Don't lose the big picture!
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Good morning brothers and sisters
I was reading some of the older discussions here on FM, and I stumbled on something that a brother/sister named Abdu had written.
I cannot do anything but agree with Abdu. I think we are misleading ourselves a bit when we concentrate too much on one or two verses at a time, we forget to see the "big picture".
Please read what Abdu wrote regarding the meaning of 2238 (how many salaat). Topic started by Wakas back in 2004. Forgive me for not being able to attach links and such, not the computer-hacker-kind-of-guy.Peace to all
Thank u Wakas for opening this topic,
When I started reading Quran with free-minds translation I never felt the meaning of the 2238 verse has got any thing to do with routine or obligatory salat which one should perform after having ablution at prescribed times. In an earlier discussion one year ago a brother who started reading Quran for the first time brought up the following meaning of those disputed verse. Perhaps he was not yet moulded with the pre-assumptions to match the meanings of the verses with those similar to the traditional beliefs.
Later I used to follow that method of deriving the meaning of Quran without any pre-assumptions even though it was difficult for me to come out of the mould created by the sediments of traditions practised for almost 30 years.
If you examine these verses from 2221 to 240 all the verses are about marriage, relation ships in the marriage and then divorce/death and again remarriage outlined in a particular sequence.
In 2221 we get an idea about whom we generally should marry then goes to the subject of sexual relation ship ie sexual relationship to be avoided during menstruation 2222and says we can approach them once they are clean as how God taught us. The approach or relation ship towards the woman is given by an example 2223? as an approach similar to a cultivation and towards goodness. Then slowly go to the topic of disputes in the relation ship- 2224/225 says not to be strict on casual oaths in which couple often interchange words. Then comes to the point of serious oaths of divorce 2226. bythe following verse Allah gives the guide line for ending the relation ships in different circumstances , First divorce which u can remarry and the duration abstaining from them and then second divorce again in which you can remarry- gives guidelines to settle the dowry. Then gives the laws of third divorce- at this point one can remarry only after she is married to a third party and after getting divorced. Next verse gives the guideline how to treat them after the divorce that they should not be prevented from remarrying. Then goes to the topic of the children they give birth in terms of suckling and the responsibilities of husband and wife.
Then it deals with the topic of women in 2234 where they loose their husband by death and in 2235 it teaches how to propose to those widows and getting married to them.Then again comes to the topic of special divorce where women get divorced before the sexual relation ship. 2236-237
This is a very special circumstance where a woman get married and getting divorced before/after fixing the dowry but before any sexual contacts. This is not a normal thing to happen but again Quran is fully detailed and nothing is missed out.
Let us try to examine the next verses.
2238 Maintain the bonds; and a balanced bond; and stand for God dutifully
2239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.
And then next verse 2240 And for those of you whose lives are terminated and they leave widows behind; a testimony to them that they may enjoy for one year without being made to vacate. If they leave then there is no sin upon you for what they do to themselves in goodness; and God is Noble, Wise.If the sequence of narration is about marriage, relation ship, divorce ,death and then special divorce then 2238 and 239 also should talk about the same subject and not about daily routine or obligatory salat which one should perform after having ablution at prescribed times, since 2240 is again dealing with topic of the woman whose husband lives are terminated.
Now when we look at this peculiar situation of some body getting married as in verse 2236-237 and he gets a call for war. There is no guarantee he will comeback alive. So whoever in the situation of fear of death or war can divorce their women if he has not entered into a sexual relation ship with his wife and there is no sin on him.
On this context if we read the verse 2238 Maintain the bonds; and a balanced bond; and stand for God dutifully (? do not use the meaning? prayer? or ?blessings ? for salat) . This bond is talking about the bond between the woman who got divorced and her husband who divorced her beacuse of his life is in fear . This bond should be a moderate/balanced (al wusta) one and be dutiful to God ( ie fear God) that means not to exceed the limits or boundaries - do not get into deep relationship or not to hurt them by taking back all the dowries.
Once the fear is over
2239 But if you are in a state of fear, then you may do so while walking or riding.(they can do the bonding) If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know.That means once fear of death is over he can always comeback to her as how God has taught us in the previous verse, ie the remarriage. If he dies woman is allowed to remarry without the prescribed period of 4 months and 10 days.
Next verse 2240 further details about a woman who did not get divorced and looses her husband while in fear.
2241 says about how to treat a divorced woman.So think about the circumstance somebody gets married and before having a sexual relationship he has to go for a war and he dies. What happens to the woman if she was not divorced before the war she has to wait for 4 months and 10 days before she can remarry.
