.Fadak is one example i can quote instantly.
Actually Arnold mol has quite rightly pointed out the mistake you are making, You talk about Allah and Earth but forget the link between Allah and Earth that is Humans, Allah doesnot act directly, he assigns powers to humans as his representatives, he gives them power of attorney to do whatever they want to within the larger frame work of Quran. They can buy and sell the bounties which is of their part.
They can make legisilations as deem fit according to the environment etc.1CELOSTNOWFOUND
Peace All
It seems to me that there is much comment on the models that Abdunur is presenting without reading the model. This is not acceptable from a Quranic perspective.
But to present a model that is not from Quran's prespective is acceptable, come on bravo bravo
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Salaam Raaajah,
you make statement without thought or investigation, the Allodial system underpins the whole land law system, as I explained within the essay, which you have not read because you have decided it is against your religion. Allodial ownership existed as the predominant model across the earth in the past, it has been well tried and tested, why do you attempt to mislead people?
Have you some strange aversion to Islam?
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Peace Raajah
But to present a model that is not from Quran's prespective is acceptable, come on bravo bravo
I urge you to study the models without pre-conceived ideas before labeling it as not being from Quranic perspective. Also, please read the story of Thamud in the Quran as it goes some way to backing the allodial model.
First part of the statement is according to Quran second part is lunatics dream.
This system is not practical if it would had been, there would have been at least one example for it in the hsitory.
Muhammad Peace is upon him established a state in Madina, where state owned the Land, and it's produces were sold including the price for bounties from Allah.Fadak is one example i can quote instantly.
What is your Quranic evidence for the statement that I have made bold?
As to its practicality and lunacy, the Quranic message was constantly challenged by such claims. In an environment of utter corruption, justice is often seen as lunacy. That is why messengers were always accused of being madmen. For this reason I don't believe that this kind of defense is productive without solid evidence of this apparent lunacy.
I have question for you.
Do you believe that God has promised to take care of the needs of all creatures?Imraan
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Imraan
What is your Quranic evidence for the statement that I have made bold?
This is an old tactic now, this appears when logic ends. The model you think will change the world, Abdun nur says about this
Allodial ownership existed as the predominant model across the earth in the past, it has been well tried and tested,
Where is the Quranic eveidence for the portion i made bold?
Imraan
As to its practicality and lunacy, the Quranic message was constantly challenged by such claims. In an environment of utter corruption, justice is often seen as lunacy. That is why messengers were always accused of being madmen. For this reason I don't believe that this kind of defense is productive without solid evidence of this apparent lunacy.
No body disagreed with the basic message of quran they knew it was true, Don't lie, don't back bite, Don't kill innocent, take care of Yaatama, respect your parents, love your youngestrs, these were messages of Quran, and people knew it was true, but for their own interests they were not accepting it. But in this case there is a basic flaw inthe Model, not acceptable from the beginning truly against the Model of Allah.
Imraan
I have question for you.
Do you believe that God has promised to take care of the needs of all creatures?This question doesnot make any sense to me. Hundreds of thousands have been dead because of Hunger in Ethoopia, Millions sleep without three times food. 9 million dollars worth car from Mersedez is purchased by prince of Dubai (goldplated).
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This question doesnot make any sense to me. Hundreds of thousands have been dead because of Hunger in Ethoopia, Millions sleep without three times food. 9 million dollars worth car from Mersedez is purchased by prince of Dubai (goldplated).
Peace Raajah
There is an abundance of everything on earth. There is not scarcity. God has provided human beings with everything they need and even more. And God sustains everything.
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David-K
Peace Raajah
There is an abundance of everything in earth. There is not scarcity. God has provided human beings with everything they need and even more. And God sustains everything.
Salaam to you too,
So where is the point? If Allah takes care of every needs of creatures, why people die of Hunger, why don't they have enough cloths? Why are few richer than others?
Allah has provided us with abundance of resorces but it is Human who have to Manage and Earn, because Allah has made us rulers of the earth and has given us Authority to use these resources up to a certain time, we are the owners of these resources and we will decide how to use them. If we mismange Ethopia is the Result, Pakistan is the Result, India is the result, If we Mange Europe is the Result, I don't know in what category these ARabs fall?
I think your theory fits them, Allah has decided to take care of all their needs. -
So where is the point? If Allah takes care of every needs of creatures, why people die of Hunger, why don't they have enough cloths? Why are few richer than others?
Raaajah,
Poverty, hunger, all these things are because things are shared unjustly. Imagine a room with 10 persons. These 10 persons get a huge cake. And if there are 10 persons, and 10 pieces of cake, there will be 1 piece of cake for each person. But what happens if one of the persons are greedy, and takes 5 pieces of cake for himself. Then some of the persons will not get a piece of cake. Because he has taken their share. And they will remain hungry. As you can see, the cake is enough for everyone in the room, but when it is shared unjustly, some persons will not get a piece of cake.
Facts about our world
Did you know that almost half the people in the world (over 3 billion people) live on less than 2.50 dollars a day.
Did you know that the wealth of the 7 richest people is more than the wealth of the 41 indepted poor countries (567 million people).
Did you know that nearly a billion people entered the 21st century unable to read a book or unable sign their names.
Did you know that 1 billion children (1 in 2 children in the world) live in poverty.
Did you know that 640 million children live without adequate shelter.
Did you know that 400 million children have no access to safe water.
