how to verify The Quran - and how to make a plane - and fly
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Salaam Brother David.
I agree with you. And I would add these things islam is not a religion, it is a system, a way of life. A system is not just about giving money to charity, or even freeing slaves. There are more than thousands of tasks in our deen. Therefore people can contribute to the society in plenty of ways. A relgion is about a couple of duties each people should do in a lifetime. A deen is about radical reform. A deen is something that should be established. When people understand the difference between religion and deen, they will se the true power of deen.
I find myself in agreement with you. I do not see islam as a ?religion? where one needs to ?worship? God in a way that one excludes oneself from the outside world.
Islam is a Revolutionary force. Its about world peace, reforms, education, fighting injustice, fighting corruption, freedom, Independence and many other things. If many muslims cooperate with eachother, they can create a social revolution on a global level.
I agree. Islam has an extremely wide scope, and I believe each one of use has our own skills and duties. A muslim doctor should give his all in providing better health to the community, while a muslim teacher should strive in improving education, et cetera. It is impossible to create a total reform alone, we need to strengthen our connection with each other in order to develop the state of mankind. However, before we talk about a global social revolution, we have to look at ourselves, whether we have reformed our ?inside?. Have we shunned all negative thoughts? Have we overcome our bad habits? Have we found the peace within? Essentially, Islam is about establishing peace, where we achieve both external and internal peace.
It is important to give money to the needy. It is important to give food to the needy. But it is more important to teach people to how make money, or offer them a job. If they work, they will become independent, and then they will get their own money and they will buy their own food.
Agreed.
When it comes to slavery, I have written some questions that people should ask themselves.
- What is a slave? Are there only some types of slavery? Is there any free nation on earth today?
Personally, I believe that a slave is someone whose life is governed or controlled by something, in expense of his/her ?freedom?. It is not as limited as physical slavery that we often think of. I see there are many types of slavery such as financial, sexual, physical, ideological and so on.
I see someone as a financial slave, if he is trapped in an unjust economic system. The most common example that I can provide you, is someone who owes a great amount of money and has to repay the debt under usury system. This person will spend his entire life trying to repay his debt (or rather, the interest charged on it) and ultimately he cannot accomplish anything for himself. I personally know someone who works 14 hours per day everyday for more than 5 years, trying to repay his debt. He lost the time to be with his family as he was enslaved by the system.
An (unwilling) prostitute is a slave too, in my opinion. In some parts of the world, there are women being trafficked and sold into prostitution. Everyday in their lives, they are doing things that disgust them to no end. I cannot imagine how physically and emotionally draining that will be. Ultimately, I see this as one of the worst type of slavery that ever exists. Unfortunately, not many are concerned about this issue, because they have the pre-conceived views that prostitutes are simply ?trash? and bringing moral disease to the society.
Another example that I can think of right now, is ideological slave. Many of us are already aware, that many inherit religion or ideology from our ancestors. Some people are so governed by their ideology or religion, that they miss the point of living. They live according to a rigid rules can?t do this, can?t do that. In the end, they become puppets who do not think on their own. Worst thing is, they do not realise that they are enslaved nor do they wish to be liberated. Only themselves can free their shackled mind.
In regards to your question about a free nation. What is a nation actually? The concept of nation, along with race and country, is man-made. It creates the sense of ?I am?-ness that divides us. Ultimately, we are led to believe that we should serve the nation that we belong to and think that people from other nations are outsiders. We do not think that we are one mankind. Essentially, no nation is free because its people are controlled by the winning party. The party itself may not be all too concerned with the welfare of its people, but rather, more on how to sustain power . That being said, the concept of nation/country/race is what makes us think that we are different and creates an invisible barrier between us. When I say I am Indonesian, and you are Persian, then you may think, oh, we are from different backgrounds. That itself will shape the way you behave towards me, you condition yourself, instead of think we are part of One. Don?t you think?
- When someone has the state as his/her provider, can he/she also be considered a slave?
