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  4. 'Gender Jihad' in the Service of Women's Right

'Gender Jihad' in the Service of Women's Right

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    Leyna
    wrote on last edited by
    #41

    What do you think is it better to marry or have an illicit relationship? just a question?

    offtopic

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      Leyna
      wrote on last edited by
      #42

      I agree with everything you said, except the words I have underlined. As you know, men and women are different. Most men are physically stronger than women. So we can say that men are superior when it comes to physical strenght. And most women are physically more beautiful than men. So we can say that women are superior when it comes to physical beauty.

      peace

      Yes, David, but that is irrelevant in the context of what we have been discussing. I think it goes without saying that men and women are different. We all know that men, in general, have more muscle mass and are usually physically stronger because of that. We know that men's and women's brains function slightly differently, that we tend to perceive pain differently and so on.

      But that doesn't play a role when it comes to discussing if one gender is better suited for being the decision maker than the other. I am sure you will agree that physical strength or beauty, for example, are entirely irrelevant in that regard. (If they were, most of the world's political leaders would have to retire, btw. ;D) There are other abilities that play a role here, and those are not determined by gender. There is no moral, intellectual, or spiritual superiority of one gender over the other. Thus my point that it is utter nonsense to claim that men should always be the ones in charge just because they have a different set of chromosomes.

      We recently talked about the queen of Sheba in another thread. In her story, God gives us a good example of a person with leadership qualities. She is intelligent, just, spiritual, intuitive, respected by even the most powerful among her people and so on. I don't think God tells us this story without a reason; and I certainly don't think he would mention a woman posessing excellent leadership qualities if he had only created men with those qualities.

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        unknownuser
        wrote on last edited by
        #43

        But that doesn't play a role when it comes to discussing if one gender is better suited for being the decision maker than the other. I am sure you will agree that physical strength or beauty, for example, are entirely irrelevant in that regard. (If they were, most of the world's political leaders would have to retire, btw. ;D) There are other abilities that play a role here, and those are not determined by gender. There is no moral, intellectual, or spiritual superiority of one gender over the other. Thus my point that it is utter nonsense to claim that men should always be the ones in charge just because they have a different set of chromosomes.

        Everything you say above is reasonable. And I agree with everything you say. No verse in the quran tells us that men are better decision makers in a relationship than women. In a marriage/relationship, the man should not be a leader and the woman a follower. The man should not be a prince and the women a servant. In the marriage/relationship, both partners should decide, and cooperate. The man and the woman should be like a prince and a princess. They should both be leaders. Leaders in charge of different tasks if you will. They should have the same rights, and same oppurtunities. And you are right, there is no moral, intellectual or spiritual superiority of one gender over the other. Superiority/value, is only based on righteousness

        Quran 4913
        O people, We created you from a male and female, and We made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Surely, the most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is Knowledgeable, Expert.

        No verse in the Quran tells us that men are the leaders of women. The Quran tells us that a husband and wife are garments for eachother. It does not tell us that only a husband is a garment for his wife or that only a wife is a garment for her husband. The Quran tells us that both men and women are garments for eachother. And the Quran tells us that both men and women should cooperate with eachother in one verse.

        We recently talked about the queen of Sheba in another thread. In her story, God gives us a good example of a person with leadership qualities. She is intelligent, just, spiritual, intuitive, respected by even the most powerful among her people and so on. I don't think God tells us this story without a reason; and I certainly don't think he would mention a woman posessing excellent leadership qualities if he had only created men with those qualities.

        I also, don't think God tells us this story without a reason. In this story, the Queen and her people are prostrating to the sun instead of God, and doing works that were not good. And they are critisized for these things

        Quran 2724
        And I found her and her people prostrating to the sun instead of God! And the devil had made their works appear good to them, so he kept them away from the path, for they are not being guided.

        Quran 2725
        Will they not prostrate to God who brings out what is hidden in the heavens and the earth, and He knows what you hide and what you declare?

        No verse in this story critisize or condemn her leadership. Only her beliefs and the beliefs of her people are critisized. The reason why this story is in the Quran, might be to show us that a woman can be a leader. As we know, she submitted to God (see 2744). And there is no mention of her submission not being accepted by God. And from my understanding of the Quran, she is accepted as a muslim. And if my understanding is right, this means that she was accepted even dough she was a Queen, a leader. Further, the Quran does not say that she is no longer a leader after her submission. What happened after she submitted to God? Was she still a queen? We don't know. Anyway, i think it is an interesting story, and it teaches us important lessons.

