Quran in need of hadith?
-
Peace all
Some people (particularly mainstream muslims) believe verses in the Quran need hadith for explanation. So this thread aims to challenge the thought. Share the verses and see if we can find the meaning to it.
Here are some
1587, 944, 2258some discussion on 1587 started on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11663.msg257481#msg257481
-
Here are some verses
Quran 4105
We have revealed to you the Book with the truth that you may judge between the people by that which God has shown you, and do not be an advocate for the treacherous.Quran 548
And We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, authenticating what is between your hands of the Book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and if God had willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.Quran 6114
Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you the Book fully detailed? Those to whom We have given the Book know it is sent down from your Lord with the truth; so do not be of those who have doubt. -
944 and 2258 seem pretty self-explanatory to me.
One thing I would add is that if a traditional commentator makes the claim of XYZ verse needs external sources such as traditional ahadith to explain it, they are on dangerous ground because it is an indisputable fact that there is huge variance/contradiction amongst traditional commentators on meaning of verses, so it is not like they have a coherent view.
Also, AQ does not strictly say answer is within AQ, it more correctly implies one should use Quranic methodology, which of course can involve utilising many things.
And lastly, this is assuming the extra info/explanation wanted by the commentator is actually worthwhile, not for example, the name of the person who debated with Abraham etc which is irrelevant.
-
Peace all
Some people (particularly mainstream muslims) believe verses in the Quran need hadith for explanation. So this thread aims to challenge the thought. Share the verses and see if we can find the meaning to it.
Here are some
1587, 944, 2258some discussion on 1587 started on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11663.msg257481#msg257481
In principle, there are several major problems when consulting the Hadith in order to "explain" the Qur'an. Aside from the fact that the Qur'an is the only word of God, explicity states no other references are required, and there have been (and remain) serious issues of authenticity and consistency with the Hadiths themselves (Hadiths prohibiting the composition of Hadiths, anyone?).And that many of them directly contradict the Qur'an.
The Qur'an explicity states that "miscreants" will not be able to understand it, and that it has used allegories and similies to baffle them. It states that it should be pondered upon, thought about, and contemplated. Running to the Hadiths to "explain" everything contradicts this; it decimates any need to think for onesself.
I was also thinking about Surah 2 v67-75, a perfect example of pedantically and pointlessly focusing on small details about something, and in doing so, needlessly making things over-complicated and difficult, especially when it is already known what is required. Again, as the Qur'an states, religion is not meant to be a burden.
Finally - and these are entirely my own thoughts - it occurs to me that the blessed Qur'an is deliberately structured and composed as a general framework to operate within, rather than a specific set of rules for this and that. The Qur'an is flexible and allows freedom to adapt while being a good Muslim, while the Hadiths do not; accusations of Islam remaining in the 7th Century largely seem to stem from the Hadiths, not the Qur'an.
-
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.3923 God has sent down the best narrative, a Book that is similar, dual. The skins of those who are concerned towards their Lord shiver from it, then their skins and their hearts soften up to the remembrance of God. Such is the guidance of God; He guides with it whoever He wills. And for whoever God misguides, then none can guide him.
316 And from the people, there are those who will purchase a baseless narrative with which to mislead from the path of God without knowledge, and to make it a mockery. These will have a humiliating retribution.
7185 Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that God has created? Perhaps their time is drawing near; so in which narrative after this one will they believe? 456 These are the revelations of God, We recite them to you with the truth. So, in which narrative after God and His revelations do they believe?
5234 Let them produce a narrative like this, if they are truthful.
6844 Therefore, let Me deal with those who reject this narrative; We will entice them from where they do not perceive.
7750 So in what narrative, after it, will they believe?6836 What is wrong with you, how do you judge?
6837 Or do you have a book which you study?
6838 In it, you can find what you wish?
6839 Or do you have an oath from Us, extending until the Day of Resurrection, that you can judge as you please?
6840 Ask them Who of them will make such a claim?
6841 Or do they have partners? Then let them bring their partners, if they are truthful.6940 This is the utterance of an honorable messenger.
