On the timings of salah - an indepth study

ths

So I had an extremely interesting conversation with a friend during this summer which led to a bit of an epiphany.

First some background information

Wakas' article, 'The Quran - True Sunnah of the Messenger' is an excellent one. It refutes one of the main arguments of hadith proponents, that Muhammad's classification as an 'uswatun husna' (excellent example) is a defines of hadiths. It shows how Muhammad's and Ibrahim's examples (uswatun husna) are not given in other books, but in the Quran itself.

Now we all know that the verses addressing the believers only speak of 2 or 3 prayers per day.

But I do not think that we have uncovered all the verses related to prayer, and why are we assuming that the commandments given to Muhammad only pertain to him?? He is, after all, an uswatun husna, and excellent example for us of the perfect Muslim, and his example is rigorously given to us in the Quran.

My argument is that

a) Muhammad's example is given to us in the Quran, and if he is commanded to pray 5 time a day, so are we.

b) That since the Quran is a book meant for all mankind for all time, the verses and commandments addressed to Muhammad in the Quran do not only pertain to him, but to all believers.

c) That we are assuming some verses on salah are only addressed to Muhammad because they are in the singular form, whereas we take other verses addressed in singular form to address all Muslims.

Methodology

I have included a good article by George Monnot on the times of salah from the Encyclopedia of Islam. I intend to study all the verses he has mentioned and break them down accordingly.

Identifying biases

I adopted the 3-prayers per day model a while ago and have been happy with this system. I didn't really question it until I had done all this research.

From the Encyclopedia of Islam, Vol. 8, page 926

D. The times of salat. In sketching the general line of an evolution which ends in the establishment of prayer as a pillar for the religion of God and of His Messenger, a thorny problem has been left aside which are, according to the Book of Islam, the hours and the times of official prayer? Was there in the lifetime of the Prophet a progressive organisation, the signs of which would be perceptible in the Kur'an?
To answer this question, it is not enough to base conclusions on the verses where the word salat is mentioned. It is necessary to take into account all the passages which mention a communal prayer of the disciples of Muhammad or present as a model his habits of prayer. Muslim prayer is born from the personal prayer of Muhammad. The most ancient Kuranic passages which give temporal indications are addressed to the Prophet. They all enjoin upon him nocturnal prayer (LXXIII, 2-7, etc.), and to this, one adds praise at the setting of the stars (LII, 48-9), another, invocation of the name of his Lord at the dawning and at the declining of the day (LXXVI, 25-6), the last, praise before the rising of the sun and before its setting (L, 39-40). No doubt from the same period is the reference to the dwellers in the Garden of Paradise who previously prayed on the earth, keeping vigil into the last hours of the night (bi 'l-ashar. LI, 16-1.
With different words, the same rhythms, still at Mecca, are subsequently maintained (XX, 130; XVII, 78-80; XL, 55), but it is soon observed that a prayer group is formed around Muhammad "Enjoin
salat upon your people" (XX, 132); "Stay with those who invoke their Lord" (XVIII, 28; cf. XXV, 64-5; XXXIX, 9).

In the years 620-4, the communal nature of prayer becomes manifest. The most ancient prescription first addressing the community of disciples seems to be VII, 204-6 (cf. XI, 112-4). In XXX, 17 18, the commandment given them is to pray to God evening and morning, then comes this phrase "To Him be praise in the heavens and on the earth, at the declining of the day ('ashiyyan) and when you are at midday (wa-hina tuzhirun}". To give here to the word ^ashiyy a sense other than that which it habitually expresses in the Kur'an (cf. XVII, 28 and XL, 55, parallels to XX, 130 or XLVIII, 9, etc.), would be arbitrary. On the other hand, the last section of the phrase does indeed seem to designate an additional time of prayer, the novelty of which is perceptible in II, 238 "Be steadfast in your prayers, in the median prayer as well (wa
'l-salati 'l-wusta)...".