Did you know that 270 million children have no access to health services.
Did you know that 10.6 million children (or if you will, roughly 29,000 children per day) died in 2003 before they reached the age of 5.
I think we should deeply reflect on the facts mentioned above. Because it is the truth about our world.
Allah has provided us with abundance of resorces but it is Human who have to Manage and Earn, because Allah has made us rulers of the earth and has given us Authority to use these resources up to a certain time, we are the owners of these resources and we will decide how to use them. If we mismange Ethopia is the Result, Pakistan is the Result, India is the result, If we Mange Europe is the Result, I don't know in what category these ARabs fall?
I think your theory fits them, Allah has decided to take care of all their needs.Good points. And I agree that Europe is more advanced and functions better than some middle eastern, arab and african countries. However, both the east and the west are following extreme systems. Neither the eastern countries nor the western countries are following the middlepath. Some western countries use the recources of our world too much, while some of the eastern countries use the recources of our world too little. The western countries are responsible for much pollution in the world. The eastern countries are responsible for much poverty in the world etc. The Quranic system has solutions for problems we see in both eastern and western countries. islam is not a religion, it is a complete system for mankind. And when/if this system is implemented one day, then the problems of our world would disappear. And we will have a true balance. A correct system based on truth and reality.
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David-K
And when/if this system is implemented one day, then the problems of our world would disappear. And we will have a true balance. A correct system based on truth and reality.
You are a nice person.
But brother sorry to say if the system You and Our Mullahs are trying to implement from last 5000 years or so is not intact and passed the test of time, then sorry to say it never could. It could be a dream and wishful thinking but not reality. We need practical people and not dreamers.
The Mongols were at the doors of Baghdad and Muslims were debating for how to implement Quranic system in the other parts of world.
They are conquering the skies and we are discussing how to implement some Pathetic Model system that has no roots even from Quran.
Disgusting.Regarding your facts about the poverty I can present more than that but this will distract us from the actual topic.
One thing I would like to say when you say " Allah takes care of all the needs of creatures" then why he allows that ONE person to eat the cake of other ni9ne?
Do you want to blame Allah for this? If YES than your logic is correct, but if NO than just think about what I said for a minute.Thanks.
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Salaam Raaajah,
when have Mullahs, Imams, mufti or any other religious fanatic ever established anything but restrictive and anti-Islamic systems, they are not Muslims, as Islam is not a religion of any sort, it is a Deen, a way to live in this world, free of Mullahs, Imams and muftis, etc.
You think religion will help you, all religion without exception enslaves and confuses, only the Deen of Islam understood as systems to live within, will free humanity, as Allah intended, if you wish to remain within a usury model as a slave you are free to do so,within Islam there is no compulsion, the true crime is, if you through your actions enslave those around you; the subjugated always subjugate those around them, as they can not perceive they are indeed a slave.
The reason a few people eat 9 pieces of the cake and leave all the multitude of others with the one slice is because they establish the system we are subjugated to exist within, and the people sharing the single slice support and embrace the model of society created by the usurers, as you do yourself, as I say this is your free choice.
As for your professor of economics, the entire profession of economics is a fraud from the bottom up, they are employed to confuse themselves into thinking a bad idea for an investor is a good idea to invest in, they simply manufacture excuses to justify a usurious contract. How could a person who excels in the field of confusion create anything but more confusion.
People think they can reform the existing system, an absolutely impossible task, how can you make an incredibly bad idea, into a good idea?
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Abdun Nur
People think they can reform the existing system, an absolutely impossible task, how can you make an incredibly bad idea, into a good idea?
brother Muhammad Peace is upon him Did that! He turned incredibly bad society into Incredibly good society, he reforemd the existing system, as the system existed but was corrupted.
when have Mullahs, Imams, mufti or any other religious fanatic ever established anything but restrictive and anti-Islamic systems, they are not Muslims, as Islam is not a religion of any sort, it is a Deen, a way to live in this world, free of Mullahs, Imams and muftis, etc.
Imam Muhammad presented the best system in shape of Madina Estate.
How easy it is for you to call Non Muslims to those who donot fit your agenda? Indeed you have a Mullah hidden within you,the entire profession of economics is a fraud from the bottom up
Oh! I sympathize with you brother.
What are your golden comments about scientists and Doctors? I will love to hear them.
Thanks.
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Salaam Raaajah,
you seem very bitter about the systems of Islam, Islam is not a religion, therefore Muhammad was not a religious man, he was a practical man, he must have established the systems, but as I have said previously within this or the other thread, people corrupt quickly, especially if they can not understand simple models of freedom, like yourself.
As for state education, it is within the title, state education.
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Peace Raaajah,
brother Muhammad Peace is upon him Did that! He turned incredibly bad society into Incredibly good society, he reform the existing system, as the system existed but was corrupted.
I agree with Abdun Nur. Reflect upon the following metaphor. When a tree is old and rotten, and does not benefit you, you have to pull it out of the ground and plant a new tree. No matter how much you try to fix it, it won't benefit you. You have to completely remove the tree and plant a new tree. Reform is good, but Revolution is better. We can learn a lot from the story of Abraham. He abandoned falsehood and what his society was believing. We should not differentiate between the prophets. And we can learn things from the stories of the different prophets. However, we are adviced to follow the creed of Abraham (See 2130, 2135, 395, 4125, 6161, 2278, 16123).