6941 It is not the utterance of a poet; rarely do you believe.
6942 Nor the utterance of a soothsayer; rarely do you take heed.
6943 A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.
6944 And had he attributed anything falsely to Us.
6945 We would have seized him by the right.
6946 Then, We would have severed his life-line. 6947 None of you would be able to prevent it.655 And it is such that We explain the revelations, and point out the way of the criminals.
697 And He is the One who made for you the stars, to guide you by them in the darkness of the land and the sea. We have explained the signs to a people who know.
698 And He is the One who initiated you from one person; with a place for stability and development. We have explained the signs to a people who understand.732 Say Who has made unlawful the nice things that God has brought forth for His servants and the good provisions? Say They are meant for those who believe during this worldly life, and they will be exclusive for them on the Day of Resurrection. It is such that We explain the revelations for those who know.
7174 It is such that We explain the revelations, perhaps they will return.911 If they repent, and they hold the contact prayer, and they contribute towards purification, then they are your brothers in the system. We explain the revelations for a people who know.
599 The messenger is only to deliver. And God knows what you reveal and what you conceal.
1340 And if We show you some of what We promise them, or We terminate your life, then you are only to deliver while for Us is the reckoning.
1682 So if they turn away, then you are only required to deliver clearly.
2454 Say Obey God, and obey the messenger. But if they turn away, then he is only responsible for his obligation, and you are responsible for your obligations. And if you obey him, you will be guided. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
2918 And if you disbelieve, then nations before you have also disbelieved. The messenger is only required to deliver clearly.
3617 And we are only required to give a clear delivery.
4248 But if they turn away, then We did not send you as their guardian. You are only required to deliver. And when We let man taste a mercy from Us, he becomes happy with it; and when adversity afflicts them for what their hands have delivered, then man becomes rejecting!
6412 Obey God and obey the messenger. And if you turn away, then it is only required of Our messenger to deliver clearly.The sunnis will say that sahih hadeeth by Bukhary and Muslim and all thsoe others are how prophet/messenger Muhammad was an example to the people. Well
604 There has been a good example set for you by Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people We are innocent from you and what you serve besides God. We have rejected you, and it appears that there shall be animosity and hatred between us and you until you believe in God alone. Except for the saying of Abraham to his father I will ask forgiveness for you, but I do not possess any power to protect you from God. Our Lord, we have put our trust in You, and we turn to You, and to You is the final destiny.Peace be upon you.
-
Peace All
Khalil
The issue isnt about consulting hadiths to understand Quran, many of us know there are hadiths which are contradictory. The focus of this thread is about understanding verses which may be percieved as perculiar/lacking. So the possible conclusions and why (how you go about it)
Alen
Thanks but for the purpose of this thread, those verses aren?t necessaryWakas
lastly, this is assuming the extra info/explanation wanted by the commentator is actually worthwhile, not for example, the name of the person who debated with Abraham etc which is irrelevant.
Agreed
I?ll get back to this thread when i have more time
Peace
-
Peace all
Some people (particularly mainstream muslims) believe verses in the Quran need hadith for explanation. So this thread aims to challenge the thought. Share the verses and see if we can find the meaning to it.
Here are some
1587, 944, 2258some discussion on 1587 started on this thread http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11663.msg257481#msg257481
-
Salaam Sarah Y
944 Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting with their goods and persons. And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty
I had to read the verses before in order to understand 944 better, the verses before basically say that if those who follow the path only do so because they see the fight before them to be an easy win and the journey to undertake to be short, then they are not true in their belief. Therefore 944 is saying that a true believer would not give up, would not think of their own wealth, or be scared to lose their own life in the fight for God. They would, unlike the non-believers, volounteer to stand in the front row of the fight.
That is my understanding of 944
2258 Hast thou not turned thy thought to one who disputed with Abraham about his Lord because Allah had granted him power? Abraham said "My Lord is He Who giveth life and death." He said "I give life and death." Said Abraham "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the East do thou then cause him to rise from the West?" Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah give guidance to a people unjust.