It?s a case per case basis. We have to consider what the state imposes on a person to conclude if s/he is a slave or not.
- What is the cause of slavery? Is slavery the cause of slavery? Or is slavery the symptom?
It cannot be generalised, really. The issue is too complex to even hazard a guess on what causes slavery. I suggest that it may be due to the idea that one being/object/concept is more powerful than the others. Someone becomes a physical slave when seen as a lower and weaker being than his owner. Someone becomes a sexual slave when perceived as merely an object, in many cases, women are seen as lower beings who should submit to men. Someone becomes a financial slave when such system allows for money to be seen as the governing force.
But anyway? I am making no sense here.
- How can a person free a slave? What types of methods can a person use?
I believe freeing a slave is a continuous process. It may sound absurd, but after being ?enslaved? for so long, one may become attached to his way of living that s/he considers ?returning?, as a way to run away from the new reality that lies. We may help someone repay his/her debt, but if s/he has nothing to provide for her, s/he may think of ?seeking a sanctuary? in usury again, and borrow more money. We can take someone out of prostitution, but she may feel like a social outcast when she enters society, or she may feel endangered by escaping the prostitution business. She may return to prostitution just to escape this sense of guilt, danger and isolation, and live life as it has been. As painful as it is. You may help free someone from ideological slavery, and help him think for himself. But at one point of his life, he may feel insecure and unsettling, because he keeps having more and more questions, and the need to find the answers himself. He may return to his former life, by living like a sheep. Following what others tell him, but often times, it is easier to have the answers spoon-fed to him.
So what methods can we use? It?s not as simple as giving a sum of money to help them out of slavery. We should provide a means for them to provide for themselves. By helping them to get a job, giving them continuous mental/emotional support, and giving them the proper training/education for them to survive life, and to ensure that they do not go back to their previous life.
- Is someone focusing on the cause when they free a slave? Or are they focusing on the symptom?
Ideally, we should focus on the cause when we free a slave. To find the root of slavery, and abolish it altogether. However, as a human being, I acknowledge my limitations, and hence I will focus on the symptom instead. I should empathise with the slave(s) that I am concerned with, and hence I can give my all when it comes to freeing slave(s). At this stage, it is more towards freeing a prostitute (or more) because as a woman, I can feel for them. Anyway, I?d like to create a massive change, but at this stage, it is improbable. Hence why I feel it is best, in my opinion, to focus on the small things. Otherwise, no change will be made.
Don?t forget, saving ONE life is like saving the whole of mankind.
- If a slave wants to free a slave, doesn't he or she first have to be free themselves?
Depends what type of slaves they are. An ideological slave can free a financial slave, provided that he has enough wealth to free and provide for the financial slave. Likewise, a financial slave can help open the mind of the ideological slave through thoughtful and meaningful discussion. It is through engaging with one another that it can be achieved.
- Does it only exists physical slaves, or are there mental slaves as well?
I believe I have answered this question in my previous responses.
I know the answers to all these questions. The reason I am asking these thoughtprovoking questions is to let people reflect upon them and find their own answers."The universe is governed by law, not by chance." So if we focus on cause and effect, we can understand how slavery can be eliminated.
With all due respect, Brother David, please do not ever say that you ?know the answers?. Always bear in mind that you THINK you know the answers. We are only humans and we are bound to commit errors. Only God possesses the absolute truth and knowledge. Only God knows the answers to any question. I would like to advise you that the moment we assume that we know the answers, we will stop learning.
I want to share a great article with you. I think it might interest you. The article is about the difference between religion and deen
http//www.aboutquran.com/Islam.htm
What are your opinions about the article? It would be interesting to hear your opinions about it. I hope other members also would read the article.
I think I have read the articles before and I pretty much find it in line with my beliefs. Then again, you will find that a great number of people here think that way too .
There you go. I hope you didn?t snooze through all that. By the way, let?s stop being serious and check out what Urban Dictionary defines a slave as
Employee who is forced to work really hard for his meager salary.