Imam Muhammad presented the best system in shape of Madina Estate.
How easy it is for you to call Non Muslims to those who donot fit your agenda? Indeed you have a Mullah hidden within you,
Oh! I sympathize with you brother.Mocking is wrong and uncompatible with islam no matter who does it.
What are your golden comments about scientists and Doctors? I will love to hear them.
Many scientists and doctors are often wrong, accept falsehood, and are imperfect like everyone else. And when it comes to economy, Abdun Nur is right, the system is a fraud and is based on falsehood and lies. It is not a natural system. Watch money masters or zeitgeist addendum to learn more about the negative things of our economical system. And since the system is a fraud, by using Logic we will understand that the profession is also a fraud. And the mission of the profession is to support the existing falsehoods, not change anything. However, keep in mind that I am not saying that you can not use the economic profession for anything good. Just like other subjects in university and college, knowledge about economy can be useful and beneficial. For example you can become self-employed and start your own business. And contribute to people.
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The Third Model.
Human Energy economic system.
?people know the prices of everything and the value of nothing.?(Oscar Wild 1891)
So you might be thinking, the only model of finance I know is that of usury, so how does the Islamic financial model, entirely free of usury work?
As far as I can see there are three avenues open, the first is to re-establish the basic monetary system that existed for thousands of years before the Jesuit and Jewish money lenders perverted and corrupted it, based on physical coins, containing an established purity of valuable metals. This being a store of labour.
Secondly, a money free system, based on the foundation of wealth, which is labour, without a representative paper currency, organised through a register. This is a register of labour.
Finally the best option, you could combine the two to form a extremely strong foundation, and so a more stable financial system.
?The opposite of consumption isn't thrift. It's generosity.?
The reason the world is fuelled through ever escalating consumption, is the need of the usury banking system to double the amount of debt injected into the world every decade, through a need to repay interest on the loans issued in the past, as a result of the 100% debt currency model.
War is the best method the banking system has of transforming society and enslaving the population to debt, and ever descending restrictions. If you support the usury banking system you are an advocate of war, poverty, exploitation, famine, ignorance and confusion, as these are the fruits of banking.
To aid consumption, the corporate monopolies created through the engineered boom and bust cycles of the bankers, manufacture products that are engineered to have short life use, retard technologies, build in high product maintenance and so fuel the consumption, and so the burden upon the individual.
The old coinage system.
Any individual can mint coins, under the prerequisites, universally agreed, of a set thickness, shape and purity, in silver, gold, platinum, whatever metal they like, being established as of value, the reason this conformity is required is to allow everyone a simple way to test the purity of coins, as only a pure metal will weigh an exact amount if made of an exact size, contamination will change the weight, so a simple set of accurate scales and a holder to test the size, are all that is required; other than that they could be of any design. No monopolies of money production by individuals or organisations can be tolerated; the universality of all things is freedom, while monopolies are a road to slavery once more.
There are electronic devices that can check metal purities also, that are not that expensive, based on the resistance of metals.
Based upon the polycentric community model, the hub central repository of each cell group, or community can lend future labour, at absolutely no interest, to people the repository find to have the intention to repay the loan, when supported by their surety group, or others within the community, (the ability to administrate certificates is only sanctioned for the central repository of each cell, no individual or separate organisation can do this, however any individual or organisation could lend coins at absolutely no interest if they so wished). Only a living human being can borrow future labour, no abstract business entity can be created to borrow, it is only through combined efforts large loans can be achieved, when many people join together to form a strong purpose, such as the twelve members of a surety group combining their resources and labour to establish a business resource.
The communities repository administrator creates the required number of certificates to cover the loan, the individual that has borrowed the money spends his certificate, representing silver coins, and at any point people in possession of certificates can collect the silver coins that these certificates represent, from the central repository.
The individual that has taken out the loan, over time repays the loan with coins, or certificates that he acquires, returning either the certificates or the coins that have been loaned by the repository, back to the central repository, in so doing, no inflation, no interest, no shortage of funds will exist, as the balance will be restored. Historically it is demonstrated that on average only 5% of physical reserves are in circulation, so this system would function without a great danger of difficulty.
The money will simply circulate through the community, no hardship or usury.
This system is based on 100% intrinsic value, therefore if an individual refuses, is unable or dies and the loan is unpaid, it must still be honoured, no loan can be written off by the repository without exoneration, as it must balance the books. This would fall to the surety group who supported the issue of the loan, to dispose of assets belonging to the defaulter, or funding the loss.
The surety group or community members who sanctioned the loan that defaulted must stand the cost of the loss, three methods are open to acquire a loan, it must be backed by personal assets, it must be guaranteed by an individual (a guarantor) with sufficient assets to cover the loan, the surety group of the borrower, or community members at large must personally sanction the loan, and therefore carry the burden of the risk, accept the risk, by signing on the loan, if they wish to allow its sanction.
If the paper certificates are stolen they will be registered as void and new certificated issued to the individual that was robbed, a system of certificate number verification would be practised and be readily available to all, to eliminate fraud, a simple digital system could easily be constructed.
If the community at large wished to borrow money, for public works for example, they would perform the same service for themselves, under close scrutiny, and with the consent of sanctioning community members.
The community would cancel out these certificates as they paid for central council services, or when they gave the council monetary gifts to fund social or community projects.