Perhaps my interpretation is too simple for most folks on this forum, but to me this verse says "Just because God has given you power/authority over other people doesnt make you God."
Whattya think?
-
Alen
Thanks but for the purpose of this thread, those verses aren?t necessaryPeace
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.The verses I quoted tell sunnis that Qur'an is not in need of any other hadeeth, sicne it is The Best Hadeeth (3923),
God knows best.Peace.
-
Salaam
I see it just as clear as you and everyone here that there is no doubt wether to use Hadiths or not, but for our mislead brothers and sisters out there it is not so easy. We can show them hard evidence what it says in the Quran, but they don't believe us, we can show them the faults in their science of Hadiths, but they don't believe us. It's like brickwall, right?
I think Sarah Y makes a really good point. What do "they" use to prove to us that we are wrong? Well, for one thing, they say "How can you interpret this and that verse without Hadith?". I have certainly been confronted like that, and I must tell you, sometimes I stumble. To meet this kind of confrontation we do not need evidence that Hadiths are a bad source of information. Instead, we need to show that it is possible to NOT use Hadith.... I really really welcome this kind of forum where we can talk about the meaning of tricky verses instead of proving over and over again that Hadiths are no good.
Anyone dare?
Sarah Y, you asked the question, what do you think?
Wakas, you seem to be a pretty smart guy. Instead of writing that verses 944 and 2258 are self-explanatory to you, why don't you tell us instead why they are? -
Emil
This verse has been a great help in such discussionsQuran 37 Shakir
He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding. -
Hej Captain
Yeah, really excellent verse, that one, use it many ways to explain how I can interpret more "freely" than those who are bound to Hadith.
But sometimes I get in a pickle, let me play the devil's advocate here for a minute
Verse 434 Men are overseers over women, by reason of that wherewith Allah hath made one of them excel over anot her, and by reason of that which they expend of their substance. Wherefore righteous women are obedient, and are watchers in husbands absence by the aid and protection of Allah. And those wives whose refractoriness ye fear, exhort them, and avoid them in beds, and beat them; but if they obey you, seek not a way against them; verily Allah is ever Lofty, Grand.
How can you interpret this verse into something that does NOT allow me to beat the crap out of my wife? I can surely read in numerous Hadith that Mohammed forbade beating of ones wife....so because I have been given guidance in Hadith I know that this verse does not mean I can physically beat my woman.
Captain, you see what I mean? Sometimes it is difficult to stand your ground. I can recite verses from the Quran that says Hadiths are no good and that all are not to be taken literally until I turn blue....A sunni or shia brother would not believe a word I say until I can prove by actually interpreting a verse into something that makes sense, AND doing that by staying well clear of Hadith.
That's why I think this forum is pretty darn interesting, let's give us tools so we can beat "them" at their own game. Cap, what you think of 944 and 2258? You got any others you are pondering over?
-
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.For me, The Qur'an is clear, perfect, fully detailed and direct and Thank God I am following it and Thank God I understand it.
There are some verses that sometimes I don't understand but that is why I ask God to extend my knowledge and not to
give me directions to the enarest imam/scholar.Glory be to God.
Peace be upon you. -
Peace,
Emil, I see your point. Regarding 434, I want you to read this website. This verse is a perfect example of an allegorical verse. )
I don't see anything wrong with 2258, though
Hast thou not Turned thy vision to one who disputed with Abraham About his Lord, because Allah had granted himpower? Abraham said "My Lord is He Who Giveth life and death." He said "I give life and death". Said Abraham "But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east Do thou then cause him to rise from the West." Thus was he confounded who (in arrogance) rejected faith. Nor doth Allah Give guidance to a people unjust.This verse merely states that the Sun rises east by God's will, and that no one can make it rise from the west in order to prove their divinity.