The years following the changing of the kibla see the consolidation of the institutional nature of prayer. Then, as noted above, the link between ritual prayer and the communal tax becomes a great deal tighter (LXXIII, 20, etc.). In IV, 103, a degree of organisation emerges "Ritual prayer is enjoined upon believers at fixed times". Finally, in XXIV, 58, on both sides of the middle of the day (cf. II, 238, quoted above), there are named incidentally "the prayer of the dawn (fadjr)" and the salat al-^isha*.
In the Kur'an as a whole, the times of prayer are indicated with a richness of vocabulary which shows a practice still at the evolutionary stage. There are, it seems, three essential times (to which the median prayer is added somewhat later).

(a) At one of the "two extremities of the day" (XI, 114; cf. XX, 130), is the dawn prayer, fadjr, also called, with slight nuances, by a number of names
bukra, ibkar, ghuduww and ghadat, as well as "before the rising of the sun" and "when you are in the morning".

(b) At the other extremity, is the decline of the day, 'ashiyy, in other words the second part of the afternoon, in particular its final phase, asil, pl. asal, to which apparently corresponds the duluk al-shams of XVII, 78, as well as "before the setting of the sun" and "when you are in the evening".

(c) The nocturnal prayer is denoted by the verb tahadjdjad (hapax in XVII, 79) and by expressions such as ana^ al-layl or zulaf min al layl. LXXIII, 20, recommends moderation in long vigils of prayer, and the explicit inauguration of the salat al-'isha' could be ascribed to the same purpose.

Alongside this daily division, prayer is subject to another temporal determination, this time in the weekly context. This is the Friday prayer, mentioned in a single passage of the Kur'an "O you who
believe! When you are called to ritual prayer on the day of assembly, come quickly to the remembrance of
God, leave your business" (LXII, 9; see DJUM'A)

Article by G. Monnot

A breakdown of all verses relating to salah

731
O thou wrapped up in thy garments!
keep vigil the night, except a little
Half of it,- or a little less,
Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.
Soon shall We send down to thee a weighty Message.
surely the first part of the night is heavier in tread, more upright in speech,
True, there is for thee by day prolonged occupation with ordinary duties

NOTES

Addressed to the one "wrapped up in garments"

5248-49
Now await in patience the command of thy Lord for verily thou art in Our eyes and celebrate the praises of thy Lord the while thou standest forth,
And for part of the night also praise thou Him,- and at the retreat of the stars!

NOTES

Considered to be addressed to the Prophet because of 5229-30, 5233, - Therefore proclaim thou the praises (of thy Lord) for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou art no soothsayer, nor art thou a madman. Or do they say- "A Poet! we await for him some calamity (hatched) by Time!"

However, these passages are followed by a series of verses about the unbelievers, until 5244 when it returns to the singular imperative form.

7625-26
And celebrate the name of thy Lord morning and evening,
And part of the night, prostrate thyself to Him; and glorify Him a long night through.

NOTES

Identified as being addressed to Muhammad because of 7623 which says "it is we who have sent down the Quran to you" (singular).

5039-40
Bear, then, with patience, all that they say, and celebrate the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun and before the setting.
and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the night, and at the ends of the prostrations.

NOTES

Singular imperative form. Cannot find any reason that this would be addressing Muhammad.
Muhammad Asad's footnotes argue that this is directed at the believers, but the times stated mean "throughout the day".

5116-18
taking whatsoever their Lord has given them; they were good-doers before that. (death&#8234
They were in the habit of sleeping but little by night,
And in the hour of early dawn, seeking Forgiveness;

20130
So be thou patient under what they say, and proclaim thy Lord's praise before the rising of the sun, and before its setting, and proclaim thy Lord's praise in the watches of the night, and at the ends of the day; haply thou wilt be well-pleasing.

NOTES

Singular imperative. Probably thought to address the Prophet because of 20133 "They say, 'Why does he not bring us a sign from his Lord?'", which continues the singular form.

1778-79
Perform the prayer at the sinking of the sun to the darkening of the night and the recital of dawn; surely the recital of dawn is witnessed.
And as for the night, keep vigil a part of it, as a work of supererogation for thee; it may be that thy Lord will raise thee up to a laudable station.

