new article - Quranic terms defined
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peace all,
I have been reviewing in detail various terms, and have made extensive notes, but since they will not be ready for publishing for a while, I will present here a tentative summary, for members to reflect upon
deen = that which is due, obligation/due/system
qibla = focus/direction
bayt = a vehicle/medium for rest/tranquility/shelter, which one can enter
can be a physical building or place, e.g. house, but can also be used to signify any real-world structure, e.g. deen, hence "people of the house", i.e. those living under God's deensalla (verb) = go/turn towards in a close/positive manner
salat = bond
Can be made specific dependening on addressee, e.g. saying "uphold the bond" to a believer will entail upholding a bond specific to them.maqam = stance/position/status
bakka = could be a place/title, or mean "distinguishing/ranking above others"
makka = could be a place/title, or mean crowding/destruction
al bayt al haram = the sanctified/restricted house
An area satisfying the criteria of God's bayt/deen, considered a safety/sanctury for all who abide by its law. The concept of a "haram" was very common in Arabia.al bayt al atiq = the ancient/noble/freed/liberated house
Seems to be another name for al bayt al haram.kabba = base (as in that which other components stand on) or projection (as in area above others, a thing elevated by rank/honour/glory)
could be delimited by defined borders, hence its other meanings.
Should be noted that this word is only mentioned when the believers' system was at its peak, not prior, i.e. when they were able to establish such a thing.rk3 = incline
SJD = an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or giving acknowledgement/recognition, make obeisance. Does not mean prostrate.
maSJD = mode/manner/place of SJD, implementation of SJD
In Quran's context it means any command/decree in it that is actioned/implemented/done, put in place, put into practice etc.al maSJD al haram = the sanctified/restricted implemented/actioned SJD
Refers to a system/entity implementing special/particular act(s) of SJD, e.g. of which could be contained in a treaty , or present in a location, or be one's direction/focus .All terms can studied for oneself using the many tools/resources at www.StudyQuran.org
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SJD = an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or giving acknowledgement/recognition, make obeisance. Does not mean prostrate
What is MASJID? is it also derived from SJD? are they inter related?
I mean to say if Masjid is a place for implementation of SJD, than it really is confusing,
When we see the Historical usage of Masjid in Islam and Before Islam, and compare it to what is being derived,
Therfore it should be explained what is actionable presentation of "hearing and obeying"? that can be done in masjid. -
maSJD = mode/manner/place of SJD, implementation of SJD
How could a location be called or considered simultaneously "mode, manner"?
"implementation of SJD" so SJD is something, noun and implementation is a different sort of verb. What is that with which this "SJD" could be implemented?
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peace,
raaajah, of course you find it confusing, as you have probably not reviewed the occurrences, let alone the accuracy of translations. Secondly, if you have evidence of usage of "masjid" prior to "Islam" then let us know.
mazhar, I do not say location can be considered simultaneously "mode/manner". I use the oblique slash "/" to imply an option, e.g. select from the drinks menu water/milk/cola.
If you would like an example of an 'actioned/implemented SJD', see any occurrence, but the ones most obvious are 2187, 729-31.The main problem likely to arise is the inaccuracy of translations. I will post my notes of these two for you and others to consider
729 Say "My Lord has ordered with justice, and set-straight/right /establish your faces/wills/purposes/considerations inda/with every maSJD / implemented acknowledgement/submission, and invoke Him (as) those sincere to Him (in) the obligation/system; as He initiated you, so you will return."
730 A group He guided and a group deserved on them misguidance; indeed they have taken the devils/opponents as allies besides God; and they think they are those guided!
731 O Children of Adam, take* (to yourselves) your adornment/beauty inda/with every maSJD / implemented acknowledgement/submission, and eat and drink and do not exceed; He does not like those who exceed.*verb form 5, reflexive.
Asad mentions that in this context maSJD evidently means "act of worship". Alluded to in Ibn Kathir. This understanding is not new.
The phrase "aqim wajh" in 729 also appears in 10105, 3030, 3043 and always refers to deen (obligation/system), i.e. that which is due, which is also mentioned in 729. It is never a physical directional command.
There is a link to orders from God and undertaking them in the proper manner, as those sincere. This seems to be the theme of these verses, i.e. getting your mindset right when you approach God's commands.
As a side note, whilst most translators of 679 have Abraham saying "I shall turn my face to the One who created the heavens and the earth..." traditional commentators explain it as "making his religion and works sincere", no doubt because this was prior to the so-called building of the Kabba, thus to render it as a physical direction when such a place did not exist would be problematic for them, yet they take this phrase to mean physical direction at other times.