-
Peace all
Some people (particularly mainstream muslims) believe verses in the Quran need hadith for explanation. So this thread aims to challenge the thought. Share the verses and see if we can find the meaning to it.
Hah! it is actually the Hadith that critically need "Sanity Check" for Expulsion!
-
Peace all
Emil
Thanks for the thoughts in regards to 944I think 944 is about those who believe in God and are true won?t need to ask for exemption they will just do and trust in God with their wealth and selves.
Actually, i was just looking at the book and they misquoted the verse. the verse they mention is actually 940 but they had written 944 pretty bad editing. So anyway traditional argument is the companion is unknown but hadith verified who it is.. though as Wakas pointed out such information isn?t important same with who disputed with Ibrahim in 2258
2258 is about a dispute and what you said could be an interpretation. Though it seems that Ibrahim challenged this person and that person bahat ?fabahat? which is
Ba-ha-Ta = confound/confuse/dumbfound, unable to see their right course, become affected with wonder, cut short, overcome, took by surprise, caught unaware suddenly, calumny, slander, false accusation.
So he got challenged. Captain Awesome (CA) also makes a valid point which is similar to yours.
In regards to 434 read the link CA gave you. it takes time to digest so take your time with it.
Alen
Thanks but i?m not sunni and last time i checked most people here aren?t either. True, Quran is detailed and has the necessary information, it doesn?t stop me from my own shortcomings of lack of comprehension/understanding hence the questioning/learning. And sure of course, we shall always seek the guidance of Godpeople make comments like as if it?s a walk in a park to understand Quran. Maybe for others it is hence the questioning to get the thoughts out.
Something might have great detail but how well do you understand the detail is something totally different
Jafar
That?s fine if you think so but i wanna focus on understanding Quran not hadith.But by all means challenge the hadith theories/content just don?t be surprised if you actually find hadiths you like.
This thread is more about a challenge for us or yourself to understand quran. I don?t think hadith will make it all clear but it doesn?t mean we should just leave things unattended with the assumption its all clear in understanding.
-
@Sarah Is it just me or are you starting to sound like a wise(r) person?
"How can you interpret this and that verse without Hadith?"
i refrained from this comment yesterday, but now i think it's still valid "How can you interpret this and that (anything) without your mind and your senses?"
I can recite verses from the Quran that says Hadiths are no good and that all are not to be taken literally until I turn blue....A sunni or shia brother would not believe a word I say until I can prove by actually interpreting a verse into something that makes sense, AND doing that by staying well clear of Hadith.
That's why I think this forum is pretty darn interesting, let's give us tools so we can beat "them" at their own game.
Dear Emil, why try to beat them? Forgive me for trying to read deeper into your posts, but it seems to me that you are really concerned about winning a discussion or an argument against Hadith believers, is this true? Or are you concerned about their choice/possibility to embrace AlQuran, without relying on hadith?
________________________anyway,
Back to 2258 and 940 (instead of 944, right?).
Note out of quran.com, i take Dr Ghali's translation since to me, he seemed to try to give the most literal translation. I might do just as well with M. Asad's translation. Content in parentheses removed for better flow.2258
"Have you not regarded him who argued with Ibrahim about his Lord, that Allah had brought him the kingship? As' Ibrahim said, "My Lord is He Who gives life and makes to die, " he said, "I give life and make to die." Ibrahim said, "Yet surely Allah comes up with the sun from the East, so come up with it from the West." Then the one who disbelieved was confounded; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.940
In case ever you do not vindicate him, yet Allah readily vindicated him, as the ones who disbelieved drove him out the second of two, as the two were in the cavern, as he said to his companion, "Grieve not; surely Allah is with us. "Then Allah sent down His serenity on him and aided him with hosts you did not see; and He made the word of the ones who disbelieved the basest; and the Word of Allah is that is The Uppermost; and Allah is Ever-Mighty, Ever-Wise..I don't know exactly the detail of the context (the name of the actors, the precise name/location of the place, and the precise timing of the event, etc). However the most important thing here, imo, is the situation and the interaction that is happening between the actors, and we're given enough information of the context as well right in the verse to understand the situation.
