why do imams scream in the mosques?!

MUNZIR_ALI

uhm.. ok, so i have this question which has been bugging me for a while, and is ONE of the reasons i go to a mosque very rarely these days.
why oh WHY do imams scream at the top of their lungs when giving a friday sermon in a mosque?! to top that off, sometimes they do that IN ARABIC!!! and i'm not talking about middle east here, i've had this experience for example in texas, georgia, puerto rico, and in manchester, UK.

first - the screaming part. since i grew up in northern europe and rarely heard anyone raising their voice either in a family setting, school or work-related environment, i've wondered for long if it is just my subjective opinion or cultural bias that makes me think that they yell, and make me feel that i'm being scolded for something.
i want to know if there are others out there who feel this way?

and second part - in arabic. now this makes no sense at all. why would a sermon in an english-speaking country be held in arabic while half of the audience is clearly non-arab?? isn't the PURPOSE of the sermon to convey an idea? if ~50% of the audience had no clue about what was being said then was this purpose fulfilled or did those people just waste an hour of their life? i believe it would be more fair the khutba be held in a country's official language (with translations into other languages if necessary).
it's not like islam is by the arabs for the arabs.

that said, i admit i have been to a couple of nice mosques also, in maryland where the sermon was fully in english and one in puerto rico where there was audio translation into spanish available.
sadly the positive experiences have clearly been in minority, at least for me. so instead of getting a head-ache listening to some dude shout his hat off in arabic i just don't go anymore.. giveup

what's your take on this?
peace

EDIT by khutba i meant the long 30-40 min lecture preceding the prayer.

IT's very simple. Because they want to scare you and brainwash you so that you'll do everything they say. jedi

Raaajah

A "Former" member of this forum told me, "just tell the truth about Jews on this forum and then note the responses, it will be easier for you to know the real face of many here". and how correct he was.

Princess
You cannot escape, please refer to this
??Yashu? (Issa) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.? (Gittin 57a)
Show me a Hadith princess as you shouted in your post which is more ridiculous then this for Jesus.

princess

Quote
i can bring you many more 'sahih' ahadith from islamic folklore that supersede your talmudic quotations by ridiculousness by far.
have a nice day

Please live up to your challenge. Show me you are really knowldgeable.
Waiting for your reply.
While you find your reply for the above, let me respond to those who think they know a lot about Zionism and Judaism.

Ayisha

A "Former" member of this forum told me, "just tell the truth about Jews on this forum and then note the responses, it will be easier for you to know the real face of many here". and how correct he was.
But you haven't told the truth about Jews nor have you any understanding about the differenc between Jes and Zionists, which is what you claimed.

Please live up to your challenge. Show me you are really knowldgeable.
Waiting for your reply.

anything to avoid the fact you were wrong?

While you find your reply for the above, let me respond to those who think they know a lot about Zionism and Judaism.

waiting..........

Raaajah

To Jaffar, Prince, Ayisha
Offcourse your un-stop able praises for Jews could be understood, but your thinking that Zionism is some thing other than present Juadism holds no air.

Let us start from Quran
582
You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

No matter how you twist the WORDS of Allah are there. And why they are the worst enemies, example
??Yashu? (Issa) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.? (Gittin 57a)

Why do you people forget that who started Zionist movement? what was the purpose? what were the Goals?
We discuss it in next post.

Raaajah

Ayisha

Please live up to your challenge. Show me you are really knowldgeable.
Waiting for your reply.

anything to avoid the fact you were wrong

take a break! are you princess, or her Escort?

Raaajah

To AYISHA, JAFFAR, and Princess
Now we move on further, The Zionist movement was started by Jews based on the teachings of BIble and Torah, therefore it is very clear that AYISHA, JAFFAR and Princess are trying to distort the facts or habe no Knowledge of what they are talking about.

ISRAEL WAS HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD, AND THE FIRSTFRUITS OF HIS INCREASE ALL THAT DEVOUR HIM SHALL OFFEND; EVIL SHALL COME UPON THEM, SAITH THE LORD
Here Jeremiah calls Israel "Reishit". Israel is the "Reishit", the First Principle for which the World was created. God created the world for the sake of Israel.