One who works for EA games. the have to work from 9am to 10pm 7 days a week, and can sometimes get off from work on saturday at 630 pm for good behavior. they get no vacation time and as a result of their fatigue they, the make games of lesser quality. for god sakes docters dont work these hours and still get paid more. until recently they were forced to work these hours and do uncompensated over time. Do your self a favor and dont work for them.
- One who is owned by a master, and does whatever they tell them to without question or complaint. 2. Me
The married man
A nanny forced to see to every whim of children that do not belong to her for very meagre pay
Do you agree in any of the above definitions? I so totally can dig the fourth definition. Yes, a married man shall be a slave! To his wife! >D
Salaam.
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I find myself in agreement with you. I do not see islam as a ?religion? where one needs to ?worship? God in a way that one excludes oneself from the outside world.
Bravo.
I agree. Islam has an extremely wide scope, and I believe each one of use has our own skills and duties. A muslim doctor should give his all in providing better health to the community, while a muslim teacher should strive in improving education, et cetera. It is impossible to create a total reform alone, we need to strengthen our connection with each other in order to develop the state of mankind. However, before we talk about a global social revolution, we have to look at ourselves, whether we have reformed our ?inside?. Have we shunned all negative thoughts? Have we overcome our bad habits? Have we found the peace within? Essentially, Islam is about establishing peace, where we achieve both external and internal peace.
I agree. Everyone should do they are best at. And when ti comes to accomplishment, we first have to change ourselves. I have written a post about this issue, that might interest you. Take a look at it.
If we want to change anything in this world, we first have to change ourselves. Will problems in the world disappear if we work together? If people have not taken responsibility for their own lives, how can they take responsibility when they work together with other people? Imagine a carpenter living in a house with a roof that leaks. Can this carpenter go and build houses for his neighbours and his community? No. He first have to fix his own house. He has to fix the roof or build a completely new roof for his own house before he can help others. Why? Because if he do not do this, his family will get wet from the rain or hurt from the hail in the autumn. His family will freeze from the cold weather in the winter. And his family will get sunburned in the spring and summer. Revolution starts in the home. When we first have revolutionized our own thinking and our own lifestyle, only then we can achieve great things if we work together with other likeminded people. Because then we will have the time and the energy to change things outside of ourselves.Only when the carpenter has fixed is own house, he will have the time and the energy to go and buld houses for his neighbours. First he need to help himself and help his family by fixing his own roof, by fixing his own house. If he don't do this, he might have builded lots of houses for other people. But when he comes back to his own house, he is back to reality. And he is back to a roof that still leaks. And reality bites. It bites like a dangerous animal. Or imagine a surgeon that wants to perform surgery on a person with a diseased organ. If this surgeon has a diseased organ himself, then how can this surgeon perform surgery on other people? This surgeoen first has to fix his own body. When he is recovered and is healthy again. Only then he will be able to perform surgeries on other people.
As you can see from the post above, someone first has to change themselves before they can change their neighbourhood, country and one day hopefully change the world.
Personally, I believe that a slave is someone whose life is governed or controlled by something, in expense of his/her ?freedom?. It is not as limited as physical slavery that we often think of. I see there are many types of slavery such as financial, sexual, physical, ideological and so on.
Good points.
I see someone as a financial slave, if he is trapped in an unjust economic system. The most common example that I can provide you, is someone who owes a great amount of money and has to repay the debt under usury system. This person will spend his entire life trying to repay his debt (or rather, the interest charged on it) and ultimately he cannot accomplish anything for himself. I personally know someone who works 14 hours per day everyday for more than 5 years, trying to repay his debt. He lost the time to be with his family as he was enslaved by the system.
You are right. Let me add this according to some scholars who have studied the economic system, no one who use money is trapped in the system. This is explained comprehensively in films like "Money Masters" or Zeitgeist Addendum. The author and political lecturer G.Edward Griffin has also explained the falsehood of the economic system, in one of his books in a great way. You may wish to watch one of the documentaries one day when you have spare time.