In the verse 940, the situation pictured is, imo, a "helpless" one, these two people were "driven out/expelled", and then they were in a "cave/cavern". The rest i would leave it to your own mind but let's focus on "Grieve not; surely Allah is with us", "serenity/tranquility/peace", "aided/strengthened with hosts/forces you did not see". Now, did your mind lead you to the mystery behind what had actually happened there, on that specific event? But it's said clearly, "hosts/forces you did not see". Now if you were to take a lesson from this verse, which one would you take
A) Keep asking on 'What are exactly those "hosts/forces you did not see"?', or
B) (that) In the most helpless situation, it is best to think and be sure that "Allah is with us" (which gives us the certainty and the serenity/tranquility needed for such difficult situation), and that there is a way which we could only "find/see" when we are in "serenity/tranquility" (i.e. able to think/sense/observe with calm, clear mind).
A magical mystery tour, or a precious lesson for anyone who would rather think and sense? To each their own. Doesn't mean that i reject anything that sounds miraculous, because often we just have no idea of the "how", but my instinct says, waiting passively for a miracle to happen might lead you to a-not-so-satisfying death in such difficult situation. Just beware with that kind of idea. I think it's better to ground yourself on the active side, if you get the gist.
Similarly with 2258, the situation and interaction (in this case, argument) is again muach muach more important, more essential than the details of the context. The first argument about "giving life" and "making death"--anyone, anyone foul enough since the age of Ibrahim until the end of time could respond the same way he did. Remember we're not talking about the correctness of his counter-argument, since it's useless anyway (as made explicit in "...and Allah does not guide the unjust people". Contrast that to the second argument. Who on earth has been able to counter-argue that one? How about in the next 100 years, 1000 years, and so on--will there ever be a human to counter-argue it?
I hope this adds to the discussion. Peace
-
@Sarah Is it just me or are you starting to sound like a wise(r) person?
i refrained from this comment yesterday, but now i think it's still valid "How can you interpret this and that (anything) without your mind and your senses?"
Dear Emil, why try to beat them? Forgive me for trying to read deeper into your posts, but it seems to me that you are really concerned about winning a discussion or an argument against Hadith believers, is this true? Or are you concerned about their choice/possibility to embrace AlQuran, without relying on hadith?
Hello San
You are right, I was a not careful with my choice of words. I am not trying to beat them. But I do need "ammo" when they try to beat me. I live in place where everybody knows everyone, and since I do not "look" exactly like most of my islam brothers (I am blond and blue eyes while most other muslims around me are from Middle East or Africa) I stand out pretty much, everyone knows "the blond guy who is married to one of our sisters".....so I cannot "fly under the radar" so to speak and therefore I am challenged and attacked by my brothers constantly....I guess they don't like that I am a "bad influence" on my wife....Sad to say, it has not only been verbal challenges.....I would do anything to be left alone. I know some brothers who believe in the quran only, but they are too scared to admit it in public. They are right, the brothers would not be as forgiving as they are towards me. With me at least they can blame it on "being a convert, he does not understand".
That is why this forum and others are very important, I am pretty alone at the moment, need help.....
Well, I am way offtopic
Your interpretations of 2258 and 940 are goood sun and I agree, Sarah is a wise person, read some of her other forums and I think she's cool.
Peace out.
-
Alen
Thanks but i?m not sunni and last time i checked most people here aren?t either. True, Quran is detailed and has the necessary information, it doesn?t stop me from my own shortcomings of lack of comprehension/understanding hence the questioning/learning. And sure of course, we shall always seek the guidance of Godpeople make comments like as if it?s a walk in a park to understand Quran. Maybe for others it is hence the questioning to get the thoughts out.
Something might have great detail but how well do you understand the detail is something totally different
Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.I wasn't suggesting nor saying you are, I just quoted those verses as a "weapon" against sunnis.
Glory be to God.Peace be upon you.