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          Leyna
          wrote on last edited by
          #44

          Thanks, David. I like the point you made about the garments, I have often thought about this phrase as well. It's not only very nice, but also, I believe, important to keep in mind when thinking about the husband / wife relationship according to the Qur'an. Personally, I believe that this phrase per default rules out any authority of one person or the other. You can never feel secure with a person who does not respect and treat you as an equal, who has legal authority over you.

          We know from experience that people who have the legal authority over another person all too often abuse this authority. I don't think more justice and love and a feeling of protection can be achieved when one person's happiness is made dependant on the mercy of another person.

          That, btw., is exactly what traditional scholars often tell us ? that the wife is basically at the husband's mercy. That one of the most important things for a wife is to make sure her husband is always pleased with her, because then, and only then will she get into paradise. They try to keep women on a constant hunt for paradise points hassanat, and when they elaborate on that, it becomes not only bizarre but also a bit frightening. Just google for something like "how to be a good Muslim wife" / "how to please your husband" etc., and you'll come up with lots of texts telling women how to behave as a wife.

          She always has to obey him, and she always has to be willing to have sex with him, because it's her duty to please him as much as possible and "keep him from looking at other women". Also, if she does not respond to his each and every call to bed the angels will curse her, and according to some scholars her husband even has the right to beat her or forfeit her maintenance! Some even claim that a woman's prayer will not be accepted by God as long as her husband is angry with her.
          hypno
          When they have an argument, she should say "I'm sorry, darling", even if he is the one who's wrong. When he comes home from the hard and exhausting fight for survival, i.e. the office, she should make sure she is showered, perfumed nicely dressed and made-up, a healthy home-cooked dinner and bathed, well-behaved kids waiting for him. Never should she bother him with her day's problems, after all taking care of a few small children and managing a house is a walk in the park compared to an eight hours day at the office, right?

          They keep reminding us that supposedly the prophet said that no woman gets into paradise if her husband is not pleased with her when she dies. They tell us that according to another narration he said that a woman is barely qualified to wipe the dust from her husband's shoes with her face. They tell us, rather incredibly, that if God had wanted a human being to prostrate to another human being, he would have commanded woman to prostrate to man. And that we should strive harder than the men because the prophet said that the majority of the people in hell are women and that we are lacking in intelligence, reason and religious commitment.
          &
          Having read stuff like that for years, I've really been wondering how so many Muslims, among them the authors of those texts, have the nerve to be proud of the fact that there is no original sin in Islam and that Islam is "the first and only religion to bring women justice and important rights". Because when reading all this crap, it sounds as if being born a woman is not really such a great thing if you're a Muslim.

          Obedience is always the key factor in those people's allegations. They do their utmost to keep ensured that men have authority over women, in the private as well as in the public sphere, not to mention the religious one. They keep brainwashing women that obedience to the husband is an essential part of the faith. According to many scholars, the husband has the right to force his wife to wear hijab, to prohibit her from working, even from leaving the house. According to most of them, he has the right to hit her if she insists on being "disobedient".
          wow
          None of this has anything to do with religion, or with serious relationship advice. It's the usual mysogynist babble from patriarchal men who don't want to let go of their privileges. For them it is really important to make sure that men and women NEVER have equal legal rights. That's also one of the reasons they love to bitch about democratic countries, and particularly about the bad, bad feminists. Because those refuse to accept that all this nonsense is a divinely ordained order and, may God forbid, they might tempt others to start reflecting and doing the same.

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            Leyna
            wrote on last edited by
            #45

            imagine the drama if leyna was married to raaajah!! elektro what a juicy movie material laugh

            http//foolstown.com/sm/wan.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/duel.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/kuli.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/hit.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/fol.gif

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              Raaajah
              wrote on last edited by
              #46

              David-K

              No verse in the quran tells us that men are better decision makers in a relationship than women.

              You have gone so far in your quest to please the feminists, brother can't you read the following clear verses, which tells us in open words that women are the one who can be biased and err at the time of pressure, therefore Men are better decision makers..

