PORK PROHIBITION
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& PEACE TO EVERYONE! i PUT THE "SCARED" ICON BECAUSE I KNOW THE TOPIC COULD GO CRAZY, BUT HERE IS MY QUESTION
I recently read the book "Mental Bondage In the Name of God" (thanks to a link from this very forum, I don't remember which topic, but thanks for it...), and the author lists the forbidden foods-the carrion, the blood, unnaturally dying animal, animal dedicated to other than God during slaughter, and one more, i don't remember. At any rate, the list definately did NOT include pork (swine) as a forbidden.
Now, the Qur'an, which I really do thoroughly love reading in translations, forbids pork (at least according to 7 translations i have read because i dont know Arabic); however, it also commands us to respect all of the previous prophets, and the list includes Jesus. What Jesus said to those who questioned him about food prohibitions from the times of Moses, was that "It is not what goes into the mouth that makes one sin (or sinful), but rahter what comes out of the mouth (i.e. slander, gossip, lies, hypocrisy, etc.). So, can we eat pork or not?
Why is this important to me? I can tell u off the bat that it is NOT a matter of simple semantics, philosophizing, or nit-picking for me-it is a matter of survival for my family. there are three of us, 2 growing teens and myself. we can only eat so much chicken, and in fact, my son, who is autistic, does not tolerate many textures, and chicken is one of them-he really tries to eat it, but just can't. Pork products are VERY INEXPENSIVE (less than a head of lettuce -lettuce-1.49 for a head, pork-99cents a pound) at a hispanic "mom and pop" type meat market i go to. I shouldn't eat much beef, because of diabetes and potential for gout. we can get combined meat baloney (chicken/pork/beef) and bologna for under a dollar (pack of 8 hot dogs, or pound of bologna)-precisely-78 cents.
I am sure you all see where I may be heading with this-no, I am not literally STARVING, (the exemption for pork), but, If I buy these products, we have enough food for the whole month (as we did before turning away from catholicism); now, while I am trying really hard to be a "good Muslim", we NEVER make it through to the end of the month, and since I believe food banks are for those even worse off than me, I always end up using a pawn shop for loan on my laptop to get us to end of month.
I have "met" some incredible, funny, intelligent folks on this forum, and I really, desperately need your help and advice. "Back to school" is upon us, so I will have even less of a food budget for august and september, so this issue becomes even more urgent for me.
I thought long and hard about pigs. I tried to remember any instance in history where they have been used as work animals, pets, or transportation, and can not think of any such examples off the top of my head, and yet, God created them, and not only did he create them, He did not let them perish in the floods of the time of Noah. Why did he do that then, if we are not allowed to eat them? It really seems that food is their purpose in life, and if we remember what Jesus had to say about its not what goes in your mouth that makes one sin...
In other words...HELP!!!!!!!!!! I go meat shopping saturday, have little time.....
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The flesh of swine is prohibited so you read correctly.
Have you tried introducing other foods other than meat? maybe like legumes? lentils? they're cheap. Red kidney beans and chickpeas are high in protein
If you're in need there's nothing wrong with getting support. There will always be people worse off and better off.
Peace
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Peace,
What Jesus said to those who questioned him about food prohibitions from the times of Moses, was that "It is not what goes into the mouth that makes one sin (or sinful), but rahter what comes out of the mouth (i.e. slander, gossip, lies, hypocrisy, etc.). So, can we eat pork or not?
Read in context see the example put forth was limited to eating with unwashed hands...
http//yltbible.com/matthew/15.htm
15 And Peter answering said to him, 'Explain to us this simile.' 16 And Jesus said, 'Are ye also yet without understanding? 17 do ye not understand that all that is going into the mouth doth pass into the belly, and into the drain is cast forth? 18 but the things coming forth from the mouth from the heart do come forth, and these defile the man; 19 for out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms, thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings 20 these are the things defiling the man; but to eat with unwashen hands doth not defile the man.'
It was Paul who later put a spin on the above making eating anything (use your imagination) acceptable which swine was at the time a main food stable throughout most the Roman empire even as it is today culturally entwined with religious traditions which include alcohol especially amongst certain Slavic countries Orthodox and Catholics ingrained by conflict with Islam/Ottoman in the past; i.e. tell people it's OK to eat pork to differentiate themselves from the people of The Book.