NOTES
Addressed to the Prophet because of 1779 "the sunnah of those that we sent before you"

4055
So be thou patient; surely God's promise is true. And ask forgiveness for thy sin, and proclaim the praise of thy Lord at evening and dawn.

NOTES

Singular imperative. Doesn't seem to be addressed to Muhammad.

11114
And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night

NOTES

Singular imperative. Doesn't seem to be addressed to Muhammad.

3017-18
So glory be to God both in your afternoon* hour and in your morning hour.
His is the praise in the heavens and earth, alike at the setting sun and in your noontide hour.

*tumsoon comes from m-s-w and appears to come from "masaa2", which according to Lane's Lexicon is the afternoon, or sometimes the evening.

NOTES
This verse is related to the passage from Ency. of Islam

In XXX, 17 18, the commandment given them is to pray to God evening and morning, then comes this phrase "To Him be praise in the heavens and on the earth, at the declining of the day ('ashiyyan) and when you are at midday (wa-hina tuzhirun}". To give here to the word ^ashiyy a sense other than that which it habitually expresses in the Kur'an (cf. XVII, 28 and XL, 55, parallels to XX, 130 or XLVIII, 9, etc.), would be arbitrary. On the other hand, the last section of the phrase does indeed seem to designate an additional time of prayer, the novelty of which is perceptible in II, 238 "Be steadfast in your prayers, in the median prayer as well (wa'l-salati 'l-wusta)...".

2238
Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to God.

7320
Thy Lord knows that thou keepest vigil nearly two-thirds of the night, or a half of it, or a third of it, and a party of those with thee; and God determines the night and the day. He knows that you will not number it, and He has turned towards you. Therefore recite of the Koran so much as is feasible. He knows that some of you are sick, and others journeying in the land, seeking the bounty of God, and others fighting in the way of God. So recite of it so much as is feasible. And perform the prayer, and pay the alms

2458
O believers, let those your right hands own and those of you who have not reached puberty ask leave of you three times -- before the prayer of dawn, and when you put off your garments at the noon, and after the evening prayer -- three times of nakedness for you.

PRAYERS SO FAR

Pray during the night, specifically the first part of the night (al-layli) (731-7)
When you wake up (7eena taquum) (5248-49)
During the night (min al-layli) (5248-49)
At Dawn (At the retreat of the stars - adbaar al-nujoom) (5248-49)
In the morning (bukratan) (7625-26)
In the evening (aseela) (7625-26)
And a part of the night (min al-layli) (7625-26)
Before the rising of the sun (qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi) (5039-40)
Before the setting of the sun (qabla 'l-ghuroob) (5039-40)
During the night (min al-layli) (5039-40)
During the night (min al-layli) (5116-1
In the early dawn (bil-as7aari - su7oor) (5116-1
Before the rising of the sun (qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi) (20130)
Before the setting of the sun (qabla ghuroobihaa) (20130)
During the night (min 2aanaa2 al-layli) (20130)
At the ends of the day (different from dawn and the evening as they are mentioned in the same verse) (atraaf al-nahaar) (20130)
From the sinking sun to the darkening of the night (dulook il-shamsi ilaa ghasaq al-layli (1778-79)
At dawn (quraan al-fajr) (1778-79)
At night (min al-layli) (1778-79)
In the evening (al-3ashiyyi) (4055)
At dawn (al-ibkaar) (4055)
At two ends of the day (tarafay 'l-nahaari) (11114)
Approaches of the night (zulfan min al-layli) (11114)
In the morning (7eena tusbihuun) (3017-1
In the afternoon (7eena tumsoon) (3017-1
At the setting sun (3ashiyyan) (3017-1
At noon (7eena tudhhiruun) (3017-1
The middle prayer? (Salat al-wusta) (223
A portion of the night (adna min thuluthay al-layli wa-nisfahu wa-thuluthahu) (7320)
At dawn (salat al-fajr) (245
At noon (al-dhaheera) (245
In the evening (salat al-isha) (245