The true gift within an Islamic community would be the labour of the individuals within it, to build and enrich the environment all develop within.
As ultimately these certificates would return to be destroyed, this mandatory destruction is the key to the system; this would place no burden upon the community, no inflation, no interest, no taxation.
If individual cells wished to dispute the validity of another hubs repository certificates, being other than the one they themselves used, they would be returned and exchanged to the hub repository that issued them, for either a certificate from the hub as a certificate exchange, or for coins.
Another alternative would be universal agreement of certificate structure and value, as to make them interchangeable throughout the system, invariably and ultimately being returned specifically to the place of issue to be destroyed, of course this could be done remotely by other repositories through serial numbers and exchange of certificates having one cancelling out another.
Of course if an abundance of coins existed within the hub repository, they would be used first, having no need of certificates, as long as a minimum store was retained for daily demands.
Internationally a 100% silver/gold coinage model would have absolutely no problem trading with societies based in other models, as metals always retain a strong value, even under the manipulations of the bankers, there value is still recognised. And fiat currencies would be converted into metal before exchange.
The Islamic system cannot exist in tandem with a usury system, they are mutually exclusive, if a community establishes this Islamic system they must refuse to participate in the outside usury system within the community, but unfortunately people will through greed and self interest corrupt the Islamic system quickly, contaminating it with usury if they are unchecked, the establishing and witnessed signing of the social contract is a prerequisite of the Islamic community.
Under the most stringent and exacting oversight, a system of debit, built within a repository system, based on an intrinsic positive balance, without exception, always under comprehensively enforced regulation; then a digitised system could be established, although I advise strongly against this concept without deeply established and enforced parameters, as it is too open to widespread abuse, and could easily but the root of deception and fraud.
A money free system.
Within a community that has no physical metal wealth, a coin free system can be established, evolving into a coinage/labour register system, as wealth is generated through the industry and efforts of the community, not through the printing of paper notes.
All money is fundamentally a physical representation for labour, the bankers trick the population into thinking labour is worthless and paper money is wealth, so they print money (steal our labour) for the cost of printing.
Human labour is wealth, you can not be destitute if your labour is wealth, you can not starving when your labour is wealth, only through the trick of the bankers are you fooled into valuing there money and not valuing labour.
So the concept of a coinage system could be devolved; instead of using gold or silver we could simply accumulate labour accomplished within a written register, the register would function more universally if labour was gauged through a physical silver coinage system. Not all labour is equal, one man's labour is not always the same as another, a bus driver is not equal to a medical doctor for example.
It would in some respects work the opposite to money, it represents physical value in pure product, you cannot tax this system without dominating its administration and this is a system that would continue absolutely independent of any outside financial model, having no need of any physical money, either paper or metals. It would work directly opposite to all other monetary systems in respect to hoarding wealth, with paper or metal it restricts the circulation of wealth, with this system it benefit?s the community, as it?s the accumulation of physical labour within the community itself, the more you hoard the more you accomplish.
The purchase of goods would function simply within a representative register, allowing community members to purchase goods through register debits, and none members to use silver coins, through this structure wealth would expand and prosperity be common place.
Wages of a slave or full portion of labour.
The concept of paying wages has a limited value, it has a master slave structure, it now serves as the predominant structure within the modern usury model. The structure is a fractal of a corporation, the workers feeding the owners.
Shared risk, shared rewards.
A portion of the profits within a group endeavour would function within the Islamic concepts, this share would reflect the value of the input of the individual.
If an individual wished to join an existing business endeavour, and there was an opening of another individual who wished to exit the endeavour, then they could buy themselves into the business, at a price they and the individual leaving, considered its worth. As with every business assets accrue, through the labours of the individuals who invest their labour within the business, this has a value of labour, this labour could be accounted for through a new member of the group replacing another.
Expansion If an individual wished to join an established business and the members within it wished them to be part of it, they would mutually establish the parameters of the collaboration, based on mutual agreement, they need no legislation, as exploitation is not an element of the model. An individual adds their own labour, and so earns there own rewards, it has little impact on the other members, however as a business expands, it would require more individuals to invest their time labouring within it to fulfil obligations.
As within common law no corporation can exist, the predominant corporate structure is directly against common law.
Islamic Insurance.
Insurance is a valuable protection from unforeseen hardships, the present system based on chance is not an acceptable model, it functions on obscene profits for taking little chance.
I will give you an example of the Islamic model
If I demanded 10% of your crop in exchange for insuring it against loss, so I gambled you would have a good harvest, when the odds maybe only 1% of the time a crop is lost. This is a form of usury.
The Islamic model, protecting yourself from the hardship of a crop failure is simple. A group of farmers would join together, each committing (only theoretically, as only upon demand of the share would it be supplied) a share of their crop into the collective pot, proportionate to the size of their holdings, only if a farm failed would any burden be extracted from the collective, otherwise the insurance would cost nothing. This loss burden sharing insurance could be linked across large group collectives of farmers, so reducing the burden through scale of any potential losses.
Another example
Car insurance should be organised within the same structure, a group of car owners join together, investing an amount proportionate to the value of their car, at the end of the year, after all the claims have been paid, the remainder would be redistributed according to the proportion originally invested. Or the car owner could simple make up the short fall to continue their insurance for another year.
Usury Markets.
Stock market, pensions, futures market, derivative market, commodities market, currency market, everyone of them are absolutely usurious, and against the Islamic model.