A LAND WHICH THE LORD THY GOD CARETH FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD THY GOD ARE ALWAYS UPON IT, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE YEAR.

In Israel live more than 5 million Jews. Jews from all over the world, from many different backgrounds and cultures now live in Israel in relative harmony despite some tensions and social dislocation that to a degree are largely inevitable. On the whole the Jews all live together well, work together, learn together, and serve in the Armed Forces together.
Those who do not get along in Israel go to the USA and get along with other Israelites

In Israel more Jews study Torah both full-time and part-time than at any other time in history. This is the will of the Almighty. We are commanded to study the Torah.
Britam study group

THOU SHALT IN ANY WISE SET HIM KING OVER THEE, WHOM THE LORD THY GOD SHALL CHOOSE ONE FROM AMONG THY BRETHREN SHALT THOU SET KING OVER THEE THOU MAYEST NOT SET A STRANGER OVER THEE, WHICH IS NOT THY BROTHER

The State of Israel represents a return to the Bible. It is the fulfillment of Biblical Principles. It lays the groundwork for a future fulfillment of Biblical injunctions. Even though many Jews today in Israel may not be as religious as they should be they are helping to prepare the way.
All those who believe in God and the Bible and in common goodness should support the State of Israel.

To be Continued in next post

Ayisha

To Jaffar, Prince, Ayisha
Offcourse your un-stop able praises for Jews could be understood, but your thinking that Zionism is some thing other than present Juadism holds no air.
couldnt be bothered to read what I posted? never mind

Let us start from Quran
582
You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

No matter how you twist the WORDS of Allah are there. And why they are the worst enemies, example
??Yashu? (Issa) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.? (Gittin 57a)

Why do you people forget that who started Zionist movement? what was the purpose? what were the Goals?
We discuss it in next post.

yes lets look at another verse
009.097
YUSUFALI The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.

009.101
YUSUFALI Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk they are obstinate in hypocrisy thou knowest them not We know them twice shall We punish them and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.

Who are the guardians of the Kaaba? Where is the main place for islamic material and belief? Ah yes, Saudi Arabia, ARABS. That is your cue to say "'desert Arabs' are not all Arabs" to which I will reply 'Jews are not all Zionists'

Now lets look at what Allah says about jews who follow the Jewish scripture
002.062
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

005.069
YUSUFALI Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

see there is a difference in some Jews in the same way as there is a difference in some Christians and some Muslims but your blind prejudices keep your eyes firmly closed.

Ayisha

To AYISHA, JAFFAR, and Princess
Now we move on further, The Zionist movement was started by Jews based on the teachings of BIble and Torah, therefore it is very clear that AYISHA, JAFFAR and Princess are trying to distort the facts or habe no Knowledge of what they are talking about.

ISRAEL WAS HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD, AND THE FIRSTFRUITS OF HIS INCREASE ALL THAT DEVOUR HIM SHALL OFFEND; EVIL SHALL COME UPON THEM, SAITH THE LORD
Here Jeremiah calls Israel "Reishit". Israel is the "Reishit", the First Principle for which the World was created. God created the world for the sake of Israel.

A LAND WHICH THE LORD THY GOD CARETH FOR THE EYES OF THE LORD THY GOD ARE ALWAYS UPON IT, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE YEAR EVEN UNTO THE END OF THE YEAR.

In Israel live more than 5 million Jews. Jews from all over the world, from many different backgrounds and cultures now live in Israel in relative harmony despite some tensions and social dislocation that to a degree are largely inevitable. On the whole the Jews all live together well, work together, learn together, and serve in the Armed Forces together.
Those who do not get along in Israel go to the USA and get along with other Israelites
Britam study group

THOU SHALT IN ANY WISE SET HIM KING OVER THEE, WHOM THE LORD THY GOD SHALL CHOOSE ONE FROM AMONG THY BRETHREN SHALT THOU SET KING OVER THEE THOU MAYEST NOT SET A STRANGER OVER THEE, WHICH IS NOT THY BROTHER

The State of Israel represents a return to the Bible. It is the fulfillment of Biblical Principles. It lays the groundwork for a future fulfillment of Biblical injunctions. Even though many Jews today in Israel may not be as religious as they should be they are helping to prepare the way.
All those who believe in God and the Bible and in common goodness should support the State of Israel.