An (unwilling) prostitute is a slave too, in my opinion. In some parts of the world, there are women being trafficked and sold into prostitution. Everyday in their lives, they are doing things that disgust them to no end. I cannot imagine how physically and emotionally draining that will be. Ultimately, I see this as one of the worst type of slavery that ever exists. Unfortunately, not many are concerned about this issue, because they have the pre-conceived views that prostitutes are simply ?trash? and bringing moral disease to the society.
I agree with you. And I think its a shame that many people are not concerned about this issue. However, we have to acknowledge that everyone contributes in different fields according to their knowledge, strenghts, abilities, and courage. For example someone might not have time to specialize in saving victims of trafficking because he or she already has specialized in another field, for example stopping greedy corporations destroying nature, and contributing to save the rainforest. All contribution is good contribution. Those who don't have time to save women from trafficking, can instead contribute by economically supporting non-profit organizations that are striving to save victims of trafficking.
Another example that I can think of right now, is ideological slave. Many of us are already aware, that many inherit religion or ideology from our ancestors. Some people are so governed by their ideology or religion, that they miss the point of living. They live according to a rigid rules can?t do this, can?t do that. In the end, they become puppets who do not think on their own. Worst thing is, they do not realise that they are enslaved nor do they wish to be liberated. Only themselves can free their shackled mind.
Well said. And this is what I call mental slavery.
In regards to your question about a free nation. What is a nation actually? The concept of nation, along with race and country, is man-made. It creates the sense of ?I am?-ness that divides us. Ultimately, we are led to believe that we should serve the nation that we belong to and think that people from other nations are outsiders. We do not think that we are one mankind. Essentially, no nation is free because its people are controlled by the winning party. The party itself may not be all too concerned with the welfare of its people, but rather, more on how to sustain power . That being said, the concept of nation/country/race is what makes us think that we are different and creates an invisible barrier between us. When I say I am Indonesian, and you are Persian, then you may think, oh, we are from different backgrounds. That itself will shape the way you behave towards me, you condition yourself, instead of think we are part of One. Don?t you think?
We should be concerned with the whole of humanity. Yes, all labels like pakistani, indian, indonesian, german etc. divide people. We are all human beings, and humanity is one.
Do we need nations?
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6UMT94jNGI
You are right. No nation is free. Its people don't decide the laws and don't decide other things. It is the political parties that decide. Most countries with democratical systems, are not real democracies. They are indirect-democracies (representantive democracies). People in such countries choose representants (minority) that make choices for the people (majority). And when a represantants (minority) decide what the people (majority) should do, then can we say that the people have power? We should ask ourselves this question.
The English think they are free. They are free only during the election of members of parliament.
- Jean Jacques Rousseau
I want to share some important information I have found about direct-democracy
"The central events of the Athenian democracy were the meetings of the assembly ( ekklesia). Unlike a parliament, the assembly's members were not elected, but attended by right when they chose. Greek democracy created at Athens was a direct, not a representative democracy any adult male citizen of age could take part, and it was a duty to do so. The officials of the democracy were in part elected by the Assembly and in large part chosen by lot."
Source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy
Personally, I support a direct-democracy. Many people claim that indirect democracy is based on falsehood. And I can not say that I disagree. The first time I read about direct-democracy, it truly opened my eyes. I read that book for it for more than 6 months ago. All my life I had believed that we live in a true democracy, but then I discovered that indirect democracy has many flaws. And a couple of weeks ago I found an article on the internet that explained how Gandhi was a supporter of direct-democracy. And I also read about his views on direct democracy in wikipedia.
Gandhi's model of Swaraj was almost entirely discarded by the Indian government. He had wanted a system of a classless, stateless direct democracy.
Source http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SwarajHere is an interesting quote I would like to share with you
The worst thing in this world, next to anarchy, is government.
- Henry Ward Beecher
It?s a case per case basis. We have to consider what the state imposes on a person to conclude if s/he is a slave or not.
Yes, it depends on the state.