"eat and drink" is considered an idiom meaning "enjoy and savour" / "enjoy in bliss" in some dictionaries? Interestingly, if "eat and drink" is taken literally, then one must ask what does this have to do with a mosque building?2187 Lawful for you in the night of the abstinence/fast is sexual approach to your women, they are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray/deceive yourselves so He turned towards you and He forgave you; so now approach them and seek what God has decreed/written for you. And you may eat and drink until becomes distinct the white thread, from the black thread, of dawn. Then you shall complete the abstinence/fast until the night, and do not approach them while you are devoting/staying in the maSaJiD / implemented acknowledgements/submissions. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
This clearly implies wives could theoretically be approached by husbands in the masajid! Interestingly, IF one takes masajid=mosques then if women were not allowed in them, it would make this statement odd/redundant, thus implying women are present in the mosques or at least can be.
IF masajids=mosques, why even mention mosques, when there is much greater chance of sexual temptation in the homes? The traditional commentators have an explanation for this Jalalayn says this is referring to 'itikaf' (spiritual retreat in the mosque) when believers would leave the mosque for sex then return. A complete insertion of course, and hardly "clear" as it implies at the end of the verse, and the obvious error as it says "...while you are devoting/staying IN the masajid" not when one leaves them. Interestingly, if we take it as an implemented acknowledgement/submission then the idea of "itikaf" bears some similarities. -
How could a location be called or considered simultaneously "mode, manner"?
How about
- the driver is still in the car
- going downtown by car
- private car vs public transport
@Wakas, did you on purpose, leave out the gesture of "humbleness" from RK3 and SJD? Don't you think it's integral to their meaning?
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@san, some 'humility' would be needed for one to RK3 or SJD, however I'm not sure if I'd define/restrict them that way. SJD is often contrasted to arrogance/pride/self-magnification however. See the interesting use in 1648-49 and Dal-Kha-Ra/humble.
RK3~incline/humbleness, is ok. Refers to an inclining disposition/character/soul.
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mazhar, I do not say location can be considered simultaneously "mode/manner". I use the oblique slash "/" to imply an option, e.g. select from the drinks menu water/milk/cola.
Such things are not found in Arabic language that a single word could be described in such manner
maSJD = mode/manner/place of SJD, implementation of SJD
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Wakas
raaajah, of course you find it confusing, as you have probably not reviewed the occurrences, let alone the accuracy of translations. Secondly, if you have evidence of usage of "masjid" prior to "Islam" then let us know.
Actually I became confused after reading, what you are suggesting. And I want to clear this confusion.
I have read 171 and it provides the evidence of Masjid and its usage before Islam
and 177 also provides the pre-Islamic Evidence.Al-Zarkashi says
Linguistically, it comes on the scheme of maf`il with a kasrah which is ism makan for prostration, while with a fathah it is a masdar.and 177 supports the view of prostration in Masjid(temple) before Islam.
He further says
Since prostration is the most honourable act in prayer because of the nearness of the servant to his Lord, the name of the location was derived from it. This is why we call it masjid and not marka` .Coming back to 171 Encylopedia Judaica states
The priest who had gathered the coals entered the sanctuary first, scattered them over the incense altar, prostrated himself, and departed. Then the priest who was chosen by lot to offer the incense entered, bearing the pan of incense in his hand. He was accompanied by a priest appointed for this task who instructed him in the proper ritual, and he did not offer it until he was told "Offer the incense!" The officiating priest waited until the space between the hall and the altar was cleared of people, offered up the incense, prostrated himself, and departed (Tam. 6; Kelim end of ch. 1). During the offering of the incense in the sanctuary, the people used to gather in the azarah for prayer, and even outside the Temple these times were set aside for prayer (cf. Luke 110; Judith 91). After the departure of the priest who had offered the incense, all the priests filed into the sanctuary, prostrated themselves, and went out again. -
depends on how you define 'pre-Islam' as according to God Abraham was Muslim, so was Adam etc, so Islam was around then and not a new thing brought by Muhammed, Muhammed brought Quran, not Islam. I would assume Masjid is the Arabic for place of worship which will have had other names depending on the language and not the usage.
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Reagarding 2187
...and do not approach them while you are devoting/staying in the maSaJiD / implemented acknowledgements/submissions. These are God's boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous.
In Itikaaf, it is not that you had to stay 24 hours sitting in one place, people used to go out for their daily needs, such as to toilet, for bath etc. as in those days Masjid was not similar to that of today's having all the facilities, in that case it is warned to avoid sex with wives, during that time.
and the obvious error as it says "...while you are devoting/staying IN the masajid" not when one leaves them
While one is in Masjid he is in postion of Itikaaf, therefore it makes no sense, to warn against sex, neither their is any evidence that mix gender Itikaaf was in practice at time of Muhammad peace be upon him.