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dear hanifa47,
i admire your honesty in describing your situation and dilemma. peace
i did some googling, and found out about TVP (texturized vegetable protein) which is like a meat substitute made of soy which is rich in fiber and protein but at the same time low in cholesterol, fat and sodium.
it comes in a dried form and needs to be rehydrated (in hot water or better in broth or buillon to give it the taste that you want because it does not have a taste on its own). texture should be similar to ground beef.
if you buy it in bulk it should be even cheaper than pork, even if the price per DRY pound will be slightly higher than that of pork, because TVP will more than DOUBLE after rehydration, so in usable form it should be cheaper in the end.
i read it should be available in farmers markets or in supermarkets in health foods', whole foods' or bulk section - just check it out next time you go shopping! )i checked some peoples' reviews about using this meat substitute and most were very content. vegans also use it a lot.
i personally can't recommend or endorse it simply because i have never tried it myself, but it seems like a pretty interesting alternative!
just google tvp to find out more )
p.s. make sure you or your children do not have allergy to soy.
p.s.s. i also agree with sarahY that beans and legumes can be a great and inexpensive source of proteins, i'll PM you my favourite kidney bean recipe, but tomorrow since right now i'm typing from my phone (fingers already cramped lol)hope the info above helps!
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i checked some peoples' reviews about using this meat substitute and most were very content. vegans also use it a lot.
TVP can be problematic because it's a highly processed product. Personally, I don't use it, in fact, I never use any sort of meat substitutes.
I agree with Sarah ... I would try to cut down on meat. It's not healthy to eat it every day anyway. And veggies, beans, legumes are not expensive at all.
peace
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peace,
Firstly, on this point, Aidid Safar ignores the Arabic word/grammar construction, hence holds this view. It has been discussed extensively on this forum, please use the search function.
Secondly, why are you quoting an alleged saying of Jesus and somehow implying this could over rule Al Quran? Unless your approach is you are a monotheist follower of a previous revelation, and do not use Al Quran as final guidance, or similar.
And lastly I dont know why you seemingly conclude pigs purpose is to be eaten, simply because they are present. This reasoning could be used for almost any animal that is present today.
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And lastly I dont know why you seemingly conclude pigs purpose is to be eaten, simply because they are present. This reasoning could be used for almost any animal that is present today.
And for humans too. & & &
On a serious note ... pigs are very intelligent animals, and they can be useful to humans in various regards. So they could have been created for some other purpose than being eaten.
Pigs prove to be smart
Sniffer pigs are supposedly easier to train than sniffer dogs.
How close are pushy pigs to humans?
http//www.trockenwerk-dretzel.de/Bilder/ferkel%20neu%205.jpg
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TVP can be problematic because it's a highly processed product.
leyna is right, it IS a highly processed product, not a whole-food. however, if used in moderation and especially to substitute a not-so-lean cut of meat (especially pork!), and price is a factor then imho it does make sense. if someone is so used to eating meat it might be difficult for them to suddenly switch to beans alone, therefore tvp can serve as help in the 'transition period'.
FYI, a 1/4 cup dry serving of textured vegetable protein or TVP has
80 calories
0 grams of fat
0 grams of cholesterol
2 mg of sodium
594 mg of potassium
7 grams of carbohydrates
4 grams of fiber
3 grams of sugar
12 grams of protein
8% calcium RDA
15% Iron RDA
18% magnesium RDAhanifa, i would strongly advise you against deciding to start buying pork, and here's why
• quran straightforwardly forbids us from eating the flesh of swine
a) quran 16114-115
"So eat of the lawful and good food which Allah has provided for you, and thank the bounty of your Lord if it is Him you serve. He has forbidden for you only carrion and blood and swine-flesh and that which has been immolated in the name of any other than Allah; but he who is driven thereto, neither craving nor transgressing, Lo! then Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."• the old testament also forbids pork
a) deuteronomy 147-8
However, of those that chew the cud or that have a split hoof completely divided you may not eat the camel, the rabbit or the coney. Although they chew the cud, they do not have a split hoof; they are ceremonially unclean for you. The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.
b) leviticus 117
And the swine, though he divide the hoof, and be clovenfooted, yet he cheweth not the cud; he is unclean to you.• it is medically not sane to consume pork because
a) pig's digestive system is so fast that toxins are often not removed and instead stored in pig's fat
b) pork is famous for containing parasites - trichina worms and tapeworms
c) it contains too much fat (compared to all other meats) and its consumption may lead to atherosclerosis in the long runpls keep all this is mind when you go meat-shopping tomorrow peace
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however, if used in moderation and especially to substitute a not-so-lean cut of meat (especially pork!), and price is a factor then imho it does make sense. if someone is so used to eating meat it might be difficult for them to suddenly switch to beans alone, therefore tvp can serve as help in the 'transition period'.