It cannot be generalised, really. The issue is too complex to even hazard a guess on what causes slavery. I suggest that it may be due to the idea that one being/object/concept is more powerful than the others. Someone becomes a physical slave when seen as a lower and weaker being than his owner. Someone becomes a sexual slave when perceived as merely an object, in many cases, women are seen as lower beings who should submit to men. Someone becomes a financial slave when such system allows for money to be seen as the governing force.
The cause of slavery is the absence of a real Quranic system on earth. If a Quranic system is established on eart, all kinds of slavery will vanish.
There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root.
- Henry David Thoreau
I believe freeing a slave is a continuous process. It may sound absurd, but after being ?enslaved? for so long, one may become attached to his way of living that s/he considers ?returning?, as a way to run away from the new reality that lies. We may help someone repay his/her debt, but if s/he has nothing to provide for her, s/he may think of ?seeking a sanctuary? in usury again, and borrow more money. We can take someone out of prostitution, but she may feel like a social outcast when she enters society, or she may feel endangered by escaping the prostitution business. She may return to prostitution just to escape this sense of guilt, danger and isolation, and live life as it has been. As painful as it is. You may help free someone from ideological slavery, and help him think for himself. But at one point of his life, he may feel insecure and unsettling, because he keeps having more and more questions, and the need to find the answers himself. He may return to his former life, by living like a sheep. Following what others tell him, but often times, it is easier to have the answers spoon-fed to him.
My philosophy is similar to yours when it comes to therapy, and how to prevent people from going back to their unhealthy livestyles that they had before they became free. Therapy is not just about helping people to free themselves, but helping them to continue beeing free.
So what methods can we use? It?s not as simple as giving a sum of money to help them out of slavery. We should provide a means for them to provide for themselves. By helping them to get a job, giving them continuous mental/emotional support, and giving them the proper training/education for them to survive life, and to ensure that they do not go back to their previous life.
Yes, Indeed thats a good method to use.
Ideally, we should focus on the cause when we free a slave. To find the root of slavery, and abolish it altogether. However, as a human being, I acknowledge my limitations, and hence I will focus on the symptom instead. I should empathise with the slave(s) that I am concerned with, and hence I can give my all when it comes to freeing slave(s). At this stage, it is more towards freeing a prostitute (or more) because as a woman, I can feel for them. Anyway, I?d like to create a massive change, but at this stage, it is improbable. Hence why I feel it is best, in my opinion, to focus on the small things. Otherwise, no change will be made.
Don?t forget, saving ONE life is like saving the whole of mankind.
Yes. And until we have the will, time and resources to accomplish something great, we should focus on something little. Idealism vs practicality, what do we choose? We should choose the second option in the beginning.
Depends what type of slaves they are. An ideological slave can free a financial slave, provided that he has enough wealth to free and provide for the financial slave. Likewise, a financial slave can help open the mind of the ideological slave through thoughtful and meaningful discussion. It is through engaging with one another that it can be achieved.
Good points.
With all due respect, Brother David, please do not ever say that you ?know the answers?. Always bear in mind that you THINK you know the answers. We are only humans and we are bound to commit errors. Only God possesses the absolute truth and knowledge. Only God knows the answers to any question. I would like to advise you that the moment we assume that we know the answers, we will stop learning.
Thanks for the reminder. But don't worry about me Sister. I have not said that I know the answer to anything else than slavery. And the answer I know about slavery, are based on the Quran. God has given us the answers to this problem in the Quran. When I say I know the cause of slavery, my claim is not based on speculation or fantasy, but on facts and reality. The answers I know is not based on personal opinions, but on concepts from the Quran. The cause of slavery is the absence of a real Quranic system on earth. The answers to how we can eliminate slavery is in the Quran. If a Quranic system is established on eart, all kinds of slavery will vanish.
Remove the cause and the effect will cease.
- Anonymous
I think I have read the articles before and I pretty much find it in line with my beliefs. Then again, you will find that a great number of people here think that way too ).