So to summarize all this information, the salawat prescribed in the Quran are

Dawn - 7eena taquum 5248-49, adbaar al-nujoom 5248-49, bukratan 7625-26, qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi 5039-40, bil-as7aari 5116-18, qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi 20130, atraaf al-nahaar 20130, quraan al-fajr 1778-79, al-ibkaar 4055, 7eena tusbihuun 3017-18, salat al-fajr 2458
Noon - 7eena tudhhiruun 3017-18, al-dhaheera 2458
Afternoon - 7eena tumsoon 3017-18, Salat al-wusta 2238,
Evening - aseela 7625-26, qabla 'l-ghuroob 5039-40, qabla ghuroobihaa 20130, atraaf al-nahaar 20130, dulook il-shamsi 1778-79, al-3ashiyyi 4055, tarafay 'l-nahaari 11114, 3ashiyyan 3017-18, salat al-isha 2458
Night - al-layli 731-7, min al-layli 5248-49, min al-layli 7625-26, min al-layli 5039-40, min al-layli 5116-18, min 2aanaa2 al-layli 20130, ghasaq al-layli 1778-79, min al-layli 1778-79, zulfan min al-layli 11114, adna min al-layli 7320,

CONCLUSIONS

Judging by other occurrences in the Quran of dh-h-r, "al-dhaheera" appears to mean "going out".

"7eena tudhhiruun" appears in 3018, and these two verses are key to figuring out this problem

3017 heena tumsoona wa heena tusbihoon ---- in the afternoon/evening and when you wake up
3018 wa ashiyyan wa heena tudhhiruun ---- and in the evening and at noon / when you go out

It is my opinion that the Quran is identifying 4 different timings here. It doesn't make sense for it to say "in the evening and when you wake up, and in the evening and when you go out", because "ashiyyan" always means evening/sunset in the Quran.

Therefore we must conclude that heena tumsoona is the afternoon, which it also means.

So this would make the verses

and in the afternoon and when you wake up, and in the evening and when you go out

or

and in the afternoon and when you wake up, and in the evening and at noon

My belief is that the most likely candidate for "heena tudhhiruun" and "al-dhaheera" is "going out", but if we accept heena tumsoona as a specific period, then this gives us 4 daily prayers, and "al-salat al wusta" would have no meaning.

Therefore the only 3 pieces of evidence for the noon prayer "dhuhr" is

The coincidence that it is called "dhuhr" and we have a situation with "heena tudhhiruun" and "al-dhaheera"
The fact that we need an extra prayer if we accept "heena tumsoon" as an extra timing for prayer.
This is the weightiest of all the evidence the hadith on the rak'ahs of each specific prayer is a mutawaatir prayer. See my previous post, On Salah and Sujood - an indepth study, to see my views on that.

And the only evidence for making "heena tumsoon" as an extra prayer is

The fact that 3017-18 would not make sense if we interpreted it as "evening" because "ashiyyan" already means evening in the Quran.

So I therefore must conclude that there is evidence for 5 daily prayers in the Quran, but that I do not find the evidence 100% convincing.

Also, we must consider that it is awfully coincidental that we end up with a question of 5 or 3 prayers in the Quran, when traditional Islam adheres to 5 prayers, and I don't generally believe in such coincidences.

Wassalaam.

SarahY

Peace ths

Ok interesting findings, one issue I'd like to mention is the mix up of SBH and salah. Tisbih and salah seem to be used interchangeably, do you not think they're separate entities?

About "wusta prayer", why would we need to be mindful of salat then "wasalawat alwust"? one might even extrapolate that salat al fajr may be more significant due to the reading being witnessed 1778 if one took that meaning

anyway, any other occurrences on wusta other than 2238? Doesn't seem so. Wust can also mean balanced or average, medium.

Asad has good notes on alwusta. Many people seem to think it means middle prayer

2238 (Asad) BE EVER mindful of prayers, and of praying in the most excellent way; and stand before God in devout obedience.