              O you who believe, when you transact a loan for any period, you shall write it down. An impartial scribe shall do the writing. No scribe shall refuse to perform this service, according to GOD's teachings. He shall write, while the debtor dictates the terms. He shall observe GOD his Lord and never cheat. If the debtor is mentally incapable, or helpless, or cannot dictate, his guardian shall dictate equitably. Two men shall serve as witnesses; if not two men, then a man and two women whose testimony is acceptable to all. Thus, if one woman becomes biased/errs, the other will remind her. It is the obligation of the witnesses to testify when called upon to do so. Do not tire of writing the details, no matter how long, including the time of repayment. This is equitable in the sight of GOD, assures better witnessing, and eliminates any doubts you may have. Business transactions that you execute on the spot need not be recorded, but have them witnessed. No scribe or witness shall be harmed on account of his services. If you harm them, it would be wickedness on your part. You shall observe GOD, and GOD will teach you. GOD is Omniscient.

              David-K you said you agree that we should obey our parents, so what if the Father of Princess tells her to be in Hijaab?

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                Ayisha
                wrote on last edited by
                #47

                Ayisha
                You want to take away even this freedom from MEN, but for yourself you want all the freedom,,, Sad -X
                LOL you even think this is your God given freedom? that is sad!

                Well Ayisha, when your signature is longer than your post it does not look nice at all.
                and?

                and yes, what I said was just reply to Princess's post, don't take it serious and be fast to label me for misusing the verse.
                misusing the verse? then you come back with this as being a God given freedom for men now you say dont take it serious?

                What do you think is it better to marry or have an illicit relationship? just a question?

                What a stupid question and can only come from a man brainwashed into thinking God gave him right to marry 4 just because hes a man without even looking at the rest of the verse or those after it.

                I think it is better for a man to marry and REMAIN FAITHFUL TO HIS WIFE and not use the excuse he can have 4 because 'God said' to justify his incapabilities and his LUST.

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                  Leyna
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #48

                  can't you read the following clear verses, which tells us in open words that Men are better decision makers..

                  http//foolstown.com/sm/fly2.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/fly2.gif http//foolstown.com/sm/fly2.gif

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                    Raaajah
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #49

                    Ayisha

                    What a stupid question and can only come from a man brainwashed into thinking God gave him right to marry 4 just because hes a man without even looking at the rest of the verse or those after it.

                    No, it is not a stupid question, for at least some one who thinks, its fine to be nude in front of family, offcourse she is just too broad minded for this type of question.
                    Allah, no where in Quran has stopped me to marry more than one,
                    Men have longer sex life expectancy, study says,
                    Men are more likely than women to be interested in sex, have sex and enjoy sex, according to new scientific research, which also found people who stay active and healthy enjoy longer sex lives.
                    Research by University of Chicago academics published online Wednesday in the British Medical Journal found that, across all age groups, men were more interested in sex than women ? and the gap increased with age

                    And Offcourse Allah is more wiser than you feminists, who allowed to marry more than one.

                    Ayisha

                    I think it is better for a man to marry and REMAIN FAITHFUL TO HIS WIFE and not use the excuse he can have 4 because 'God said' to justify his incapabilities and his LUST
                    .
                    By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females.
                    During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.
                    In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

                    So what will happen to them, if I am restricted to just ONE, please think about it sympathetically dear Ayisha

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                      Leyna
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #50

                      for at least some one who thinks, its fine to be nude in front of family

                      Ah, finally back to your favourite subject. http//www.imagebanana.com/img/wg5lygwz/00008242.gif

                      Allah, no where in Quran has stopped me to marry more than one

                      Seems like it's you who needs to do some reading and pondering.

                      Anyway, this thread is about Islamic feminism, not about polygamy. If you want to discuss polygamy, or nudity, or women in bikinis, I suggest you do so in one of the relevant threads. Thanks!

                      In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

                      So what will happen to them, if I am restricted to just ONE, please think about it sympathetically dear Ayisha

                      Nicely copied from Dr. Zakir Naik. )

                      But again ? this thread is not about polygamy. Also, Dr. Naiks utterly nonsensical statements regarding polygamy and the world population have been addressed here. If you feel you have anything of value to add to that discussion, please do so, but kindly stick to the subject of the thread in this one.