Many pervert the simple concept of Usury or Riba, to justify to themselves they are still a Muslim, and what they do is fine. They confuse others and will be loud and vocal in their defence of these corrupt and worthless markets.
To understand usury lets examine an example
If I lent you a watermelon, and expect you to repay me two watermelons in return, I have laboured in the creation of the one watermelon, but I expect a second watermelon in return for no labour, I have extorted the fruits of your labour from you, because to create the second watermelon I must labour twice as much as you laboured in the creation of just one watermelon, and surrender that labour to you in reward for no effort on your part, this is usury.
To sell a crop of watermelons at a discounted price before you have planted the seeds, and harvested, jumping straight to market, as is now commonly practised through the futures market, is selling something you do not have, and may never have, you may only sell what you posses, to sell a potential is a form of usury, you are selling nothing now for the fruits of someone?s labour, for a price that if you deliver in the future would be for less than you have earned.
You shall give full measure when you trade, and weigh equitably. This is better and more righteous. (Surah 1735)
You shall give full measure when you trade; do not cheat. (Surah 26181)
You shall weigh with an equitable scale. (Surah 26182)
These principles can be applied to any area of commerce, for example if you sign a contract to pay a set fee for a service, irrelevant to whether that service is used or not, say a gym membership contract, but never go, yet you can not escape the contract period, this is a futures contract and a form of usury, any contract based on potential future use of service, as opposed to actual use is again not full measure for the fruits of your labour, so usury.
Copyright.
Is copyright theft?
It is a wonderful tool to control and monopolise supply of goods, maintain inflated prices, hold technology back, hold competition back, reduce diversity and get paid again and again for the same work.
Doesn't sound very Islamic.
Firstly they say it is theft to break a rule they have established in the purchase of the copyrighted product, but what have you stolen?
They say you have stolen their sale of that product, or you have made money from an aspect of their copyrighted product, without giving them a share.
Theft To constitute theft there must be a taking without the owner's consent, and it must be unlawful or felonious; every part of the property stolen must be removed, however slightly, from its former position; and it must be, at least momentarily, in the complete possession of the thief. See {Larceny}, and the Note under {Robbery}.
But as you can see under the concept of theft nothing has been stolen when you copy an original, so they redefine it as piracy.
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The act or crime of a pirate.
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(Common Law) Robbery on the high seas; the taking of
property from others on the open sea by open violence;
without lawful authority, and with intent to steal; -- a
crime answering to robbery on land.
So they redefine theft and piracy, as nothing has been stolen but the thought that they have not received payment for the copy of the original.
They make obscene profits, but restrict and control the products they generate to make certain they maintain the obscene profits. They use clever marketing to convince people that they need obscene profits to function, but copyright is a legal construct in opposition to common law.
So they redefine theft to mean controlling what others do with their own property, on the premise that it deprives the "originator" of future income.
Intellectual property is the next line of defence, the logical conclusion of "intellectual property" is that it dictates what someone can and cannot do with their own real property; in other words these two types of "properties" are mutually inconsistent. Moreover, why not take "IP" to its logical conclusions the man (and his descendants) who first decided to build his home out of wood should be receiving royalty payments from everyone else. Of course, "IP" advocates will never agree to this, since in order to keep their state granted criminal monopoly privileges they must "draw the line" at some arbitrary point. Finally, the reality of "IP" is definitely usurious, since it is equivalent to selling your shares in a company, but demanding to be paid the dividend, or selling your property but still demanding to receive rents from it. Selling anything is transferring ownership, once the buyer believes he owns the product in question, he is paying for a future stream of income (in the case of assets) or utility in general. The alternative is known as renting, and "IP" advocates purposely confuse these two ideas in order to reap the gains of selling their products, while demanding to have final say over its use. Well you cannot have it both ways, if you want to rent out the use of your products then do so, and you will receive a lower price for it. Don't hide behind implied legalisms and small print. (Quote Wootah on Freeminds)
Labour is wealth.
You could donate your time as Zakath to the communal charity, you could donate your time to charity outside of the communal effort, a direct interaction, unlike paper money, which is donated without connection, so in isolation and detachment.
If you ran this system in unison with the silver and gold coin system it would then remain up to the people to decide how they wanted to be paid, but a labour based system would value labour not the certificates of debt, and so free the community from the existing monopoly which generates immense misery and is nothing more than a restrictive and expensive money exploitation.
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Abdun Nur
SalaamInequalities along all dimensions including income and wealth are not only perfectly legitimate so long as they "come about in the right way," but are the natural consequence of human freedom. And Quran supports this As I have quoted many verses, which you donot want to give any importance in your arrogance.
Your attempt to mix, theory of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon and Bakunin with Quran and be the founder of this new theory is Void attempt. You have not yet answered the qusetions of Musho and mine
You will replace the existing system with what? How? and when? You have yet to answer MUSHUS question "How will not An anarchist society, lacking any central coercive authority, would not quickly degenerate into violent chaos?"
The sucess of your system depends upon the theory assuming that human beings are naturally good or at least perfectible, that is far from fact.The State of Madina by Prophet Muhammad was the best system, and under his system the estate owned the LAnd, as I have given you the example of FADAK, the bounties of Allah were bought ans sold, with Labor plus bounties price.