Lit., "the midmost prayer". It is generally assumed that this refers to the mid-afternoon (asr) prayer, although some authorities believe that it denotes the prayer at dawn (fair). Muhammad Abduh, however, advances the view that it may mean "the noblest kind of prayer-that is, a prayer from the fullness of the heart, with the whole mind turned towards God, inspired by awe of Him, and reflecting upon His word" (Manar II, 43. - In accordance with the system prevailing throughout the Qur'an, any lengthy- section dealing with social laws is almost invariably followed by a call to God-consciousness and since God-consciousness comes most fully to its own in prayer, this and the next verse are interpolated here between injunctions relating to marital life and divorce.(Quran Ref 2238 )

About timing of salat, I was thinking of something... There are verses of shortening of salah, so one may logically ask well how long is salah?? How do we establish an appropriate shortening/length.

I had a thought but I haven't checked to see if it's plausible but for some thoughts/discussion

1778 (Asad) BE CONSTANT in prayer from the time when the sun has passed its zenith till the darkness of night, and recitation at dawn for, behold, the recitation at dawn is indeed witnessed .

from when the sun has passed it's zenith till the darkness of night. would this for example be seen as from mughreb till isha (Declining of the sun till night)? so maybe salah is as long as 1 hour? or however long that timing is?

Wakas

peace ths,

Firstly, I did not write that article you referenced. It clearly says who wrote it.

Secondly, as I began reading your article it said "A breakdown of all verses relating to salah" then listed 731-7 which does not even mention the word "salah".

I didn't continue reading.

Please correct or identify your criteria of making equivalent terms first. Thanks.

ths

Salaam Wakas,

I did not write that article you referenced. It clearly says who wrote it.

I simply assumed that was your real name, as you have claimed authorship of other articles on that site.

Too bad though, because it is an excellent article.

I am not given the option to modify my original post.

Secondly, as I began reading your article it said "A breakdown of all verses relating to salah" then listed 731-7 which does not even mention the word "salah".

Not all verses relating to salah have to have the word salah in it. That is a naive way of looking at the Quran. You can't just type a word into the search to find out everything the Quran is saying about something - especially something like salah which involves rukoo3, sujood, and other acts.

Please correct or identify your criteria of making equivalent terms first.

I made my methodology quite clear. In fact, there is a big bold header that says Methodology.

I took Monnot's list of verses relating to salah and studied them.

And 731-7 is most assuredly talking of salah.

a) The concept of standing during the night in prayer is replete in the Quran.
b) It says to
c) Standing during reading of the Quran is expressed elsewhere in the Quran as salah.

In fact, I don't think I've ever come across any scholar who has argued that these verses don't apply to worship. What did you think they were talking about? Taking a pleasant evening walk?

Salaam Sarah,

About the wusta prayer, you're right in that it could mean the best prayer, or the most balanced prayer.

The problem really lies with 3017 and 3018. Because it only makes sense if it is talking about 4 different times. So if we take tumsoon and tudhhiroon as 2 different timings, then we have 5 prayers regardless of the meaning of 'wusta'.

Interestingly, though, there is a hadith that talks about the Asr prayer being the most important along with the fajr. I read it a long time ago and can't remember the exact wording, but the meaning was something to the effect of whoever misses the Asr and Fajr prayers is doomed - and the traditional explanation for this is that everyone is awake during Asr and so have no excuse to miss it as it is right in the middle.

Whatever the case may be, I find it interesting that the Quran may be identifying 2 important salah timings, fajr and asr, and the hadiths do so as well.

However, the meaning of wusta in this case doesn't affect the final outcome.

Ok interesting findings, one issue I'd like to mention is the mix up of SBH and salah. Tisbih and salah seem to be used interchangeably, do you not think they're separate entities?

This is a good question. I went with Monnot on this one simply out of respect for his scholarly credentials.