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                        unknownuser
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #51

                        "Some women choose to follow men and some choose to follow their dreams."http//foolstown.com/sm/fly2.gif Lady Gaga http//foolstown.com/sm/fly2.gif

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                          Leyna
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #52

                          Ah, finally back to your favourite subject. http//www.imagebanana.com/img/wg5lygwz/00008242.gif

                          Seems like it's you who needs to do some reading and pondering.

                          Anyway, this thread is about Islamic feminism, not about polygamy. If you want to discuss polygamy, or nudity, or women in bikinis, I suggest you do so in one of the relevant threads. Thanks!

                          Nicely copied from Dr. Zakir Naik.

                          But again ? this thread is not about polygamy. Also, Dr. Naik's utterly nonsensical statements regarding polygamy and the world population have been addressed here. If you feel you have anything of value to add to that discussion, please do so, but kindly stick to the subject of the thread in this one.

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                            Raaajah
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #53

                            Leyna

                            Anyway, this thread is about Islamic feminism, not about polygamy. If you want to discuss polygamy, or nudity, or women in bikinis, I suggest you do so in one of the relevant threads. Thanks!

                            Islamic Feminism rotfl rotfl

                            Where ever there are women, all the above topics are there..

                            Who doesnot know Dr. Zakir? Zakir along with other Alims I have quoted have much much better approach towards Islamic and Quranic understanding, not taking Quran and Islam with point of view of feminists only.
                            Comparing Dr. Zakir, Javed Ahmed Ghamidi, Maluana Maudidi, with Amina Wadud, and Tasleema Nasreen laugh, just because they represent your thoughts is bear able, but calling all those three NON SENSE...., hail to you.

                            Some time I think many here at this forum are classic example of Wahabi's school of thouight, so rigid, so stubborn, so arrogant and still ignorant on many issues.

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                              Raaajah
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #54

                              The Life of Zakir, Maluana Maudidi, and Javed Ahmed Ghamidi can be read from numerous sources, but let us see our latest Imam, sorry I mean Imama Asra Nomani, Is she really a Scholar of Islam or just another frustrated women? who is not able to live within the boundaries announced by Allah, and yet is not powerful enough to Say NO to religon/deen, that would have been much easier. I would have not discussed her life but life which you spend is the real inner of you and words they can be quoted wit sugar or salt as you wish, when some one brings the interviews of Asra or Tasleema on ISlamic issues and thinks they are some authority on it, he or she makes her/himself a laughing stock.

                              The name of her kid is Shibli Daneel Nomani, named after the famous Jewish journalist spying in Pakistan for Mosad.
                              She has been divorced, as of my experience, it is very difficult to spend life with a Feminist, it is really near to impossible.
                              On the title page of her book "Standing alone in Mecca..." she is covering her head, Is this Hypocrisy?
                              When the mix gender prayer was arranged, she was covering her head, Why? Does she act as what she says.
                              In her one of the interviews she said when she was young she was not allowed to date?
                              Her Kid is another issue, her husband has not owned him.

                              Therefore she is frustrated woman, who does not want to reform Islam, infact she knows nothing about, but wants to change it according to her wishes.

                              Acceptance of sex outside of marriage and acceptance of homosexuality are beyond the bounds of Islam not to mention Judaism and traditional Christianity, or any other religon for that matter. Which they strongly advocate.

                              From her website ?My search for Tantra, sex, and love began with a gnarly foot wash in a forest of pine trees in the Canadian countryside.

                              I washed the scaly feet of a lanky stranger, cloaking them with soft soap suds and warm water. We sat on the porch outside a sprawling log house, the sun draping itself over us like the gentle touch of a velvet glove. The scent of home cooking wafted toward us from the kitchen inside and mingled with the lavender smell of the soap that I caressed on the bottom of this stranger?s feet. I massaged each toe separately, stretching them under my fingers, pressing my thumb into the small dip where his ankle began. As I slid my hands underneath, he flinched. My touch tickled him. He giggled. I smiled politely and averted my gaze.?

                              Now if you want the innocent Muslim women to follow this example than, it is not Zakir who is Non sense, it clearly is YOU.

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                                Leyna
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #55

                                In Quest for Equal Rights, Muslim Women's Meeting Turns to Islam's Tenets

                                by Sabrina Tavernese

                                KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia ? The religious order banning women from dressing like tomboys was bad enough. But the fatwa by this country?s leading clerics against yoga was the last straw.