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Peace Raaajah,
I have read 171 and it provides the evidence of Masjid and its usage before Islam
and 177 also provides the pre-Islamic Evidence.Actually, it is the other way. Even the most dogmatic traditionalist admits to the fact that there was no place in Jerusalem called Al-masjid Al-Aqsa prior to Umar building it after the Arab conquest. In fact, there is never any mention or the slightest evidence from the people of the book or any other people of a place called Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa anytime before that.
Al-Zarkashi says
Linguistically, it comes on the scheme of mafil with a kasrah which is ism makan for prostration, while with a fathah it is a masdar. and 177 supports the view of prostration in Masjid(temple) before Islam. He further says Since prostration is the most honourable act in prayer because of the nearness of the servant to his Lord, the name of the location was derived from it. This is why we call it masjid and not marka.This is not correct. Take words like KaTaBa, YaKToB, MaKTaB, which share the same form as "SaJaDa". The name of location is MaKTaB and not MaKTiB. Similarly for SaJaDa, the name of location is MaSJaD, not MaSJiD.
Notice how Al-Zarkashi contradicts himself in the next sentence and says of the location of ruku' as marka
NOT marki.Coming back to 171 Encylopedia Judaica states
The priest who had gathered the coals entered the sanctuary first, scattered them over the incense altar, prostrated himself, and departed. Then the priest who was chosen by lot to offer the incense entered, bearing the pan of incense in his hand. He was accompanied by a priest appointed for this task who instructed him in the proper ritual, and he did not offer it until he was told "Offer the incense!" The officiating priest waited until the space between the hall and the altar was cleared of people, offered up the incense, prostrated himself, and departed (Tam. 6; Kelim end of ch. 1). During the offering of the incense in the sanctuary, the people used to gather in the azarah for prayer, and even outside the Temple these times were set aside for prayer (cf. Luke 110; Judith 91). After the departure of the priest who had offered the incense, all the priests filed into the sanctuary, prostrated themselves, and went out again.There is nothing in here or anywhere in the Bible about a place called Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa or a place called Al-Masjid Al-Haram. How come NO ONE from the people of the book or any people ever been to those places or even heard of them?
002.146
YUSUFALI The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.
PICKTHAL Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognise (this revelation) as they recognise their sons. But lo! a party of them knowingly conceal the truth.
SHAKIR Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).Prior to the 8th century CE there is never any mention or the slightest evidence from the people of the book or any other people of a place called Al-Masjid Al-Haram. Do you forget your children and their names or that you even have children? To this day do any of the people of the book or even so-called Muslims themselves know anything in Mecca as they know their own children?
Do you think that the god is exaggerating when he uses this similtude?
On the other hand, ALL the people of the book know that they should obey the god by implementing the truth from him. As such, "al-masjid al-haram" is an institution of obedience, just like "government", and is not an empty cube-shaped building.
Peace,
Ayman
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Reagarding 2187In Itikaaf, it is not that you had to stay 24 hours sitting in one place, people used to go out for their daily needs, such as to toilet, for bath etc. as in those days Masjid was not similar to that of today's having all the facilities, in that case it is warned to avoid sex with wives, during that time.
While one is in Masjid he is in postion of Itikaaf, therefore it makes no sense, to warn against sex, neither their is any evidence that mix gender Itikaaf was in practice at time of Muhammad peace be upon him.that makes no sense. the verse is saying while your attention is on GOD do not approach your wives for SEX as I have been saying in the other thread. There is NO evidence that women were not there at this time either and as Quran is for both genders this is clearly saying when in the Mosque you are Gods, when at home after fasting you have your wife. The verse is regarding fasting so popping off to see the mrs during the day is a no no, while in the mosque your mind is on God and you can approach your wife when you both get home. Do not assocciate with your wife while in the Mosque proves she was also there too.
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Reagarding 2187In Itikaaf, it is not that you had to stay 24 hours sitting in one place, people used to go out for their daily needs, such as to toilet, for bath etc. as in those days Masjid was not similar to that of today's having all the facilities, in that case it is warned to avoid sex with wives, during that time.
2187 clearly says "fi" (inside) al-masaajid.
While one is in Masjid he is in postion of Itikaaf, therefore it makes no sense, to warn against sex, neither their is any evidence that mix gender Itikaaf was in practice at time of Muhammad peace be upon him.
Exactly. It makes no sense, to warn against sex IN any public gathering place, let alone a building for congregational prayer. So "masjid" cannot be a place.