This was his take

In the years 620-4, the communal nature of prayer becomes manifest. The most ancient prescription first addressing the community of disciples seems to be VII, 204-6 (cf. XI, 112-4). In XXX, 17 18, the commandment given them is to pray to God evening and morning, then comes this phrase "To Him be praise in the heavens and on the earth, at the declining of the day ('ashiyyan) and when you are at midday (wa-hina tuzhirun}". To give here to the word ^ashiyy a sense other than that which it habitually expresses in the Kur'an (cf. XVII, 28 and XL, 55, parallels to XX, 130 or XLVIII, 9, etc.), would be arbitrary. On the other hand, the last section of the phrase does indeed seem to designate an additional time of prayer, the novelty of which is perceptible in II, 238 "Be steadfast in your prayers, in the median prayer as well (wa
'l-salati 'l-wusta)...".

So basically he concluded the same as me, that it is identifying an additional time of prayer - and that if we take this to be true, then wusta means "middle" and not "the most balanced".

The Encyclopedia of Islam had this to say

The term subha does not occur in classical Tradition in the meaning of rosary; it is often used in the sense of supererogatory salat, e.g. subhat al-duha (Muslim, Musafirun, trad. 81). Al-NawawI explains the term by nafila (commentary on Muslim's Sahih, Cairo 1283, ii, 204). Ibn al-Athir, Nihaya, s.v. asks how it is that the ideas of nafila and subha coincide. He answers that eulogies (subha) are supererogatory additions to the obligatory salats. So supererogatory salats came to be called subha.

Most importantly, the Quran is giving us a timing for these praises. Whether or not it is the same as salah is a good question, but the point is that something is supposed to be done at these times.

Also, verses like 1598 tie the two concepts together - tasbih and salah.

EDIT I should clarify a little more. I take these verses to be speaking of worship in general. Tasbih, recitation of the Quran, and salah, are all forms of 3ibaadah that fall under the traditional act of salah, as it includes tasbih and takbir, sujood, rukoo3, tartil and tilaawah, etc. Because if there is anything we've learnt from the perpetual bickering on salah, it is that it is a general conception of worship that includes diverse acts of a mental and physical nature.

Wakas

peace ths,

Thanks for answering.

Unfortunately, this assumption in your article underpins everything else in it.

ths

Salaam Wakas,

The Quran is a highly poetic book. I'm sure I could dig up several verses that don't directly mention something but are using metaphors or metonyms to discuss it....I'll leave it for another time.

The point is that the Quran isn't structured so that someone can simply come along and type a word into the search bar and print everything out. It is much more subtle than that.

Salaam Sarah,

I forgot to address your last point.

from when the sun has passed it's zenith till the darkness of night. would this for example be seen as from mughreb till isha (Declining of the sun till night)? so maybe salah is as long as 1 hour? or however long that timing is?

Well I interpret that verse as giving a time-frame to perform a particular salah. Also, there is a verse that states that one should perform salah however long you can do it comfortably - but I can't find it right now.

Also, Quran al-fajr - the recitation of the Quran during fajr is another interesting parallel between the Qur'an and hadiths - the Qur'an seems to be identifying two different acts of fajr - the salah, and the quran (recitation/reading). The hadiths also identify two different acts, as they state that one should read from the Quran until sunrise after having performed the prayer.

SarahY

The problem only become a problem if you take tasbih as salat. And it?s interesting that 3818 talks about His praise, wa lahu hamd, when salat?s purpose is dhikr (2014, 2945). So personally i don?t see them as problems because i see salah and tisbih as different things

Also if we?re going to take scholarly work into consideration, we should take other scholarly work into consideration. There is numerous indications that indicate 2 prayers a day was the practice.

Tsbih can be part of prayer i wouldn?t say it is salah though. In reference to 1598

I don?t have a problem of it being mental and physical, what exactly is the mental and physical nature, God knows best. Most people have different opinions on this
It might be time frame i rather see it as length of salah. If there is a verse of how ever long you can do it comfortable that?ll make sense. Because physical traditional salah only lasts 2 mins.

I seem to think Quran and salat have a parallel.

And come on, it would be unwise to think no hadith will have any relation to Quranic text.

peace

ths

I would make some amendments to this study after coming across more information.

I am no longer convinced that 3017-18 is talking about salah.