                                ?They have never even done yoga,? said Zainah Anwar, a founder of a Malaysian women?s rights group called Sisters in Islam.

                                Ms. Anwar argues that the edict, issued late last year by the National Fatwa Council of Malaysia, is pure patriarchy. Islam, she says, is only a cover.

                                It was frustrations like those that drew several hundred Muslim women to a conference in this Muslim-majority country over the weekend. Their mission was to come up with ways to demand equal rights for women. And their tools, however unlikely, were the tenets of Islam itself.

                                ?Secular feminism has fulfilled its historical role, but it has nothing more to give us,? said Ziba Mir-Hosseini, an Iranian anthropologist who has been helping to formulate some of the arguments. ?The challenge we face now is theological.?

                                The advocates came from 47 countries to participate in the project, called Musawah, the Arabic word for equality. They spent the weekend brainstorming and learning the best Islamic arguments to take back to their own societies as defenses against clerics who insist that women?s lives are dictated by men?s strict interpretations of Islam.

                                ?We are trying to develop a new language, offer it to the world and use it,? said Marwa Sharafeldin, an activist from Egypt.

                                Ms. Anwar, the main organizer, said her group was almost alone when she started it 20 years ago, but now it is one of many. ?It?s a movement whose time has come.?

                                The repression comes not from the Koran, the women argue, but from the human interpretation of it, in the form of Islamic law, which has ossified over the centuries while their globalized lives have galloped ahead. So they are going back to the original text, arguing that its emphasis on justice makes the case for equality.

                                ?Feminist Islamic scholarship is trying to unearth the facts that were there,? Ms. Mir-Hosseini told a room of eager activists Sunday. ?We can?t be afraid to look at legal tradition critically.?

                                She referred to the work of Muslim intellectuals, like Nasr Abu Zayd of Egypt and Abdolkarim Soroush of Iran, reformers who argue that the Koran must be read in a historical context, and that laws derived from it can change with the times. Their ideas are controversial, and both are in exile in the West.

                                Ms. Mir-Hosseini argues that Muslim societies are trapped in a battle between two visions of Islam one legalistic and absolutist that emphasizes the past; the other pluralistic and more inclined toward democracy. She said that in Iran reformers were gaining ground, but that President Bush?s antagonism toward the country ended up strengthening hard-liners there.

                                ?It?s really a struggle between two world views,? she said, adding that time was on the side of the women.

                                It was the rise of political Islam that brought the women together. As Malaysia?s progressive family laws began to be rolled back in the late 1980s, Ms. Anwar and several other women formed a Koran reading group.

                                ?There is an understanding that mullahs know best, that you cannot speak,? Ms. Anwar said. ?Muslim women?s groups are coming out to challenge that authority.?

                                Some scholars argued that the effort sounded unrealistic and would have no impact, mainly because it appeared to ignore more than a thousand years of Islamic legal scholarship and practice. Religious authorities are the only ones with the power to interpret laws, and circumventing that well-entrenched system would require replacing it altogether.

                                ?This kind of argument is being made at the margins of the Islamic world,? said Bernard Haykel, an expert on Islamic law at Princeton University. ?It has shape and form, but no substantive content. There?s no real way of actually bringing about these changes.?

                                But others made the case that change, though incremental, was happening at the grass-roots level in a number of Muslim societies. Isobel Coleman, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, who attended the conference, argues that women?s movements are making progress, as girls? education levels increase and the Western world is a click away on satellite television. Women are even taking positions in religious institutions, she said a woman has headed the Shariah College at Qatar University.

                                ?It?s a slow shift,? said Ms. Coleman, whose book on the topic, ?Paradise Beneath Her Feet Women and Reform in the Middle East,? is to be published by Random House in 2010. ?It?s just beginning to come together as a movement.?

                                There have been some successes. In Morocco, sweeping changes of family law in favor of women went into effect in 2004. Critics argued that it was possible only because the country?s king approved it, but Moroccan activists said it never would have happened if they had not spent years lobbying and formulating legal arguments, some of them based on Islamic tenets.