To be Continued in next post

Just a correction for you raaaaaaaaajah, The Torah is what you are quoting from which ALLAH sent the Jews, The Jews have NOTHING to do with the BIBLE, that's Christians.

Raaajah

Ayisha you just keep on posting for sake of posting, without considering the quality of your posts, and you make yourself a laughing stock often.
Ayisha

Just a correction for you raaaaaaaaajah, The Torah is what you are quoting from which ALLAH sent the Jews, The Jews have NOTHING to do with the BIBLE, that's Christians

In academic circles, the more neutral term Hebrew Bible is commonly used to refer to the Tanakh.

and I am sure you know what Tanakh is?

Ayisha

009.097
YUSUFALI The Arabs of the desert are the worst in Unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance of the command which Allah hath sent down to His Messenger But Allah is All-knowing, All-Wise.

009.101
YUSUFALI Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk they are obstinate in hypocrisy thou knowest them not We know them twice shall We punish them and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.

Who are the guardians of the Kaaba? Where is the main place for islamic material and belief? Ah yes, Saudi Arabia, ARABS. That is your cue to say "'desert Arabs' are not all Arabs" to which I will reply 'Jews are not all Zionists'

another tu quoque fallecy. Let others give it a try to favor Jews and to show me how Zionist and PRESENT day Jews are different. You have failed miserably.

princess

582
You will find that the worst enemies of the believers are the Jews and the idol worshipers. And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian." This is because they have priests and monks among them, and they are not arrogant.

you're quoting quran out of context. why did you not add verses that came just before this one? it talks about a GROUP of misguided people from among the children of israel at the time of this revelation, check 578-82.

Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

firstly, even at the time of revelation (with historical context) it was applicable only to those among jews who were misguided, how can it be applicable NOW, and to ALL jews? )
instead

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

refer to what ayisha posted ealier

009.101
YUSUFALI Certain of the desert Arabs round about you are hypocrites, as well as (desert Arabs) among the Medina folk they are obstinate in hypocrisy thou knowest them not We know them twice shall We punish them and in addition shall they be sent to a grievous penalty.

now, does that mean that ALL the arabs in the world today are hypocrites? or just the ones that the verse specifically referred to, in its historical context?

have you asked yourself WHY do you have so much hate for different groups of people (like women, or jews)?
consider this verse

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just that is next to piety and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

nobody here condones or promotes zionism, but the way you are trying to smear ALL jews is just not FAIR. and many people here care for what is fair, therefore your slander touches our sense of justice.

i am not saying that all jews are good & perfect, there are good and bad people from among any group of humans, so you can't just generalize and put 14 million people under one big fat prejudiced umbrella!
have you personally met even one jewish person in your life?

??Yashu? (Issa) is in Hell being boiled in hot excrement.? (Gittin 57a)

where is the proof that yeshu here means THAT yehoshua or jesus, the son of mary?
there are several occurrences of 'yeshu' in the babylonian talmud, for example (from wiki)

Yeshu ben Pandera, cited as the teacher of a second century CE heretic (Chullin 222-24, Avodah Zarah 16b-17a)
A sorcerer who had been stoned on the eve of one Passover. (Sanhedrin 43a)
An example of a "son who burns his food in public" (Sanhedrin 103a, Berakhot 17b) identified as Manasseh of Judah son of Hezekiah in the passages as well as in a corresponding account in the Shulchan Arukh.
An idolatrous former student of the early first century BCE rabbi Yehoshua ben Perachiah. (Sanhedrin 107b).
The spirit of a foreign enemy of Israel summoned by Onkelos (Gittin 56b, 57a)

interpretations of 'yeshu'

The Tannaim and Amoraim who recorded the accounts in the Talmud and Tosefta use the term Yeshu as a designation in Sanhedrin 103a and Berakhot 17b in place of King Manasseh's real name. Sanhedrin 107b uses it for a Hasmonean era individual who in an earlier account (Jerusalem Talmud Chagigah 22) is anonymous. In Gittin 56b, 57a it is used for one of three foreign enemies of Israel, the other two being from past and present with Yeshu representing a third not identified with any past or present event. No explicit explanation is given for the term. The earliest explicit explanation comes instead from the mediaeval Toldoth Yeshu narratives which explain it as an acronym for the curse formula yimmach shemo vezikhro meaning "may his name and memory be obliterated" used for enemies of the Jewish people.