This is thanks to Loxbox's post here

I also realize that I forgot to account for the last appointed time in 20130, but this doesn't matter as it follows the same formula as 3017-18, the .

What bothers me is that the times mentioned to perform tasbeeh are identical to the times mentioned to perform salah.

So what is tasbeeh? Traditionally it is taken to be the formulaic repetition of "subhan allah".

But since the times mentioned in 20130 are identical to times mentioned for salah, is this simply a metonym for salah?

Either way, tasbih seems to be appointed for us 5 times a day, which is interesting in itself.

Wakas

What bothers me is that the times mentioned to perform tasbeeh are identical to the times mentioned to perform salah.

Either way, tasbih seems to be appointed for us 5 times a day, which is interesting in itself.

You sure about that?

I strongly recommend that if one thinks doing tasbih is somehow a synonym for salat, then simply note down the exact times for tasbih, and do the same for salat, and one should soon see the problem.

Not to mention there is never any mention of doing tasbih in any format or info on method or anything for that matter, as there is for salat.

ths

I strongly recommend that if one thinks doing tasbih is somehow a synonym for salat, then simply note down the exact times for tasbih, and do the same for salat, and one should soon see the problem.

In traditional sunni salah, and probably in shia salah as well, tasbih is done in every rak'ah. So for the tasbih timings to be the same as salah timings is interesting.

Not to mention there is never any mention of doing tasbih in any format or info on method or anything for that matter, as there is for salat.

You sure about that?

I strongly recommend reading Loxbox's post here. It is rather illuminating and describes the Quran's usage of the phrase subhan allah in the Quran. Because of it I am confused as to how to interpret occurrences of subhan allah and tasbih, which need more study.

How do you interpret 3017-18 and 20130?

Wakas

You sure about that?

Yes, unless someone can bring a verse to the contrary.

How do you interpret 3017-18 and 20130?

superlative / hyperbole / idiomatic statements. (As a side note, whenever the sun is mentioned, it always seems to be singular)

I compiled the timings of tasbeeh once and I found it was impossible for them to mean specific timings and/or synonymous with the regular/timed salat, no matter how many daily salat I chose. Unless I subjectively ignored some and kept others etc which of course is not a sound method.

ths

You sure about that?

Yes, unless someone can bring a verse to the contrary.

Wakas why do you act impishly sometimes?

I wrote

You sure about that?

I strongly recommend reading Loxbox's post here. It is rather illuminating and describes...

You completely ignored my response because you can't read Arabic, and instead quoted the first part of the sentence and respond as if no verses had been brought.
People have brought verses to the contrary. Just because you haven't come across them doesn't mean they don't exist.

Wakas

Please bring one then.

I actually can read* Arabic but only with tashkeel/vocalisation.

*to understand I'd have to have my resources/books with me of course.

ths

Please bring one then.

They are in red

Wakas

After my post above, I wrote the following
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-SaBiH-from-Quran.html

Conclusion

SBH/glorification of God can come in different forms, including expression through actions and verbally. If timed-SBH is taken as timed-salat then it is a minimum of twice daily (references one, two, three), with an optional night vigil which the messenger likely undertook regularly . If the messenger opted to SBH/glorify more than others, then the individual is also free to do the same.

agphys

@wakas,

http//www.19miracle.org/salats-mathematically-confirmed/

As-Salaatayn

Let me re-post this

Salaam,

This was a good topic. I am sorry I missed out on responding to it. I want to quote this and then respond. The following is from one of Wakas' posts. The color coding is mine.