Spectacular.
I so totally can dig the fourth definition. Yes, a married man shall be a slave! To his wife! >
A woman should only do four things in a marriage
- Cook food for her husband everyday.
- Clean the house every week.
- Wash the clothes of her husband every week.
- Obey all orders from her husband.
Lol. Just kidding
You talk the talk, just like many women, but will you walk the walk? I haven't met one woman who was domineering but later became cute and humble when they were in my company P Talk is cheap. Everyone can talk big, but few people can prove things.
When I get married (if I ever desire to get married) there will only be one boss in the house. And everyone knows who. Haha. Lol.
I have never met a woman that can dominate me. I am the only one in charge here. Haha. David dominates
Actually I believe a man and a woman should work together as a team. A man should not be a master and his wife a slave. And a wife should not be a master and her husband a slave. No one should control eachother or obey eachother. When there is control, there will be no freedom. And when there is no freedom, there will be no justice. Humankind is born free, and human beings deserve total freedom. See the quote from one of my posts below, if you want to know more about this issue.
Obedience will not make a relationship between a man and a woman healthy, loving. If you trust someone, you should let them be free. When you don't trust someone, it is like putting a bird into a cage. The reason why a man puts a bird into a cage is because he thinks it will escape. The man does not trust it. If the man trusted the bird, it would let the bird be free. And the bird would come back to him. A man should let his wife do what she wants to do, and know that she can make her own decisions. When a man loves a woman, he will trust her. He will not say to her You can not talk to other men while I am not around. Because he knows that his partner will not cheat on him. He trusts her when she is far away from him. He trust her enough to let her be free. Because he knows that she will always come back, pure, untouched. When she loves him, she will come back. And she will not do anything to jeopardize their love. Because if there is true love between a woman and a man, they will not let anyone pollute that love. Without trust, love can not exist. If a man does not trust a woman when she is far away, he does not trust a woman when she is with him neither. Trust is not something you believe in only when you are near the one you love. Trust is something which must be there all the time. Trust is something which is flowing all the time, just like a peaceful and quiet river. When you love someone all the time you trust someone all the time. Part time trust is not true love. True love is there all the time, therefore trust must be there all the time. If a man does not trust his wife when she is not around, then he does not trust her when she is around neither. And if a man does not trust the one he or she loves, and tell her to obey him, it would be like putting a bird into a cage. And when a bird is in a cage, it can never have freedom. Only when a wife is free, she can have freedom. And when both the husband and the wife are free, both of their wings will be free, and then they can fly anywhere they want, in the sky of love. And they can fly longer than ever before, in the sky of love. And they can reach unbelieveable heights together, in the sky of love. And then they will be happier than ever, in the sky of love.
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By the way, here is the article where they explain Gandhi's views on direct-democracy. It might interest you.
http//www.calpeacepower.org/0201/gandhi_anarchist.htm
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Do you have examples of 'You discover its truths, about life, growth, happiness etc and apply them, and the verification is given when its effect is exactly as described in The Quran.' Or is it just a feeling?
I certainly feel the same about the Bible. I have yet to find something in the Koran that is better than the Bible or to put it your way Is there a truth you have discovered in life that is in the Koran but not in the Bible?
That would be interesting to know.
Hello Wootah, thank you for your curiosity regarding my faith.
In one story, the Quran made a religion hating atheist completely surrender himself to God before even finishing the second chapter and continuing reading after that the effects at its peak can only be described as.... euphoria. Although before coming in contact with the book there had taken place some "opening up of the mind", or maybe more accurately, subtle guidance.Is there a truth you have discovered in life that is in the Koran but not in the Bible?
The truth i discovered was that everything that i had excpected God to be was described in the Quran. It not only omitted but completely refuted concepts like a son of God being valid, or God being made up of three. Things which i even as an atheist knew could never fit well with the concept of the creator of the universe.
It further more did to my surprise not contain any illogical statements and concepts that i knew were prevalent in both sunni islam and christianity.and the verification is given when its effect is exactly as described in The Quran.' Or is it just a feeling?