Yup, you're right. If someone is used to eating meat and feeling they can't cook without, it might be a good idea to substitute it sometimes with TVP.
That said, I would definitely explore tasty, cheap vegetarian dishes. Not trying to turn everyone into a veggie, but eating meat every day is really not healthy anyway, not to mention the cost factor which was an issue here.
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Salaam Hanifa,
I recently read the book "Mental Bondage In the Name of God
Well, firstly I'd like to give my opinion that this book is garbage. Fraught with emotionally loaded language and inaccurate in its translations.
Pork products are VERY INEXPENSIVE (less than a head of lettuce -lettuce-1.49 for a head, pork-99cents a pound) at a hispanic "mom and pop" type meat market i go to. I shouldn't eat much beef, because of diabetes and potential for gout. we can get combined meat baloney (chicken/pork/beef) and bologna for under a dollar (pack of 8 hot dogs, or pound of bologna)-precisely-78 cents.
As you mentioned, pork is much cheaper than other meat. But why do you think that is?
There's a reason it's so cheap, and that is because the cheaper the meat is to produce, the cheaper it is to sell.The cheapest kind of meat are the combined types where literally all the remaining lowest quality meat on the factory floor is thrown together. And honestly, you shouldn't be eating this kind of crap if you value your health. I like to live by the adage, "you are what you eat".
From a health perspective, the healthiest diet is one where meat is consumed rarely, once or twice a week.
But understandably, very few people actually follow such a diet, including myself, as a meat lover. So your options are- Follow a healthier, less meat-intensive diet, by getting your protein from vegetable sources.
- Try to find alternative meats that are only slightly more expensive, such as turkey. Isn't turkey cheap in the US?
- Stick to your less healthy, less Quranically adherent diet, and continue eating pork.
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There's a reason it's so cheap, and that is because the cheaper the meat is to produce, the cheaper it is to sell.
The cheapest kind of meat are the combined types where literally all the remaining lowest quality meat on the factory floor is thrown together. And honestly, you shouldn't be eating this kind of crap if you value your health. I like to live by the adage, "you are what you eat".
I agree. Also, cheap meat is meat that is being mass-produced. And mass production of meat means a lot of cruelty towards animals. I know we discussed this in other threads, so don't want to elaborate on that. But if you are thinking about what might be "religiously allowed" or not, this factor should also play a role imho. Can it be God's will that animals are being treated the way they are being treated in the industrial production of meat, just so that we are able to have a piece of meat on our plate without paying much for it?
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Why is this important to me? I can tell u off the bat that it is NOT a matter of simple semantics, philosophizing, or nit-picking for me-it is a matter of survival for my family. there are three of us, 2 growing teens and myself. we can only eat so much chicken, and in fact, my son, who is autistic, does not tolerate many textures, and chicken is one of them-he really tries to eat it, but just can't. Pork products are VERY INEXPENSIVE (less than a head of lettuce -lettuce-1.49 for a head, pork-99cents a pound) at a hispanic "mom and pop" type meat market i go to. I shouldn't eat much beef, because of diabetes and potential for gout. we can get combined meat baloney (chicken/pork/beef) and bologna for under a dollar (pack of 8 hot dogs, or pound of bologna)-precisely-78 cents.
The saying is you are what you eat, and pigs have lots of personality traits that are bad for human beings. They're arrogant, unhygienic, they stick their snouts where they do not belong, they eat their own faeces.
I recommend fish instead!
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Per Koran
- He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
In all the ayats where God forbids us what to eat, he says that it is not a sin to eat pork if you are compelled by necessity or hunger.
Now, in your situation would eating pork be considered a necessity? this is something that you have to answer for yourself. But personally, I think not.
Canned chicken, tuna, dried beans are cheap. Frozen veggies are cheaper if you are on a budget trying to eat healthy. Invest in a crockpot/slow cooker, combine everything and you have a meal for cheap and nutritious that lasts for days. Absolutely no nutritional value eating hot dogs, bologna, such - very unhealthy for you. Yes, you can eat healthy on a really tight budget. Plant herbs, veggies and then can them. When there is a will, there is always a way. Please don't insert the seeds in your children that being poor means we have to resort to eating unhealthy.
I lived below the poverty level myself. Had 5 dollars to my name at one time. So, I have been there, done that.
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The saying is you are what you eat, and pigs have lots of personality traits that are bad for human beings.
So do sheep.