This is a very important topic where Allah has set out the guide lines so that these women do not suffer. These circumstances might have been common in those times when they had frequent wars.I don?t think Almighty suddenly brought the subject of routine salat in between the subject of marriage, relation ship , divorce/ death and remarriage. Here when we use word ?bonding? instead of ?prayers? or ?blessing? for salat ( which also suits in other contexts where it is used in Quran) the verse talks about the bonding between a couple who gets divorced before having a sexual relationship.
So the question of third timing of routine salat does not exist.
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It was taken from this thread
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0In which I also pointed out the flaws in the above
peace abdu,
Thanks for your analysis, however it has its problems, two points
You bring up the man being in fear issue and apply it to 2238 before it is mentioned in 2239. Note the conjunctive "fa" (so/then).
Your explanation of 2239 does not fit as it is about remembering God, not a past wife etc, making it an insertion/extrapolation.Abdu did not reply.
But I agree with the gist of your message, i.e. context and overall message/concepts/themes/principles is important
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html -
Dear Wakas
Yes, I noticed also that Abdu did not reply when you pointed out the flaws in his argument. And with all due respect, absolutely no aggression from my side towards you, but Wakas, I would not reply to you either....You showed that you did not understand his point when you pointed out his flaws. Sorry man, don't mean to be harsh.
The point Adbu had was that if the verses before and after were dealing with something VERY important about woman-man relationships, then how on earth can the verses 2238-239 describe something totally different and totally out of context.
Therefore Adbu's point was that it is no use to have verse 2238 as a base in a discussion regarding how many salaat or whatever we are to do in order to connect to God. Verse 2238 has nothing to do with salaat (prayer).I don't speak Arabic, but people I know do, and they say the Quran is absolutely beautiful to read, the words connect in a way that touches your heart. Keeping the beauty of the Quran in mind, the message regarding marriage in Surah 2 gets seriously abrupted and the "flow" of words are broken if all of a sudden a verse about prayers is thrown in the midst.....Any poet would tell you that. I think this point is missed in the link you provided. At least that point is important to bear in mind for us Non-Arabic speaking Muslims when facing the abundance of English translations of the Quran.
Sorry Wakas, I just feel that sometimes the discussions here on FM start off good, but they very quickly go into detail and all of a sudden there is an argument if the translation of a word should be "bond" or "connection"......thus my so sought after "big picture" is lost.
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Dear Emil,
I am assuming you read the thread, thus would know I do not agree with the traditional view of 2238, hence I'm not sure why you brought up the points you did above, as they are points I agree with.
You showed that you did not understand his point when you pointed out his flaws.
Perhaps I understood it perfectly and it is you who did not understand my objection? If you apparently understood what Abdu wrote, perhaps you can provide a counter-argument to my alleged flaws? Both Abdu and you are silent on the matter.
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I don't speak Arabic, but people I know do, and they say the Quran is absolutely beautiful to read, the words connect in a way that touches your heart. Keeping the beauty of the Quran in mind, the message regarding marriage in Surah 2 gets seriously abrupted and the "flow" of words are broken if all of a sudden a verse about prayers is thrown in the midst.....Any poet would tell you that. I think this point is missed in the link you provided. At least that point is important to bear in mind for us Non-Arabic speaking Muslims when facing the abundance of English translations of the Quran.
There is absolutely smooth flow of words and very softly moving into a different situation which will bring in a temporary alienation of relationship with wife. Next Ayat is for those who are alienating while they are leaving behind wives....................
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Dear Emil,
I am assuming you read the thread, thus would know I do not agree with the traditional view of 2238, hence I'm not sure why you brought up the points you did above, as they are points I agree with.
Perhaps I understood it perfectly and it is you who did not understand my objection? If you apparently understood what Abdu wrote, perhaps you can provide a counter-argument to my alleged flaws? Both Abdu and you are silent on the matter.
Dear Wakas
Let me first say that I am in no way trying to argue with you, I know your view of 2238 and I too do not agree with the traditional interpretation. You are very experienced, I can see that by reading what you write. My reasons for posting this in the first place is that sometimes we look for the complicated instead of the simple, we do not see the trees because the forest is blocking our view. Please keep this mind, what I actually wanted to point out, not to you but to all.
I read somewhere about a shrink asking an south american indian what he would do if the water turned pink. The indian not being able (because of his way of life and culture) to comprehend a hypothetical question got angry. His answer to the question was "What kind of question is that? Water cannot turn pink, your question is invalid and totally nonsense......"
That is what Abdu (and now me) is saying, To argue against 2238 being proof of number of prayers is invalid because 2238 does not have anything to do with prayer in the first place. Why? because a message of prayer in that particular verse does not fit the big picture.
I know you understand what I mean. And the point about Abdu not replying when you pointed out a flaw in his interpretation....well I think his non-reply is reply enough....By not replying he is telling you that he considers the whole argument to be invalid and non-existent because 2238 has nothing to do with prayer, just like water cannot turn pink.