please refer to http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshu for more details.

the fact is that WE DO NOT KNOW whether reference is made to jesus the prophet, or any other character, so please don't present this as a confirmed fact.
even IF it refers to jesus, it only shows ignorance and closed-mindedness of some people of that time. surely, you can relate to these states of mind )

anyway, how is that relevant to prove any of your statements about zionism and judaism being one and the same? it isn't.

princess

Peace be upon you,
with all due Respect.

Thank you, sister.

Same here, I was and still am soooooo hooked and totally attracted to Alias, I mean the series is ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS!
I loved Sydney all the way, the story and the plot is fantastic, how she has all these different relationships and especially her anger towards Sloane and her plan of bringing him down and this plan keeps her going, beautiful writing.

There were several scenes where they shot them on fake locations.
Regarding Jennifer's make-up, I was just kidding, I always start with a joke or try a new joke out there. )

Make-up doesn't scare me at all nor does it distract me but if we had a woman with make-up leading a prayer, I don't think certain people would be able to focus, maybe, God knows best. It would be better if she had no make-up since she would perform ablution few seconds prior to the prayer, right?

May God increase us in knowledge.
Peace be upon you.

peace, alen!

i think you're right. make-up, as well as clothes, should correspond to the event one is attending. there is absolutely no need to flaunt those smoky eyes and new lip-gloss attending or leading the prayer
i'd go with no make up at all, or natural 'almost-bare' invisible kind of make-up )

maybe something like this
http//blog.newsok.com/gossip/files/2009/01/ben-affleck-and-jennifer-garner.jpg
EDIT hmm, this image somehow doesn't diplay in this forum.
i meant this http//blog.newsok.com/gossip/files/2009/01/ben-affleck-and-jennifer-garner.jpg

instead of this
http//www.celebrity-mania.com/images/thumb/jennifer_garner.jpg

peace peace

Ayisha

Ayisha you just keep on posting for sake of posting, without considering the quality of your posts, and you make yourself a laughing stock often.
More blurb to avoid answering any questions and just to spit at those who are trying to educate you and aleviate your hatred.

Ayisha
In academic circles, the more neutral term Hebrew Bible is commonly used to refer to the Tanakh.

and I am sure you know what Tanakh is?
Yes its not the Torah and you were referring to the 'Bible and Torah' then went on to refer to 'Biblical principles' which in academic circles would mean the New Testament (Bible) and not the old testament. In academic circles it may be referred to as the 'Hebrew Bible' but never 'The Bible' and certainly never when discussing the Torah AND Bible would this EVER be considered as the Hebrew Bible being discussed. I think you came up with this to cover your error instead of just admitting you were wrong and stand corrected like a grown up can.

We are discussing the difference between Jews who follow the scripture (Torah) and Zionists who are following something different, they are as different as a sunni Muslim and a Quran Alone Muslim. If you had read one of my first posts properly instead of accusing me of attacking muslims you would have seen that, but I dont think you read much at all and just jump in with an arguement based on your twisted prejudices of women and Jews, as princess has already stated.

Ayisha
another tu quoque fallecy. Let others give it a try to favor Jews and to show me how Zionist and PRESENT day Jews are different. You have failed miserably.

I am not favouring anyone, I am explaining to you the difference between Jews and Zionist Jews and it has already been shown you from Quran that there ARE good Jews and bad Jews just the same as God knows there are good Christians and bad ones just like there are good Muslims and hypocrites who think they are Muslims, there is no difference. If I explain the difference between a Tiger and a Lion, which are both big cat family, does it mean I am favouring one?

wipe the dung of prejudice from your eyes oh small human being, do not be afraid to learn through errors. ;D

Prince

You two ladies (Ayisha/Princess) doing a good job with the counter arguments. Raajah you will have to swallow your pride and take this one on the chin because hate does not create peace/islam. Your hatred and generalisation of a religious group is very close minded...take this as an advice from a fellow brotha!