In Cairo, pigs have played an important part in waste disposal because they used to eat organic waste. Now the city is facing another garbage crisis because all the pigs were killed during the swine flu hysteria.
Belatedly, Egypt Spots Flaws in Wiping Out Pigs
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'( Reply to WAKAS
I was made to feel quite uncomfortable by your response. I am a very new, non-arabic speaking, low-income, single-mother-of-two muslim with 7 translations of the Koran from 4 different people, each of whom told me that the one (or ones) they were giving me to read was "the most accurate". I havent even been monotheist for a whole year yet. I am trying my best to not only understand the religion i converted to, but to see the value of the catholic tradition i believed in for 47 years of my life. the only reason i even ventured to (now i know a bad decision on my part) mention Jesus is because the Koran, at least in my english translations says we can not ignore any of the prophets-i guess i misunderstood that, and guess for most of my life misunderstood what Jesus said as well, and now am feeling pretty darn bad about decisions i have made in my life having to do with spirituality. I am sorry that my mention of Jesus made you so uncomfortable that you had to go so far as to question my sincerity in my belief of what's in the Koran. This forum apparently is the wrong place for me. A simple, dumb, believing woman has no place in lofty discussions like these, so, since i have eaten pork for 47 years, i guess im just a dumb pig trying to be a muslim. I won't make THAT mistake anymore. as to aidid safar, on this very website, a whole of people posted links to his site and his book, so, mistake number two, i guess, was for me to go read his book as per the advice of other forum members. he himself wrote me an email and said pork is livestock. have a wonderful day, and goodbye-this is apparently no place for me-im too stupid to understand what's in my enlish language Korans.
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'( Reply to WAKAS
I was made to feel quite uncomfortable by your response. I am a very new, non-arabic speaking, low-income, single-mother-of-two muslim with 7 translations of the Koran from 4 different people, each of whom told me that the one (or ones) they were giving me to read was "the most accurate". I havent even been monotheist for a whole year yet. I am trying my best to not only understand the religion i converted to, but to see the value of the catholic tradition i believed in for 47 years of my life. the only reason i even ventured to (now i know a bad decision on my part) mention Jesus is because the Koran, at least in my english translations says we can not ignore any of the prophets-i guess i misunderstood that, and guess for most of my life misunderstood what Jesus said as well, and now am feeling pretty darn bad about decisions i have made in my life having to do with spirituality. I am sorry that my mention of Jesus made you so uncomfortable that you had to go so far as to question my sincerity in my belief of what's in the Koran. This forum apparently is the wrong place for me. A simple, dumb, believing woman has no place in lofty discussions like these, so, since i have eaten pork for 47 years, i guess im just a dumb pig trying to be a muslim. I won't make THAT mistake anymore. as to aidid safar, on this very website, a whole of people posted links to his site and his book, so, mistake number two, i guess, was for me to go read his book as per the advice of other forum members. he himself wrote me an email and said pork is livestock. have a wonderful day, and goodbye-this is apparently no place for me-im too stupid to understand what's in my enlish language Korans.
'( '(
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Peace hanifa,
no one is calling you dumb, your past is your past that's between you and God. This forum is for all people.
Quran prohibits the meat of pork/swine so the mentioning of others wouldn't make it permissible even though there may be some wisdom behind it, what comes out is as important as what goes in.
2173 (Asad) He has forbidden to you only carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked; but if one is driven by necessity - neither coveting it nor exceeding his immediate need -no sin shall be upon him for, behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
53 (Asad) FORBIDDEN to you is carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked, and the animal that has been strangled, or beaten to death, or killed by a fall, or gored to death, or savaged by a beast of prey, save that which you may have slaughtered while it was still alive; and all that has been slaughtered on idolatrous altars. And to seek to learn through divination what the future may hold in store for you this is sinful conduct. Today, those who , are bent on denying the truth have lost all hope of your religion do not, then, hold them in awe, but stand in awe of Me! Today have I perfected your religious law for you, and have bestowed upon you the full measure of My blessings, and willed that self-surrender unto Me shall be your religion. As for him, however, who is driven by dire necessity and not by an inclination to sinning -behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
6145 (Asad) Say "In all that has been revealed unto me, I do not find anything forbidden to eat, if one wants to eat thereof, unless it be carrion, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine-for that, behold, is loathsome-or a sinful offering over which any name other than God's has been invoked. But if one is driven by necessity - neither coveting it nor exceeding his immediate need -then , behold, thy Sustainer is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace."