Pray during the night, specifically the first part of the night (al-layli) (731-7)
When you wake up (7eena taquum) (5248-49)
During the night (min al-layli) (5248-49)
At Dawn (At the retreat of the stars - adbaar al-nujoom) (5248-49)
In the morning (bukratan) (7625-26)
In the evening (aseela) (7625-26)
And a part of the night (min al-layli) (7625-26)
Before the rising of the sun (qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi) (5039-40)
Before the setting of the sun (qabla 'l-ghuroob) (5039-40)
During the night (min al-layli) (5039-40)
During the night (min al-layli) (5116-1
In the early dawn (bil-as7aari - su7oor) (5116-1
Before the rising of the sun (qabla tuloo3 al-shamsi) (20130)
Before the setting of the sun (qabla ghuroobihaa) (20130)
During the night (min 2aanaa2 al-layli) (20130)
At the ends of the day (different from dawn and the evening as they are mentioned in the same verse) (atraaf al-nahaar) (20130)
From the sinking sun to the darkening of the night (dulook il-shamsi ilaa ghasaq al-layli (1778-79)
At dawn (quraan al-fajr) (1778-79)
At night (min al-layli) (1778-79)
In the evening (al-3ashiyyi) (4055)
At dawn (al-ibkaar) (4055)
At two ends of the day (tarafay 'l-nahaari) (11114)
Approaches of the night (zulfan min al-layli) (11114)
In the morning (7eena tusbihuun) (3017-1
In the afternoon (7eena tumsoon) (3017-1
At the setting sun (3ashiyyan) (3017-1
At noon (7eena tudhhiruun) (3017-1
The middle prayer? (Salat al-wusta) (223
A portion of the night (adna min thuluthay al-layli wa-nisfahu wa-thuluthahu) (7320)
At dawn (salat al-fajr) (245
At noon (al-dhaheera) (245
In the evening (salat al-isha) (245

...

It is my opinion that all of the times of prayer other than the times of tasbeeh highlighted in blue can be reduced to fajr and/or 'ishaa. (dawn and dusk).

The time in RED is not a time for tasbeeh or salaat.

The times in pink can be read as 'during' instead of 'before' in the sense of 'to stand before or to be in the face of something.' So 'in the face of the setting and rising of the sun.' As in 'We stood in awe before the rising of the sun and marveled at its great beauty.' The Arabic term 'qabl' also has this meaning as in 'in the face of' which is commonly overlooked.

Lastly, as far as what is in blue, tudh-hiroon as was pointed out before can mean 'to go out' or it can mean to speak up/out. And as was stated before tasbeeh CAN DEFINITELY INCLUDE but DOES NOT DEFINITIVELY IMPLY salaat. Al-wustaa can mean 'best' or 'most moderate.' Best as in quality, not which prayer is the best prayer to make.

In my opinion the most explicit explanation of the two edges of the day, being both day time AND NIGHT are dawn and dusk. And all other times mentioned for prayers can be reduced to these times, either giving details on the definition of dawn and dusk (edge of day, time close to sunset during the night, in the face (qabl) of sunrise and sunset, etc.etc., moderate prayer (wustaa), quality prayer (wustaa))

The times that don't match this can easily be seen as times that we should praise God, but not necessarily in ritualistic Salaat. However, there is nothing forbidding us from praising God in ritualistic Salaat during these times. It is just that these times, while for praise, do not have to be for ritualistic Salaat.

I hope what i have said is helpful.

Salaam

As-Salaatayn

I want to add that I can see how many see 3 Salaat in the Quran based on the alternate interpretation of dulookush-shams as zawaalu-shams meaning afternoon up to sunset as well as sunset and sunrise in its most literal sense. However, I think that this afternoon prayer is not fard. That is because I see this as the least supported, and most ambiguous, timing. Hence I take the noon/afternoon prayer as musta7abb but not fard. As I research, I am seeing that the Shia are the closest to the truth on this issue. However, I have not seen their evidence for 5 salaat during 3 particular times. I think I will continue to dig into their literature.

Wakas

19miracle.org/salats-mathematically-confirmed/

19 numerology cannot confirm anything..... at most it can only add evidence to the table. If you think it can confirm, then I'm not interested in further discussion. Rebuttal based on what Quran says
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

Timotheus

'Now we all know that the verses addressing the believers only speak of 2 or 3 prayers per day.'

Right?

'Establish salat at the ends/parts (2) of the day and the approaches/nearness/proximity to the night (3)'

looks clearly like 5 to me.

There are clearly 5 mentions of 'salawat' in the Quran

God uses word repetition as one of his signs eg day 365 month 12 days 30 etc