Peace,
Ayman
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ayman
Actually, it is the other way. Even the most dogmatic traditionalist admits to the fact that there was no place in Jerusalem called Al-masjid Al-Aqsa prior to Umar building it after the Arab conquest. In fact, there is never any mention or the slightest evidence from the people of the book or any other people of a place called Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa anytime before that.
It may be a misunderstanding on your part, If you consider Masjid as a building, well it is not
Zarkashi points out that
From a legal point of view it refers to every place on earth since the Prophet - peace be upon him - said "The earth was made a masjid for me" which is a particularity of this ummah. This was said by the Qadi `Iyad because the previous nations used not to pray except in the places they were sure of their pureness whereas we were allowed to perform the prayers in any place not known to be impure.This is supported by a HAdith
Therefore, whether there was a building or not when the Prophet made his heavenly trip, it is the location of the "Farthest Mosque" that is intended by the verse and not a building per se because the location where it lies was blessed by God as mentioned in verse 171 "the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless"The earth has been made for me a "masjid" and a means of purification. Therefore, my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. -
ayman
There is nothing in here or anywhere in the Bible about a place called Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa or a place called Al-Masjid Al-Haram. How come NO ONE from the people of the book or any people ever been to those places or even heard of them?
This again seems to be a misunderstanding
Al-Masjid al-Aqsa and the surrounding area (i.e., Dome of the Rock among others) is usually identified with the place where the Temple of Solomon once stood. Bet ha-Miqdash, in jewish literature and in this Bet ha Miqdash, the prostration took place which i quoted from the encyclopedia.This is what a Masjid may be and not usually a building
http//www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Contrad/External/aqsa4.gif
Figure 6 Mosque at Har Oded facing south-southeast. -
ayman
This is not correct. Take words like KaTaBa, YaKToB, MaKTaB, which share the same form as "SaJaDa". The name of location is MaKTaB and not MaKTiB. Similarly for SaJaDa, the name of location is MaSJaD, not MaSJiD.
Notice how Al-Zarkashi contradicts himself in the next sentence and says of the location of ruku' as marka`NOT marki
But according to MSM Saifullah
Abu Zakariyya al-Farra' said Every verb coming on the scheme of faala yafulu like dakhala yadkhulu admits the form mafal with a fathah as a noun or masdar without distinction like in dakhala madkhalan. There are some nouns that were bound to take a kasrah on the second letter of its root like masjid, matli, maghrib, mashriq and others, thus making the kasrah a sign of the noun, and some Arabs may say it with a fathah.Indeed, masjid and masjad, and matli
and matlawere all narrated.He said Putting a fathah in all these forms is admissible even if we did not hear it before.
He said in Al-Sihah Masjad with a fathah refers to one's forehead which is the place involved in prostration.
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Peace Raaajah,
It may be a misunderstanding on your part, If you consider Masjid as a building, well it is not
It is not a misunderstanding on my part but you didn't read what I wrote carefully. I said "there was no place in Jerusalem called Al-masjid Al-Aqsa". In case you may not know, in the English language the word "place" can be a building, or a piece of land, etc.
So the fact stands that there was no place named Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem or any where. Also, there was no place named Al-Masjid Al-Haram.
Zarkashi points out that
From a legal point of view it refers to every place on earth since the Prophet - peace be upon him - said "The earth was made a masjid for me" which is a particularity of this ummah. This was said by the Qadi `Iyad because the previous nations used not to pray except in the places they were sure of their pureness whereas we were allowed to perform the prayers in any place not known to be impure.
This is supported by a HAdith
Therefore, whether there was a building or not when the Prophet made his heavenly trip, it is the location of the "Farthest Mosque" that is intended by the verse and not a building per se because the location where it lies was blessed by God as mentioned in verse 171 "the Farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless"The earth has been made for me a "masjid" and a means of purification. Therefore, my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due.So according to the above, you admit that "al-masjid al-aqsa" in 171 is not the name of some specific place or building but it is a common noun meaning "the farthest place for prostration". So we all agree that the place or building in Jerusalem named Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa is not what is talked about in 171.
This again seems to be a misunderstanding
There is no misunderstanding and I choose my words very carefully, including the word "place". This is not a coincidence but I have in the past debated this matter with others, including MSM Saifullah, so I am familiar with all angles of the traditionalist arguments when they get cornered. This is why MSM Saifullah was never able to answer to the fact that taking "al-masjid al-aqsa" as a common noun as he was forced to do and not the proper name of some place actually destroys the legitimacy of the present Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa since it is impossible for it to be what is talked about in 171.