                                That has had ripple effects. Elaheh Koolaee, a professor from the University of Tehran who formerly served in Iran?s Parliament, said that Iranian women had been watching the Moroccan example and that a Muslim success was an invaluable tool. ?It?s important for us to show positive experiences from within Muslim societies that are not from the U.S. or Europe,? she said.

                                Ms. Mir-Hosseini said she believed that change was coming, and that it was just a matter of when.
                                ?There?s so much tension and energy there now,? she said. ?It will be a flood.?

                                From The New York Times, February 16, 2009

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                                  Leyna
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #56

                                  The Life of Zakir, Maluana Maudidi, and Javed Ahmed Ghamidi can be read from numerous sources, but let us see our latest Imam, sorry I mean Imama Asra Nomani, Is she really a Scholar of Islam or just another frustrated women?

                                  Therefore she is frustrated woman, who does not want to reform Islam, infact she knows nothing about, but wants to change it according to her wishes.

                                  Who doesnot know Dr. Zakir? Zakir along with other Alims I have quoted have much much better approach towards Islamic and Quranic understanding

                                  Zakir Naik is not an alim. He is a medical doctor. So your point about Asra Nomani not being a scholar is moot.

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                                    Raaajah
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #57

                                    There?s so much tension and energy there now,? she said. ?It will be a flood.?
                                    rotfl rotfl laugh yay rotfl

                                    Zakir Naik is not an alim.

                                    Yes he is a Student, but NOMANI rotfl...sex out side marriage rotfl
                                    flood rotfl

                                    Leyna you are one of a Kind.

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                                      Fahad1
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #58

                                      So fact is ? you keep saying that a woman has to be obedient to her husband. hypno

                                      Fact is you can't respond in the least to my arguments, so you are avoiding them.

                                      That's exactly what traditional scholars say. She has to obey him as long as he doesn't ask her to do anything that contradicts God's law.

                                      Like I care what they say.

                                      But why in the world should women be "obedient" to their husbands etc. in the first place? What does entitle husbands to that "obedience", and what should be its purpose?

                                      Men are not by default more intelligent, more experienced, educated, wiser and so on and so forth. They are not better at making decisions, they are not superior to women in any way. There is nothing that inherently comes with being a man that makes this person by default better at making decisions. There is nothing in the Qur'an which supports that women have to be obedient to their husbands by default.

                                      So why in the world should a mature grownup woman be "obedient" to another person, just because this person happens to be her husband? That does not make the slightest bit of sense, and it does not sound like a healthy, loving relationship between two mature adults.

                                      You are just avoiding my arguments.

                                      Actually, I can't believe I'm even discussing this.

                                      You are unable to discuss anything. You are not addressing my arguments.

                                      wow I have never met anyone in real life who believes in this bizarre stuff. And if I was going to get involved with a guy who told me such crap,

                                      The ?crap? was a very simple and straight forward question and an argument which you have not responded to.

                                      I wouldn't waste my time discussing this. I would laugh at him and show him the door ... no use trying to change the mindset of such a person.
                                      )

                                      Well then too bad this isn?t a "real life meeting".

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                                        Leyna
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #59

                                        Fact is you can't respond in the least to my arguments, so you are avoiding them.

                                        Which of your arguments would you like to be addressed?

                                        Fact is, you have so far refused to answer my question and give me a sensible explanation as to why women should obey men. I asked you repeatedly on the first page of this thread, but you keep ignoring it.

                                        The ?crap? was a very simple and straight forward question and an argument which you have not responded to.

                                        I wasn't referring to any question.

                                        What I called crap are the claims that men are by default more intelligent, more experienced, more educated, wiser etc. and thus women have to obey them. It has nothing to do with any of your questions or arguments.

                                        That should have become clear from the previous part of the post you quoted.

                                        Well then too bad this isn?t a "real life meeting".

                                        Actually, I'd be curious to know how you handle this issue in real life. If you're going to get engaged or married, are you going to tell the woman that she will have to accept you as an authority and be obedient to you? Are you going to sit down and discuss with her what "obedience" means to each of you? How do women react when you face them with such stuff in reality?