Well the verification of effects are both in empirical measurable form and also in a place sitting deeper withing one self which is hard enough to explain in words let alone make an accurate measurement of. However i can say this, after i let God into my life everything has turned upside down and if you knew me and how everything was going for me before and how it is now the results would be quite evident. But i dont believe it is ever like say, you give 100 dollars to charity and the day after you score an A at your test.
Worship God and strive to live as prescribed and im sure youll be graced with help in this life and salvation in the next.
And the "feeling" part, well simply put, there used to be no feeling and now there is. )Well, all this from just one book. That some book really. Of course i know the book is just a tool and what the real driving and guiding force behind it all is.
Hope ive given clear views in a good manner.
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@ Bro Wakas Aw, why not? I shall be the reigning queen D
By the way, it is funny that from all of the long-winded statements I made in that post, that is the one that catches your attention most p. Care to explain why D?
I never read all your post. Usually the start and end catches a reader's eye. Nothing unusual
I meant that if you have a slave attached to you, you are also attached to the slave, whether you realise it or not... by having your husband free and independent, it is only then can you truly be free also. Or at least, thats the theory.
I once read a good parable about attachment, but I cant find it online, so Khalil Gibran will have to do.
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Kahlil Gibran's poems are very good. Without doubt, that man had deep insight.
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I did I mistake when I wrote this paragraph in my post. Let me fix the mistake.
You are right. Let me add this according to some scholars who have studied the economic system, as long as people use money they are trapped in the system. This is explained comprehensively in films like "Money Masters" or Zeitgeist Addendum. The author and political lecturer G.Edward Griffin has also explained the falsehood of the economic system, in one of his books in a great way. You may wish to watch one of the documentaries one day when you have spare time.
The part in bold is the part I have fixed/changed.
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Salaam,
@ Bro David So mostly, you are agreeing with my responses? We can hence conclude the discussions . Just one point I have to convey regarding
I agree with you. And I think its a shame that many people are not concerned about this issue. However, we have to acknowledge that everyone contributes in different fields according to their knowledge, strenghts, abilities, and courage. For example someone might not have time to specialize in saving victims of trafficking because he or she already has specialized in another field, for example stopping greedy corporations destroying nature, and contributing to save the rainforest. All contribution is good contribution. Those who don't have time to save women from trafficking, can instead contribute by economically supporting non-profit organizations that are striving to save victims of trafficking.
I acknowledge that everyone has different skills, knowledge and passion. It is the reality of life, that we cannot just try to fight for everything. The idea that I was trying to deliver, is that not many people actually believe these women are worth saving. Many believe that these women brought it upon themselves. That they are causing moral degradation to the society and should just burn in hell. Simply put, these women are perceived are just trash. Even though I am sure it is much more than that.
Regarding you "knowing the answers", that was just a friendly reminder. It is great that you have conviction in what you have studied and analysed, but we still have to acknowledge our limitations that only God knows the answers. Slavery itself is a complex issue, and many claim they have studied the issue, and yet no significant changes have taken place. Anyway, in general (and I am not just talking about slavery), knowing the answers and obtaining knowledge are good, but what is most important is what you actually do with what you know. Knowledge without real implementation is useless, as it benefits none. So I take it you are ready to embark on a journey to start fighting slavery ?
Anyway, I am sure you have studied extensively and I applaud you for that. That being said Brother, and I hope I am not being too offensive when I say this; We need to be cautious and subtle on how we convey our views and knowledge. Your posts display intelligence and I recognise that you truly are sincere and devoted about Islam. However, I feel that sometimes your conviction sends the wrong message. It just comes across to me, a sense of "I am" that alienates other people (or at least, me anyway, I don't know about others). Hence why I was a bit uneasy when you said that you knew the answers, and wanted us all to reflect, because I got a feeling of superiority coming from you. I know you are honest and mean well, that you desire us to get real with our Deen and work together. I can only say that in real life, it takes more than the message itself, but also how we deliver the message. Subtlety goes a long way, so that we do not come across as soapboxers.