Al-Masjid al-Aqsa and the surrounding area (i.e., Dome of the Rock among others) is usually identified with the place where the Temple of Solomon once stood. Bet ha-Miqdash, in jewish literature and in this Bet ha Miqdash, the prostration took place which i quoted from the encyclopedia.
This is what a Masjid may be and not usually a buildingYour reference to Bet ha-Miqdash and not Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa in Jewish literature is the best that you could get and is therefore a surrender on your part to the fact that there is ZERO mention of a place called Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa.
But according to MSM Saifullah
Abu Zakariyya al-Farra' said Every verb coming on the scheme of faala yafulu like dakhala yadkhulu admits the form mafal with a fathah as a noun or masdar without distinction like in dakhala madkhalan. There are some nouns that were bound to take a kasrah on the second letter of its root like masjid, matli, maghrib, mashriq and others, thus making the kasrah a sign of the noun, and some Arabs may say it with a fathah.
Indeed, masjid and masjad, and matliand matlawere all narrated.
He said Putting a fathah in all these forms is admissible even if we did not hear it before.
He said in Al-Sihah Masjad with a fathah refers to one's forehead which is the place involved in prostration.I already gave you the rule and the appropriate general forms. Those nouns that take the "kasrah" on the second letter are the exception and not the general rule. Why include "masjid" in those exceptions? Also, if you look more closely you will see that those exceptions matli`, maghrib, and mashriq are not strictly names of location but are also used to denote the time of an event so this would explain the exception.
In summary, you have not said anything more than repeating the traditionalists excuses that MSM Saifullah already said, and which actually inadvertently destroy the legitimacy of what is presently named Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa. It is not surprising that like MSM Saifullah and other traditionalists, you conveniently evade to address 2146
002.146
YUSUFALI The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.
PICKTHAL Those unto whom We gave the Scripture recognise (this revelation) as they recognise their sons. But lo! a party of them knowingly conceal the truth.
SHAKIR Those whom We have given the Book recognize him as they recognize their sons, and a party of them most surely conceal the truth while they know (it).Peace,
Ayman
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peace,
Raaajah, that is not pre-Islam evidence.
For mazhar/others, by pre-Islam, I am referring to the title, with a capital "I", so basically anything pre-Quran.
Ayman, you and I both know there are many problems with the traditional understanding of these terms. The one you mentioned is particularly problematic for them, and these are only some of them.
Here is another example for people to ponder on
1821 And like that We made known about them that they might know that God's promise is true and that the Hour there is no doubt in it. When they disputed amongst themselves about their issue, so said "Build over/upon them a building". Their Lord knows best about them. Those who prevailed on their issue said "Surely we will take* (to ourselves) over/upon them a maSJD."
*verb form 8, reflexive.Interestingly, almost all translators seemingly neglect certain aspects of this verse
Firstly, they imply a physical building was built (worse still, a Mosque) over them (i.e. their graves), as some sort of shrine in their memory, which is completely against the message of The Quran (i.e. no saint/human reverence).
Secondly, it clearly states there is a dispute and some said "build a building over/upon them" yet it later says those who prevailed said "Surely we will take (to ourselves) a maSJD over/upon them" clearly implying there must be a significant difference between each side's argument. If traditionally understood, the only difference is one argues for a building, the other argues for a Mosque.
Thirdly, the former expression uses "build a building..." and the latter uses "take (to ourselves) a maSJD...", as if they were both about building why not use the same word? Not to mention "take to ourselves (a building)" doesn't quite make sense.
Lastly, it implies the ones who prevailed had it right, so we must ask ourselves what is the message of this verse? Well, clearly for the people in question God gave them a sign in this story. After this lesson, they disputed, some said "build a building over them" and in-between the other side's argument it says 'Their Lord knows best about them' (also mentioned in subsequent verses), implying their number or who they were is not the point, thus no need for a building, and it is the outcome/lesson of the story that is important, hence it says those who prevailed said "Surely, we will take (to ourselves) an implemented acknowledgement/submission over/upon them". It should be noted that Asad makes a reasonable interpretation of the term "over/upon them" as "in their memory", thus those who prevailed got the point and took to themselves an implemented acknowledgement/submission in their memory, i.e. they took a lesson from God in their memory.
Also, in 1822 it says "do not dispute about them except with an argument obvious/apparent", and since The Quran does not clarify their number which seems to be the main dispute, the primary obvious/apparent argument is the lesson of their story, and this is what people should be reminded of. As a minor point, it can also be said that building a Mosque upon them may only serve to revere them and the lesson less so. If so little is known, perhaps a building was not built.
As a side note it is alleged Al Masjid Al Haram in Mecca encloses the grave sites of Ishmael and Hagar.