                                        hmm

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                                          Leyna
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #60

                                          Velvet Jihad?Muslim Women?s Quiet Resistance to Islamic Fundamentalism
                                          Author Faegheh Shirazi
                                          Publisher University of Florida Press, Gainesville
                                          Year 2009
                                          Pages 277
                                          ISBN 978-0-8130-3354-9

                                          Velvet Jihad?Muslim Women?s Quiet Resistance To Islamic Fundamentalism

                                          By Yoginder Sikand

                                          Central to Islamic scripturalist assertion, or ?Islamic fundamentalism? as it is often referred to, is the notion of the ideal Muslim woman, whose status, roles and functions are defined by rules and norms deriving from a narrow, restrictive and patriarchal reading of the Islamic scripturalist tradition.

                                          The ?ideal? Muslim woman in Islamic ?fundamentalist? discourse is defined as being submissive to male authority, while being modest and virtuous in a patriarchally-defined sense. She is to be carefully controlled and monitored, at all times, by patriarchal authority.

                                          The spread of Islamic ?fundamentalism? throughout Muslim communities has had seriously negative consequences for Muslim women?s rights and status. Not surprisingly, groups of Muslim women across the world have begun mobilizing against Islamic ?fundamentalism?, some on a secular basis, using secular human rights arguments, others, working within a broadly-defined Islamic tradition, employing Islamic arguments for achieving gender equality and challenging patriarchy and misogyny in the name of Islam.

                                          This fascinating book provides a general picture of the status and conditions of women in Muslim communities around the world faced with the challenge of Islamic scripturalist assertion. Shirazi admits that patriarchy is, of course, not a Muslim-specific phenomenon, but argues that the forms that it takes in Muslim communities and Muslim-majority countries makes it particularly problematic and difficult to oppose in that it is generally sought to be legitimised in the name of religion. Hence, challenging such patriarchy is a particularly arduous task as it is easily branded as a challenge to religion itself.

                                          The book catalogues a long list of hurdles and restrictions that millions of Muslim women across the world are subjected to in the name of Islam. These includes stern restrictions on their physical mobility, on their acquiring education, on taking up jobs of their choice, on selecting their spouses, on controlling their own bodies, on choosing their marriage partners, on deciding how to dress, and even on thinking for themselves. They are subjected to deeply patriarchal family laws in most Muslim countries, all legitimised in the name of Islam and enforced by the state, such as those that provide Muslim men the right to arbitrarily divorce their wives, to take additional wives at will without the permission of their existing spouses, to control almost completely the lives of their wives, and even, as in some countries, to take the law into their hands and beat their wives and even and kill them on grounds of infidelity.

                                          Shirazi shows how radical Islamists, mouthing slogans of religious and cultural ?authenticity? and calling for their brand of what they call ?shariah rule?, have sought to deny Muslim women a whole range of rights that are afforded to them in some countries, and to scrap progressive laws and replace them with a medieval, patriarchal code which they define as being based on the shariah or divine law. In addition, numerous cultural practices that heavily impinge on Muslim women?s lives that are widespread in certain Muslim communities and that sometimes derive from pre-Islamic practices?the most notorious of these being female genital mutilation and forced child marriages?are often sought to be projected as mandated by Islam. All in all, then, Shirazi very persuasively argues, Islamic ?fundamentalism?, combined with local forms of patriarchal culture, pose a major threat and challenge to the quest for equality and justice for Muslim women across the world, particularly the poor.

                                          With abysmal levels of education, and being economically heavily dependent on their men folk, it is not surprising that vast numbers of Muslim women simply have no choice but to accept their lot. Many, as Shirazi tells us, even accept this as mandated by Islam itself. Yet, Shirazi tells us there is what she colourfully calls a ?velvet jihad? astir in across numerous Muslim communities spearheaded by bold Muslim women who are now vocally and stridently challenging all forms of oppression in the name of Islam. She likens it to the ?velvet revolution?, a peaceful movement of resistance that brought down ?communist? dictatorships in eastern Europe in the late 1980s.

                                          What, then, are the means that assertive Muslim women (and there are many, as Shirazi documents) are today adopting to fight patriarchy and misogyny in the name of Islam?

                                          They fall into two broad categories. Some Muslim women, who may be defined as ?Muslim feminists?, are seeking to oppose patriarchal laws, rules and practices using modern human rights arguments, such as secularism, freedom, justice and democracy, linking up with reformers, both men and women, both within their communities and countries and at the international level, to highlight the oppression of women in the name of Islam. Shirazi describes numerous such Muslim women?s groups across the world which are using this approach, with varying degrees of success.

