Giving Praise?
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Peace be upon you Joe,
I agree with what you have presented. May the God make us all appreciative.
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Peace Joe,
Salaam
Okay what I was looking for was an instance where h-m-d is applied to anyone other than God. I had a hunch that it could be applied on others from God in alquran and came across the following ayat.
1779
Wamina allayli fatahajjad bihi nafilatan laka AAasa an yabAAathaka rabbuka maqaman (station / rank) mahmoodan
The underlined portion shows me that God does indeed bestow h-m-d upon another. This word, mahmud, means praised, lauded. It indicated, with the preceeding ayat, that those who in fact reach out to God (salaat) may recieve h-m-d from the All-Mighty!
You forgot to speak about the word maqaman in 1779, the word "mahmoodan" is a qualifier of the word "maqaman".
- And from the night you shall reflect upon it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant/raise you to a 'high/gloroius/appreciated' 'rank/station' (maqaman).
To raise someone to a high/gloroius/appreciated 'rank/station', that doesn't mean Allah gives him h-m-d. The word "maqaman is a key word.
3144 Muhammad is but a Messenger. All Messengers before him have passed on. If he died or were slain, would you turn back on your heels? The System he has established is here to stay and to become a Beacon of Light for all humanity. If anyone turns away, he would not harm Allah. Allah will soon reward the appreciative. They will reap the fruit of the Benevolent System and then in the Hereafter.
Wama muhammadun illarasoolun qad khalat min qablihi alrrusulu afa-in mataaw qutila inqalabtum AAala aAAqabikum wamanyanqalib AAala AAaqibayhi falan yadurra Allahashay-an wasayajzee Allahu alshshakireena
What about Moses (moosa), Jesus (AAeesa), Noah (Nooh), Abraham (Ibraheem), the name of other messenger and prophets, Mary (maryam the mother of Jesus) ?
Should we translate their name?
Marie
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Peace be upon you Marie,
That stregthens the point, "mahmoodan" is a description of a level that humans can achieve.
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Peace be upon you Marie
(3144) And "muhammadun" is not except a messenger, had passed/expired from before him the messengers..
The one who is appreciative is not except a messenger, there were many just like that who have passed away from before...
All of them were "muhammadun".
What does the word "maqaman" indicate to you in 1779?
Further, there is a verse that says his "name" (description) shall be "ahmad". Why does no one have a proplem translating this form as a description, but has problems translating the OTHER form as a description? I think it is deeply ingrained tradition.
That aside, I look foward to hearing more of your understanding. I hope we can uncover some good info.
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Peace all,
Muhammad is Allah's Messenger and the seal of the prophets
3340 Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is Allah?s Messenger and the the seal of the prophets. And Allah, indeed, is Knower of all things.
Ma kana muhammadun aba ahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahiwakhatama alnnabiyyeena wakana Allahubikulli shay-in AAaleeman
Peace
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Salaam Marie
All the names are important. You cannot leave this out of the picture or you're bound to fail in your quest for concrete understanding, whomever you may be. I've been speaking of this for quite some time now. It seems our arabic speakers even themselves are blind to this and rather let it slip them by. So no, Muhammad is not Allah's messenger. Muhammad is not correct rendering of the true meaning of the word. Also a seal may be broken, a seal may be a sign.
Joe
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Salaam Marie
I'm not arguing with you at all. Sorry to offend you or to do lend whatever unpleasantries which may have come your way. You say I've lent no quranic evidence. Since when do you leave an arabic word the same without it having meaning? Okay, an important point, in the arabic we've got
Ma kana muhammadun aba ahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahiwakhatama alnnabiyyeena wakana Allahubikulli shay-in AAaleeman
Then you asked if we should translate all things, I said yes, and you leave one word untranslated. It is the underlined portion. I ask YOU why Marie? Why do you accuse me of not bringing evidence? The evidence is there, if it is a waste of your time then that is fine. The stew of kafireen is ever growing.
Ma kana muhammadun aba ahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahiwakhatama alnnabiyyeena
What??? How do you explain this ayat Marie? Are you saying muhammad is not the father of any man among the people? What is muhammad? How do you render an understanding of the word? What is alnnabiyeen, a prophet??? You speak to me of bringing no quranic evidence and yet you bring to me an empty word. Explain muhammad to us. Explain moosa or malik or malaika or nabi, etc, etc, etc. You have the language of alquran on your lips and from my vantage point it seems that you fail to utilize it. Would that Allah gave me your knowledge I would surely put it to use!