PEACE

princess

You two ladies (Ayisha/Princess) doing a good job with the counter arguments.

muchas gracias prince sun

Ayisha

yeah, ta muchly Prince peace

Raaajah

Alright, Well I like the style of you three congradulating each other bravo

Princess who you are trying to fool?

princess

where is the proof that yeshu here means THAT yehoshua or jesus, the son of mary?
there are several occurrences of 'yeshu' in the babylonian talmud

Quite funny! Do the Jews believe in Jesus as a Prophet, let alone Son of God? What are you talking about? Pure non sense. You asked me have I ever met a Jew? what do you know about me? Just ask any Jew if he believes in Jesus as a Prophet?

princess

the fact is that WE DO NOT KNOW whether reference is made to jesus the prophet, or any other character, so please don't present this as a confirmed fact.

hahaha..

princess

even IF it refers to jesus, it only shows ignorance and closed-mindedness of some people of that time. surely, you can relate to these states of minds

of that time? are these words eliminated from present day reading? come on don't try to make a fool out of yourself.

Let us with what excuse you come up this time
Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Rajah

and what about your challenge
princess
Quote
i can bring you many more 'sahih' ahadith from islamic folklore that supersede your talmudic quotations by ridiculousness by far.
have a nice day

Please live up to your challenge. Show me you are really knowldgeable.
Waiting for your reply

Raaajah

Prince

You two ladies (Ayisha/Princess) doing a good job with the counter arguments. Raajah you will have to swallow your pride and take this one on the chin because hate does not create peace/islam. Your hatred and generalisation of a religious group is very close minded...take this as an advice from a fellow brotha!

PEACE

Counter arguments rotfl

That is an old debating tactic, try some another bro? instead come up with some thing of relevance, in answering me that Juadism (after reading their scriptures and agenda and goals) is something different from Zionism.

Ayisha

Alright, Well I like the style of you three congradulating each other bravo

Princess who you are trying to fool?

princess
Quite funny! Do the Jews believe in Jesus as a Prophet, let alone Son of God? What are you talking about? Pure non sense. You asked me have I ever met a Jew? what do you know about me? Just ask any Jew if he believes in Jesus as a Prophet?

princess
hahaha..

princess
of that time? are these words eliminated from present day reading? come on don't try to make a fool out of yourself.

Let us with what excuse you come up this time
Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

Rajah

Raajah, when were these texts written? Did the Torah and Moses and Jewish texts come BEFORE the birth of Jesus or after? think about it. If before then how can they be writing in their texts about a man not yet born? If after then how are they anything to do with Judaism and what God sent to the Jews? The same as how can the hadith of Muhammed be anything to do with what God sent in Quran?

You still have no managed to grasp the difference have you ???

Raaajah

Ayisha

More blurb to avoid answering any questions and just to spit at those who are trying to educate you and aleviate your hatred.

I don't need any education which considers one being nude in front of one's family as fine (I can quote it), I donot need any education that teaches me to praise those who hates us, who are killing my brothers and sisters ruthlessly weather they call themselves Muslims or Jews. I donot need any education that teaches me to love those who blashmise prophets and their mothers. Sorry I donot need.

Ayisha

In academic circles it may be referred to as the 'Hebrew Bible' but never 'The Bible' and certainly never when discussing the Torah AND Bible would this EVER be considered as the Hebrew Bible being discussed. I think you came up with this to cover your error instead of just admitting you were wrong and stand corrected like a grown up can
.

Luckily you admitted that is what you think, and my only reply to this is Your thinking is wrong!
See my next post for detail

Raaajah

Before the next post, let me explain what you are trying to confuse, as your last resort

Ayisha

If after then how are they anything to do with Judaism and what God sent to the Jews? The same as how can the hadith of Muhammed be anything to do with what God sent in Quran?

You still have no managed to grasp the difference have you

Where did the "GOD sent in" came in to this discussion?, if you care to read my earlier posts, It said there is no difference between the Zionists and present day Jews, just scroll back.b It is you who have to manage to grasp the difference, just by calling some one "small human" one doesnot become "big".
These texts were written by Jews to whom Allah calls "Worst Enemy" and offcourse he cannot call it that to the scriptures he sent down? he calls the JEWS. If you still can't grasp than Allah HOOOOOO.