Minus Quran and Islam from your theory and I have no objection to your theory, go and try it, but as long you use the name of Islam and Quran forthis system I will not accept that. Because it has no support from Quran. -
Salaam Raaajah,
you are very argumentative, I can not think why you are so negative on every aspect, not a single thought seems to meet with anything but aggressive assault?
The 'State' as you call it of Madina seems to be something you have detailed and extensive authority on, you have extensive knowledge of all the Qur'anic models used by Muhammad in the original organisation, this organisation that quickly spread across the earth, and then suddenly stopped after a couple of centuries.
Can you explain exactly what the original models were, and what happened to halt the expansion and implementation of your Madina models?
You also seem to be an expert on Roman Catholic European history, this being a version of history filled with corruptions and confusions, are you Roman Catholic, they often hide behind illusions, presenting themselves as pious religious figures to mis-direct or confuse others? Of course if you were you would not say.
The final model is the polycentric community model, as I mentioned to Mushu, this will explain the organisation of people, as for implementation, as I keep explaining allodial land ownership and common law are the foundations that the fictions of the Roman Catholic corporate structure stand upon.
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Salaam Abdun Nur,
Salaam Raaajah,
you are very argumentative, I can not think why you are so negative on every aspect, not a single thought seems to meet with anything but aggressive assault?Yes I am argumentative, brother for a certain reason. I am here at this forum from 2005 and very seldom I have started a topic, definitly I was interested in your models, therfore I started a thread for it.
Please show me where I am negative? so i can reform myself? or anyone who doesnot agree with you is a Negative thinker to you? Your posts have proven that you are quick to label anyone disagreeing with you as a Non Muslim.
You have a Model I have no problem to it, but when you say it is Islamic and from Quran then obviously I have doubts.
NurThe 'State' as you call it of Madina seems to be something you have detailed and extensive authority on, you have extensive knowledge of all the Qur'anic models used by Muhammad in the original organisation, this organisation that quickly spread across the earth, and then suddenly stopped after a couple of centuries.
Can you explain exactly what the original models were, and what happened to halt the expansion and implementation of your Madina models?
No! I have no authority on any model. Why this model failed is obviously as you mentioned due to corruption and I agree. Niether I am expert of any kind on history, but I will not let go your statements unchecked.
But then conviniently again you have not answered any of the questions raised.
From your site it seems you are a scholar type of person, who has lots of knowldge, but to my fears when your theory with little plus minus is barrowed from Jews and atheists like EmmaGOLD man, Bakunin than i have lot of questions in my mind. It is not that Jews and atheists cannot present excellent theories, infact they have many but the problem is when you attach the name of Islam and Quran to it, Hope you have understood me.
Thanks for your patience. -
The fourth and final part of the Islamic society.
Poly-centric Community.
Community can not be created by a group of strangers, by its very nature community demands 'common unity', in the modern industrialised world they have just the fiction of community, a word with little meaning or connection to reality.
6116 (People will confront you with what the majority is doing.) Now if
you pay heed to, or get intimidated by majority of those who live on
earth, they will lead you astray from God?s way. Most of the people
follow nothing but conjecture and they only live by guesswork.(QXP)Throughout a great portion of recorded history humanity has suffered under a system of isolation, where the individual perceives themselves to have little or no power. The state and religion control and dictate upon them and the general population.
Religion utterly rejects methodology in favour of dogmatic conclusion, Islam rejects all religions in favour of methodology, it is this methodology I wish to understand and explore.
The sovereign system could be viewed as a scalar network, each individual has a minimum value, and this value can not change, no matter the actions of the individual in the view of the governing system; it demonstrates an expansion of population within an isolated minimum value. The subjugated minds of the population are easily pacified with illusions of equality, illusions of opportunity, illusions of identity, and illusions of ownership through taxation. Just as religion pacifies them with illusions salvation, illusions of resolution, illusions of justice and illusions of sanctity.
This results in a system that has no true value for the individual, it values property, wealth, and land as having a higher value than human life, the most extreme example of this dehumanisation of the individual, would be manifest through the communist model, where the state has total power, dominating each individual.
Within this model government, usury, legislation, sovereignty, corporations, states, and political power are not required.
Political power defined as 'the threat of overwhelming force against the legally disarmed.'
In contrast to this the Islamic structure could be viewed as a none scalar network.
Within this social structure the individual is viewed as all powerful, so in the control of their own actions and desires, each individual can increase their perceived value, and no governing system can control and dictate upon them beyond common law, also known as universal law (not legislation).
This results in a system that has no true value for property, wealth or land, but an exceedingly high value for a human life, human health, human comfort, human development, human advancement and the fulfilling of each individuals full potential.
The limiting factors upon the individual is within the dynamics of the local community they exist within, for example if only a single isolated community existed, surround by a corporate model social structure, the opportunities for the individual would be limited, but the greater the number of communities, the more opportunity would be opened.
As a non-scalar community, no outside government could be in control of the community, as it is self governing, self sustaining at a base level, it generates its own wealth and exists symbiotically with the communities around it, interacting in every facet of life, and ultimately it would be self replicating.
A centralised regional 'Hub', comprising of many self governing communities circling it, 'Nodes', would form a regional market, and allow regional community debate, and so the exchange of ideas in the development and improvements of the area. In this way each community would have easy and natural access to more than one hub.