16115 (Asad) He has forbidden to you only carrion, and blood, and the flesh of swine, and that over which any name other than God's has been invoked; but if one is driven by necessity - neither coveting it nor exceeding his immediate need -verily, God is much forgiving, a dispenser of grace.
don't shut doors on yourself, reflect search learn
P.s no-one is trying to disrespect/ignore Jesus or any other prophet but if there is conflicted, it can't be accepted
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hey hanifa,
please stay in this forum!
it was just a misunderstanding!if you see wakas' other posts you will realize it is just his style of writing, very to the point & armed with logic & facts, although at the same time it may come off as a little sharp and/or cold for more sensitive people.
so chill, everybody appreciates you joining this forum, and nobody questions your commitment or sincerity )
i would like to ask this as a personal favour - pls stick around! thank you peace -
peace hanifa,
If my post made you feel uncomfortable, then I can only apologise. That was not my intention, but I think you have read too much into what I said. However, it has raised some important points you may wish to consider.
If you admit you read multiple translations that are considered to be "most accurate" by those who recommended them, then when you read in Aidid Safar's book one can eat pig meat, then clearly there is a conflict, thus you need to research that conflict. I offered a way how to do this, i.e. via forum search. Quite helpful I thought.
No one here has a problem with you mentioning Jesus (The Quran itself mentions him many times, more so than Muhammad). The potential problem lies in using an external source to over rule The Quran, as you were thinking about, whilst at the same time you were seemingly trying to follow The Quran. Thus, your approach was not clear to me, hence my asking "why". Asking "why" does not mean it is an attack on your views/sincerity, that is your own interpretation.
It seems your approach stemmed from misunderstanding what you read in your translation of The Quran, which you mentioned.I'm not sure why you now feel bad about past decisions you may have made about spirituality (if you used what Jesus may have said as a reference), as they may have been right, they may have been wrong, not necessarily all wrong.
Lastly, if anyone on this forum, including me, or anywhere else, recommends something or has a particular view, that does not mean it is correct. Read to weigh and consider, not accept without verifying. I wrote an article about reading and studying The Quran recently, you may find it helpful
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.htmlAnd I wouldn't worry about not understanding what you read in your English Quran, this happens to me on a regular basis. They key is adopting an intelligent approach, in order to stack the odds in your favour of gaining an accurate understanding.
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Hanifa,
I am quite taken back by your reaction. Like you, I too am a non-arabic speaking person. I have to rely on translations. In addition to reading multiple translations (and not just english), one thing about the koran is repitition and living in the era of internet, you can do phonetic searches of the Koran and figure some things out yourself. In all the translations that I have read, the Koran is clear on the subject of eating pork - it is prohibited.
You turned to the forum asking for help and advice as you have eaten pork all your life and given your economic situation, this posed a problem in your life. Putting aside the Koran, eating pork is unhealthy for you. You don't need to eat pork or any meat. Eating healthy is a choice independent of your socioeconomic status. (I am speaking from experience as I have been at one end to the other end of the economic status. Now, I can afford to eat unhealthy!)
Yes, you are absolutely right that the Koran tells us to respect other prophets. Personally, I don't make any distinction between Jesus vs Mohammad vs Moses vs Abraham, and so on. But does this mean that I use any other source besides the Koran for guidance?
You need to decide for yourself do you go by the Koran, bible that you have, hadiths, scholars, etc. You used a source other than the Koran where Jesus supposedly said "It is not what goes into the mouth that makes one sin (or sinful), but rahter what comes out of the mouth (i.e. slander, gossip, lies, hypocrisy, etc.).
The bible that exists today is NOT the original bible that God sent. I place the bible of today at the same level as the hadiths collected by Bukhari and such. I came to reject the bible when I attended catholic school and went to confession and told the priest that I am not a christian. The bible that we have today is part word of God but a whole lot of hadiths - of what Jesus said or did which he may or may not have. Best way for satan to lead people astray is to mix truth with falsehood.
Now, if I read something in the Koran that doesn't quite sit well with my ways of life, do I turn to other sources, scholars, forum, etc. If you find a high ranking scholar who says that eating pork is ok, are you going to go by what he says or his interpretation? You have to decide for yourself how you want to live your life. God has given each of us this right. You can listen to all the advice, views, etc and at the end, you need to decide for yourself if you want to continue eating pork or not. Putting aside 'religion' I sure hope that you will chose not to eat pork and eat healthy.
About leaving the forum, I think that you can learn a lot and add to the discussions. If my faith depended on people, I sure wouldn't be a muslim, christian, jew, hindu, etc. 8-)