                                          This strategy might not, however, have much resonance with religious-minded Muslims, who could easily be made to be believe that such arguments for women?s rights are not just ?un-Islamic?, but, rather, represent, as it is often put, an ?anti-Islamic, Western conspiracy?. Indeed, that precisely is what Islamic conservatives and radicals never tire of arguing.

                                          A more culturally-rooted, and, therefore, for many practising Muslims, perhaps a more acceptable way of shaping demands for gender equality and of critiquing misogyny and patriarchy in the name of Islam, Shirazi points out, is represented by the phenomenon often labeled as ?Islamic feminism?.

                                          Not all the women (and men) who are engaged in articulating an Islamic feminist discourse and politics might, however, identify with that label, given the political and ideological baggage associated with the term ?feminism?. Be that as it may, Islamic feminism, Shirazi shows by drawing on empirical evidence from extensive fieldwork in Africa, Asia, Europe and America as well as a massive corpus of literature available on the Internet, is today a growing challenge to the authoritarian, deeply-patriarchal versions of Islam zealously upheld both Islamic conservatives and ?fundamentalists?, who, despite their differences, are almost unanimous on the ?women?s question?.

                                          Islamic feminism, as Shirazi describes it, seeks to recover what its proponents controversially argue is the ?true Islam?, one which is based on compassion, equality and justice for all?including, most crucially, women and non-Muslims. In this it forcefully challenges conservative and ?fundamentalist? versions of Islam that are premised on the subjugation and repression of women and non-Muslims, not withstanding the pious proclamations of their proponents to the contrary.

                                          Shirazi describes the various strategies advocates of Islamic feminism employ as they go about their task of seeking to dismantle patriarchy in the name of Islam. A major focus of their efforts is critiquing certain fiqh or juridical rules that harshly impinge on women that were developed by medieval jurists.

                                          Islamic feminists insists, contrary to what the ulema or Islamic clerics, and hardliner Islamists, argue, that these are a later development, a human invention, and not part of the shariah or divine law.

                                          They point out that these fiqh prescriptions were developed by a class of male clerics who were heavily influenced in their understanding of Islam by the feudal, patriarchal context of their times, and so cannot be said to consist of divinely-revealed edicts. They argue that fiqh must remain dynamic if Islam is to retain its relevance, and that Muslims must come up with new, gender-just fiqh perspectives to conform to the demands and needs of Muslim women today. They see themselves as taking the lead in this task, recovering the lost agency and legacy of Muslim women scholars who, in early Muslim history, played a crucial role in the field of Islamic scholarship.

                                          In dealing with the other principal sources of legislation and beliefs about women?the Quran and Hadith (statements about or attributed to the Prophet Muhammad)?Islamic feminists, as Shirazi shows through her analysis of a number of Islamic feminist texts?adopt a range of positions.

                                          In the face of certain Hadith reports that clearly militate against contemporary notions of gender equality and justice, some contend that the Quran is the only text that Muslims need to follow, and that, in any case, the corpus of Hadith is replete with fabricated traditions wrongly attributed to the Prophet by later Muslims simply in order to sanctify patriarchy and the subjugation of women. Hence, they argue, it is not reliable.

                                          Others argue that the seemingly patriarchal prescriptions contained in the Quran and the Hadith need to be viewed in the particular historical context of their revelation, in seventh century Arabia, and as relevant to that context but not as being binding and normative for all times. Yet others argue for distilling what they call the spirit of the Quran and focusing on core values that they discern in the text, such as compassion, justice and equality, rather than being bound by a strictly literalist understanding of the scripture.

                                          Citing the works?both literary as well as practical?of a vast number of Muslim women scholars and activists as they seek to counter patriarchy in the name of Islam, Shirazi concludes that their valiant efforts, derided and fiercely opposed by powerful patriarchal forces, truly herald the arrival of a ?velvet jihad?, one that can play a key role in not just championing Muslim women?s rights but also in fashioning more compassionate and just understandings of Islam while critiquing and standing up to violent, authoritarian, patriarchal mullahs and Islamists who claim to represent Islamic authenticity. That, in short, is what this inspiring book is all about.

                                          http//www.countercurrents.org/sikand240710.htm

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