Joe
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Please do not withdraw from this discussion, while I respect your decision if you still choose to do so, I want to discuss this more with you.
(3340) Ma kana muhammadun aba ahadin min rijalikum walakin rasoola Allahi wakhatama alnnabiyyeena wakana Allahu bikulli shay-in AAaleeman
Is not appreciative anyone's father from your men, and but the God's messenger, and the prophets' seal, and The God is with every thing knowledgeable.
The real issue is how do we JUSTIFY making one from of the word an actual name, while th eother form is a description (ahmad/muhammadun).
Is there a grammatical rule I am unaware of?
(616) ...whose name (is) Ahmad (ahmadu)...
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Salaams nabi,idol,all,
From what you are reffering one would assume ,so apreciative could be the father of your women maybe?The women are not cancelled now are they?
Whats the word,leanagy /heirship, isn't Allah simply saying his line has ended,because as much i remember the arabs leanagy/heirship thing continues through the males only.
(And who knows if he had boys might have been like a kingship continuety.)
This is what i have understood from your discussion of it.
May Allah bless all.
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Peace be upon you brother Mz,
From what you are reffering one would assume ,so apreciative could be the father of your women maybe?The women are not cancelled now are they?
This reading(quran) is directed to the "male" principle of ALL HUMANS. Sometimes the mind projects outwards, sometimes it is receptive.
Whats the word,leanagy /heirship, isn't Allah simply saying his line has ended,because as much i remember the arabs leanagy/heirship thing continues through the males only.
The message is in Arabic because it was inspired to an arab. It is not an arab message, it is a human message.
(And who knows if he had boys might have been like a kingship continuety.)
This is what i have understood from your discussion of it.
Respected, but I think it is much deeper than that.
You have to get to a certain level before you can truly be appreictaive. I think that is the direction this verse is pointing us.
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Peace Kyle,
From 3340, I understand that Muhammad is Allah's messenger and the seal of the prophet, that seems clear. The seal of the prophet is one men who is called Muhammad.
AAeesa (Jesus) is also called "Almaseeh" the son of "Maryam" or "AAeesa" the son of Maryam.
This is my own understanding, I believe Ahmad or Mohammad represent the same men; the seal of the prophet and there will not be other prophet after him.
From 616 I understand that Ahmad is Allah's messenger and 3340 brings additional information, Muhammad is Allah's messenger and the seal of the prophets.
Chronologically, the name Ahmad (616) is given before his arrival and Muhammad (3040) is his name after the revelation. Ahmad / Muhammad are closely linked and have the same root.
If I'm not wrong, There is no verse where Allah speaks about the prophet during the revelation as Ahmad except in 616 i.e. before his arrival and the revelation.
Ahmad (before) Muhammad (after) is a complete sentence and has a deeper meaning, why did Ahmad "before his arrival and the revelation" become Muhammad after the revelation?
I think the response is in the quran.Marie
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Peace be upon you respected sister,
Thank you for continuing the discussion.
From 3340, I understand that Muhammad is Allah's messenger and the seal of the prophet, that seems clear. The seal of the prophet is one men who is called Muhammad.
Yes, that is what we all were taught, so our vision has been preset to that understanding, would you agree to that? But lets just look at another option, an option that makes the book universal, not trapped in time.
Yes, you are correct "muhammadun" is the messenger of the God (Allah). And "muhamadun" is the seal of the prophet. But who would this man be? We certainly cannot verify this mans exsistence. But the other otion that is awaiting us is that "muhammadun" means exactly what it was meant to mean, "appreciative". So this would mean that the one who spread the message is described as "appreciative" , the same way that one who follows the message is described as "submissive or submitter". And this description is the seal of the prophets. Please keep in mind that "seal" does not mean "end" or "last".
AAeesa (Jesus) is also called "Almaseeh" the son of "Maryam" or "AAeesa" the son of Maryam.
He is also called "the word of the God".
This is my own understanding, I believe Ahmad or Mohammad represent the same men; the seal of the prophet and there will not be other prophet after him.
Yes, I take "ahmadu" and "muhammadun" to represent the same man as well, and anyone who takes on the role of delivering the message. There is no evidence that there wil be no more prophets. A prophet is a person who is inspired with truth. There is no place that says there will be no more prophet. There is never a statement that the "end{" of the prophets, or the "last" prophet has come. The proof is that the God seals your heart when you do wrong, but that can be removed if you do right. So seal does not imply end.