Replication of nodes would be a natural expansion of the model, as the community grew larger, land allocation would set people further afield, so making them in effect a new node, which in turn would build out into a new hub. This also allows for natural diversity, as upon the basic foundations of the contract an infinite number of possible enviroments could be established.
Within any community there is of course no compulsion to stay, any member can leave or new members join as they wished.
All individuals making up the community would be held within a signed social contract, as established within common law, a constitution of minimum standards, these preventing the reintroduction of enslaving systems, this means individuals would consider the social contract, and at an age of maturity and mental competence, upon agreement, invest themselves to that social model, this would make them bond to follow the minimum boundaries of that society, upon a foundation of common law, defining the Islamic model as a contract would then be a vital aspect to begin any Islamic community.
As explained within the essay 'Common Law', if you are within a corporate society signed in through your birth certificate by your parents, you must first dissolve the contract to that society before establishing your new contract with the Islamic society.
In the recent past and at present, large and small communities are socially structured through a Jewish/Christian sovereign model, this leads to sovereign tribal wars, and the pyramid of sovereign extraction, draining the labour of the poor towards the elite. However within the Islamic model, no sovereign can exist, as only Allah can be sovereign, noting that not even the messenger Muhammad can be your sovereign, so rendering Hadith worthless. This restriction on the establishment of sovereigns means no sovereign can dominate and bully their subjected people into the theft of the property of their neighbours, or the murder, genocide, enslavement or subjugation of their neighbours.
Personal Freedoms.
The concept of personal freedom; no group can compel an individual to do anything against their will, the freedom of an individual to act as they see fit, if that action harms no one else (physically, mentally or socially), under common law, that action cannot be disputed, freedom of expression, freedom of belief, freedom of diversity (cultural, social, personal).
The concept of free education; free of outside influence and manipulations, free of dogma, free of biased views and deceptive facts, a right to be educated to the height of each individual?s abilities, in intellectual or physical disciplines. As we have been created for knowledge.
What is freedom, but the ability to act freely a state in which somebody is able to act, and live as they choose, without being subject to any undue restraints or restrictions. Being free is a responsibility, one that our forefathers failed to sustain, leaving us as economic slaves, restricted, conditioned and indoctrinated into a delusion of freedom, but a reality of conformity and constraint, continually escalating.
The elite attempt to redefine the understanding of freedom, convincing you freedom is action free from responsibility, they endeavour to excuse consequence, defer accountability to a third party, in truth freedom is the opposite of this, freedom is responsibility, you are fully responsible for your actions, accountable for the results of your actions and cannot escape the ultimate consequence of a lifetime of choices.
Freedom is making decisions under your own volition, not having to comply to the decisions of others, freedom is taking responsibility for your actions, not creating excuses to justify them, freedom is the power to control the fruits of your labour without the usurious dilution of your efforts, freedom is the right to feel safe, secure and confident within the community you live, freedom is the right to privacy for yourself and the people you interact with. Freedom is this and more; with true freedom you generate great responsibility, with indoctrinated social engineering you generate terrible slavery.
It cannot be a system of force but of choice, if people choose to live like swine, no amount of force will change that, it will only increase the depravity, freedom means responsibility, to live as a caliph of Allah?s guidance, is to live as a free, fearless, reasoning, lover of truth.
A Caliph.
Everyone of us is a potential caliph (potential only), meaning being a custodian of the Earth (because each generation succeeds the next, and so must leave the Earth in the same good condition they were given it, even improve its condition), meaning, they are responsible in conferring respect to the environment they exists within, as they are dependent upon this structure, capable of understanding the laws of nature, ultimately through this understand utilising them to their advantage, having them bow to their will; a servant of humanity, a protector of the innocent and vulnerable, a scholar and teacher, always honest by word and deed, selfless and generous; they are responsible to themselves and the people and animals around them, to demonstrate respect and concern for their welfare and edification.
Within the community at large each caliph is responsible for their own decisions, if they wish to establish 'Salat' (establishing a Qur'anic purpose) these decisions are then generated through the comprehension and unbiased understanding of the concepts guided within the Qur?an, free of any 'Hadith' (being unmitigated conjecture). Or if a communal decision, through community discussion, and implemented through a committee selected with specific talents or knowledge for the task under question, if the group requires a voice among many communities for large regional decisions, the caliph sent is simply the orator of their decisions, they may be viewed simply as the automaton that has inherited the message they express from the collective decision, which only morally binds those who accept any undertaking, while all decisions are accountable to common law.
It maybe said there is not enough land to apply this model, but if you look at land use in the UK, being a very densely populated land mass, the population only use 3% of the land area, the rest is held by the sovereigns, there truly is no shortage of land for community use anywhere on earth.
This structure of community is not democracy, for example, if there are 100 people and a park is suggested to the group, the idea is explained and a location suggested, the group firstly establish there is not conflict to the idea, the proponent of the idea then asks the 100 people who would like to contribute to the venture, only those individuals who wish to contribute, actually do contribute, no imposed burden is enforced upon the group at large.
Taxation.
To tax (from the Latin 'taxo' meaning 'I estimate'
After introducing tax
1.The price received by the seller is less than the cost to the buyer. This means that fewer trades occur and that the individuals or businesses involved gain less from participating in the market. This destroys value, and is known as the 'dead weight cost of taxation'.
2.Imposed overhead costs - accounts, records and receipts. Internal and external accounting, invasive oversight of government, and the use of intimidation both financial and physical by the state, requiring administration and infrastructure.