We all have our different ways of arguing for our sake and standpoint. Abdu and I seem to use the same kind of technique, start with the big picture....and I must stress my objective again, I opened this thread as a reminder that sometimes it is good to look on a grand scale, otherwise we are at risk for getting into arguments about the little things.
There is absolutely smooth flow of words and very softly moving into a different situation which will bring in a temporary alienation of relationship with wife. Next Ayat is for those who are alienating while they are leaving behind wives....................
peace
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Dear Emil,
I agree, sometimes a non-reply is reply enough. For example, if I point out a flaw with someone's argument and they are silent, I will interpret that silent "reply" accordingly.
I think you give the Indian too little credit. If I was the shrink I'd make a trip to the Indian reservation and go upstream with some red food colouring and show the Indian just what colours water can go. ;D
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Peace,
Abdul approach instead of trying to fit squares into circles as many do when finally deciding to follow the Quran but still find it difficult to part with old practices, gives me a new way of tackling different issues with regards to Quran.
While in Hadiths and to make them credible, Bukhari used to introduce a verse as a support argument for his conclusion.
Example (Sahih Bukhari)
Book 008, Number 3243
Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported We were on an expedition with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and we had no women with us. We said Should we not have ourselves castrated? He (the Holy Prophet) forbade us to do so He then granted us permission that we should contract temporary marriage for a stipulated period giving her a garment, and 'Abdullah then recited this verse 'Those who believe do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Allah does not like trangressers" (al-Qur'an, v. 87).
The reason why I'm mentioning this is that when debating with members of my family about the Quran, and whenever I use a particular verse, they object by saying that I need to read the whole chapter or the previous as well as the following verses.
My reply was why do you accept hadiths then? but this is indeed wrong and weak.
The prevailing understanding of the Quran is that topics are scatted all over the 114 chapters, and if anyone want to understand a specific issue he needs to gather all relevant verses that use the same word, the example here is Salat..
and form this he can draw a precise and clear understanding.One of the problems with this approach in my view at the moment, is that it makes the Quran difficult to study as it requires someone with a google like type of mind search engine!
Regards
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Peace,
Peace,
Abdul approach instead of trying to fit squares into circles as many do when finally deciding to follow the Quran but still find it difficult to part with old practices, gives me a new way of tackling different issues with regards to Quran.
While in Hadiths and to make them credible, Bukhari used to introduce a verse as a support argument for his conclusion.
Example (Sahih Bukhari)
The reason why I'm mentioning this is that when debating with members of my family about the Quran, and whenever I use a particular verse, they object by saying that I need to read the whole chapter or the previous as well as the following verses.My reply was why do you accept hadiths then? but this is indeed wrong and weak.
The prevailing understanding of the Quran is that topics are scatted all over the 114 chapters, and if anyone want to understand a specific issue he needs to gather all relevant verses that use the same word, the example here is Salat..
and form this he can draw a precise and clear understanding.One of the problems with this approach in my view at the moment, is that it makes the Quran difficult to study as it requires someone with a google like type of mind search engine!
Regards
first, i personally think topics are not just "scattered all over the 114 chapters". I agree that reading whole chapter is a good idea. Even the longer chapters --An-Nisa is quite an example, how reading whole chapter from the very first verse would give the much more "whole" view that one won't ever get just by pulling out individual verses by the keyword(s) of his interest. No, from my experience, "googling" as we know it today is far from being the best way to understand any important subject matter in sufficient depth. There is obvious need for us to "follow the flow" of the Reading as it is presented. So this need should be kept in mind.
second, there are tools like corpus.quran.com that makes searching AQ by word/root much easier. Making it easier to group of verses with similar/specific issue at once. This is the flexibility of AQ that i think, results from its consistency. And which also helps us to expose the inconsistencies of any teaching that goes against it.
so we need to balance our study with both approaches--reading the whole and reading the details.
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Peace,
first, i personally think topics are not just "scattered all over the 114 chapters". I agree that reading whole chapter is a good idea. Even the longer chapters --An-Nisa is quite an example, how reading whole chapter from the very first verse would give the much more "whole" view that one won't ever get just by pulling out individual verses by the keyword(s) of his interest. No, from my experience, "googling" as we know it today is far from being the best way to understand any important subject matter in sufficient depth. There is obvious need for us to "follow the flow" of the Reading as it is presented. So this need should be kept in mind.
second, there are tools like corpus.quran.com that makes searching AQ by word/root much easier. Making it easier to group of verses with similar/specific issue at once. This is the flexibility of AQ that i think, results from its consistency. And which also helps us to expose the inconsistencies of any teaching that goes against it.
so we need to balance our study with both approaches--reading the whole and reading the details.
Well said handshake