From 616 I understand that Ahmad is Allah's messenger and 3340 brings additional information, Muhammad is Allah's messenger and the seal of the prophets.
So is his name "ahmadu" or "muhammadun"?
Chronologically, the name Ahmad (616) is given before his arrival and Muhammad (3040) is his name after the revelation. Ahmad / Muhammad are closely linked and have the same root.
Yes, adding "Mu" only means that this person has "hamd". Do you think that he has two proper names?
If I'm not wrong, There is no verse where Allah speaks about the prophet during the revelation as Ahmad except in 616 i.e. before his arrival and the revelation.
Why would the God give him a different name before the revelation?
Ahmad (before) Muhammad (after) is a complete sentence and has a deeper meaning, why did Ahmad "before his arrival and the revelation" become Muhammad after the revelation?
I think the response is in the quran.Please do not keep me in suspense. Let me have it.
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Peace be upon you Marie,
Respected sister, we are not to rush the understandings.
We can pick this up at another time.
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Peace,
I really like the thread! Even though it has developed in a different direction than probably intended by the Nabi
May I put my four cents in?
Cent nb 1
I would agree with idolfree1 that the phrase "the seal of the prophets" does not necessarily mean "the last prophet". I don't think that anywhere else in the Quran it is said that he was the last one. Unless I am mistaken here so please correct me.
I also remember reading that "(...) the idea that Muhammad is the last prophet was not created immediatelly after his death nor was it preached by Muhammad himself but it was being created gradually as a result of various historical processes, especially as a response to political disputes at the beginning of Islam." It happened within two first centuries AH and it seems that there is no coincidence in the date since the idea of ending the divine prophethood on Muhammad was the corner stone of sunnah (!). It gave sunnah its credibility as an additional source of guidance, so necessary especially in the case of the assumption of no more guidance to come. Plus there was the fear that the strength of Islam would be weakend by new prophetic movements and so-called "false prophets", many of whom appeared in Arabia at that time. There were even suggestions to treat Abu Bakr and Umar, the khalifas, as prophets! Finally, the idea of prophethood developed into the concept of mahdi while the Umayyads, afraid to lose power, proclaimed the division of human history into two eras that of the prophets and that of khalifas (meaning them of course). In order to accept that there was a need to finish the first era definitelly... and the whole theory was articulated in the year 743.
The process of accepting the idea of Muhammad as the last prophet is sometimes called "the congealing of prophethood" (J. van Ess) and that implies a long and gradual process. The first Muslims seemed to be unaware of the idea and that may be seen in one of the hadiths where Abu Bakr was to say after Muhammad's death that if people worshipped/ served Muhammad, he was dead, however, God was still alive if they wanted to serve Him; meaning the prophethood of Muhammad (a mortal man as all of us, as stressed in the Quran many a times!) ended with his death, while the divine guidance was everlasting and eternal.
Thus, the metaphor simply emphasised the confirmation, not the ending, of Divine revelation. Just as in the times long gone the author of a letter confirmed the authorship by a seal. I also remember reading a hadith in which it was said that Muhammad had a seal (in a form of a birth-mark) between his shoulders as a proof of being a prophet, which also supports the idea that the first generations of Muslims understood it as a confirmation, not finishing, of Muhammad's prophetic mission.
To sum up, the consequences of the theory of Muhammad as the last prophet were many, the most important of which are
- the birth of sunnah
- the idea of mahdi
- the universalisation of Islam and treating it as a religion for the whole humanity (because there were no more prophets nor Revelations to come).
An important disclaimer! I do not treat hadiths as sources of any guidance, not even as reliable source of historical information about Muhammad's times! But they reflect the understanding of certain concepts by the generations of Muslims who recorded them and thus may provide us with some information on the development of the theological thought in traditional/ sunni Islam, which was the point of this short "analysis" of mine.
Cent nb 2
I also wonder to what extent translate what is generally considered proper names (e.g Isa, Musa, Bakka, Makka, As-Safa, etc) and in what contexts and according to what rules?
Cent nb 3
"we are not to rush the understandings"
Agree 100%. The more we learn, the more we understand, and God guides those who want to be guided )Cent nb 4
I think that we should forget all so-far accepted and genarally held concepts, be it "Muhamamd a final prophet" or "immaculate conception of Jesus" or many other controversial issues. Let us analyse the Quran and let it speak for itself. Let's not put our "wishful thinking" or our ideas into its mouth.With peace