3.Tax burden increases, indirect and direct taxation feeds the loan repayments to the bankers, who print money for the cost of printing and lend it to the government at interest, halving the value of savings and doubling the cost of goods every ten years on average.
4.Services supplied in justification for the taxation reduce and degenerate the longer the system runs due to the ever increasing demands of the interest payments to the bankers for the fictitious loan repayments.
George Mason University, stated "Government income redistribution programs produce the same result as theft. In fact, that's what a thief does; he redistributes income. The difference between government and thievery is mostly a matter of legality."
Taxation is the ultimate form of usury or 'Riba', as it is termed in Arabic, as an determinate foundation absolutely no form of taxation can be inflicted upon the population. This can not be stressed strongly enough, all and every tax is a crime against the individual, without exception, it is not required and works in a counterproductive way, it reduces services and increases costs, as is demonstrated historically.
Usury.
(Usury the premeditated theft of the fruits of somebody labour.)
The strict prohibition of Usury, being; the premeditated theft of the fruits of someone labour, this concept must be comprehensively understand as a common knowledge, so the misery of usury will not be manifest again, and for this purpose the methods employed to install and establish these vile practices upon individuals must be well known.
Public services.
How do we fund public services beyond charitable donation from the local community?
There are four sections to public services
Public services of a utilitarian nature, such as refuse removal and street cleaning, water purification and sewage treatment, public roads, energy (if free energy systems have not been established) etc. would be paid for as utilized.
Public services of an essential nature such as, common law enforcement, fire brigade, street lighting, schools, colleges, universities, hospitals, doctors, dentists, etc. would be paid for through charitable donations.
Public services of a communal nature such as, public buildings, parks, historic buildings, museums, public performances, etc. combination of donations, trade and minimal fees if a short fall occurs.
Public liabilities, obligatory to protect the innocent, orphans, widows, those in need, through charitable donations.
This system would produce a surplus as was demonstrated within the USA before 1913, when no taxation was established and the government had a surplus solely from charitable donations.
A system based on community not on profit, would function at a small fraction of the costs incurred through a usurious system, the burden of basic existence would become small, and the time to explore and expand the self would be opened.
Abandon slavery.
Many concepts must be abandoned
1.No nations, only unity, a single species.
2.No borders, we inhabit a single planet.
3.No sovereign government, only submission to the concepts and direction of true personal freedom, under common law, as presented within the Deen of the Qur?an.
4.No usury, only honest trade.
5.No inequality, every human being is unique, gifted and able to expand their consciousness, and must be given opportunity to develop their abilities and personalities, and build knowledge of the correct understanding of existence and truth, free of religions, beyond personal delusion, as there is no compulsion.
6.No royalties, no copy right, no money lending at interest, no gambling (stock market, futures market, commodities market, pensions, insurance, etc.), no income tax, no sales tax (VAT), no rates payments, no levy on energy.
7.No buy and sell of what you can not own, meaning land and natural resources, only the labour invested within them.
8.No letting property private or commercial (beyond unintentional acquisition, short term)
9.No poison the environment and food chain with chemical additives within the human food chain, no genetically modified food products.
10.No monopolies of any sort, allowing propaganda to misguide the population.
11.No corporations or legislation.
War.
Instigation of war for the individual is impossible, that would be assault or murder, only through the subjugation of a population can an individual establish a war.
However if you have a situation whereby an outside state attacks a community of individuals, then it would be a defensive war, and in this way the individual would be at war.
The most powerful defence against an invading force is unity, states thrive on violence and exploitation, individuals on community and unity.
To stand united is the best defence, offer no aid to the enemy, no collaboration of any sort, join together with all communities to defend your lives, prevent the extraction of the resources of the region under attack by the invading state, war is expensive, theft and subjugation are the rewards they wish to gain.
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Totally against the system of Allah decieving people with fancy words and theories.
AbdunnurTaxation is the ultimate form of usury or 'Riba', as it is termed in Arabic, as an determinate foundation absolutely no form of taxation can be inflicted upon the population. This can not be stressed strongly enough, all and every tax is a crime against the individual, without exception, it is not required and works in a counterproductive way, it reduces services and increases costs, as is demonstrated historically.
You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.
Under Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic IPA ; Ottoman Turkish cizye; both derived from Pahlavi and ultimately from Aramaic gaziyat is a per capita tax levied on a section of an Islamic state's non-Muslim citizens, who meet certain criteria.
The verse above not only makes clear the establishment of a state with an autoratative figure but also leives TAX. -
Abdun nur
1.No nations, only unity, a single species.
Further deciet
Quran says this
O mankind, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes...If Allah made us in to nations than offcourse he knows better than Emma Gold man.
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Salaam Raaajah,
all taxation is Riba by its very nature, and the only thing Allah is at war with is Riba, you wage war with Allah, I will not stand in the way, enjoy yourself.
Again Allah can be the only sovereign categorically, you wish to inflict the misery of slavery upon your fellow man, are you certain you have read the Qur'an?
You think a nation or tribe dictates a slave race, held in bondage to a sovereign state?
I have posted these Islamic models to help people understand that you do not have to follow the insane religious dogma and confusions of religion, the ones you are propagating, and if any sane Muslims wish to add and improve upon the models I have presented they are more than welcome, however it seems you Raaajah are beyond help.