Once again, I apologise if what I said offended you in any way. I just find it unfortunate if all your ideas are not well delivered because of their execution. That's all I can say from me .
@ Bro Wakas I love Kahlil Gibran! You just scored major B-bread points from me for linking his "The Prophet".
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Peace Sister BornAgain
I acknowledge that everyone has different skills, knowledge and passion. It is the reality of life, that we cannot just try to fight for everything. The idea that I was trying to deliver, is that not many people actually believe these women are worth saving. Many believe that these women brought it upon themselves. That they are causing moral degradation to the society and should just burn in hell. Simply put, these women are perceived are just trash. Even though I am sure it is much more than that.
Good point.
Regarding you "knowing the answers", that was just a friendly reminder. It is great that you have conviction in what you have studied and analysed, but we still have to acknowledge our limitations that only God knows the answers. Slavery itself is a complex issue, and many claim they have studied the issue, and yet no significant changes have taken place. Anyway, in general (and I am not just talking about slavery), knowing the answers and obtaining knowledge are good, but what is most important is what you actually do with what you know. Knowledge without real implementation is useless, as it benefits none. So I take it you are ready to embark on a journey to start fighting slavery ?
I mostly agree with what you say. I am ready to move to the next phase in the spiritual journey of islam.
Anyway, I am sure you have studied extensively and I applaud you for that. That being said Brother, and I hope I am not being too offensive when I say this; We need to be cautious and subtle on how we convey our views and knowledge. Your posts display intelligence and I recognise that you truly are sincere and devoted about Islam. However, I feel that sometimes your conviction sends the wrong message. It just comes across to me, a sense of "I am" that alienates other people (or at least, me anyway, I don't know about others). Hence why I was a bit uneasy when you said that you knew the answers, and wanted us all to reflect, because I got a feeling of superiority coming from you. I know you are honest and mean well, that you desire us to get real with our Deen and work together. I can only say that in real life, it takes more than the message itself, but also how we deliver the message. Subtlety goes a long way, so that we do not come across as soapboxers.
Thanks for the kind words. And thanks for your advice. You are not offensive. Actually I like to get to get constructive critisism. In my view, when someone give constructive critisism, it's purpose is to make a person better than he or she already is. The opposite is destructive critisism. When someone give destructive critisism it is to put another person down, and to critisize without any valid reasons. You are right. Sometimes I have been to self-centred and forgot to include people. It seems like self-confidence can be excluding if overestimate it. I absolutely don't want to have an "I am" attitude (but I might have had it unconciously sometimes). And the last thing I want is to be self-righteous.
I have decided to become more humble and lower myself more to the level of people. I feel I sometimes have been running away from my weaknesses instead of facing them. It's easy to focus on our strengths but forget our weaknesses. I will definitely reflect upon what you said and see how I can improve myself. It's time to can change myself for the better.
Once again, I apologise if what I said offended you in any way. I just find it unfortunate if all your ideas are not well delivered because of their execution. That's all I can say from me .
You don't need to apologize. You haven't done anything wrong. I actually I appreciate what you told me. And you didn't offend me, what you said made me happy
I respect people that are honest and speak their mind. When we deliver our ideas we should have an approach that enables us to reach as many people as possible.
If you have any more tips on how I can improve myself, I would like to hear them. For example you can send me a pm with your tips.
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peace all,
So I was on a plane today, and a child happened to be sitting in front of me, and she was enjoying the flight, and asking her mum some questions, and that got me thinking about what I'd reply.
I thought about how the plane was made by people who use reason, science, logic, i.e. by people who think. And then I thought The Quran is for people who think. So, that made me think how do those who think verify their findings? Well, for the people who think and build the plane, they discover truths, about chemistry, physics etc and apply what they find, and their verification is proven when the plane flies. Then I thought that's the same way The Quran is verified. You discover its truths, about life, growth, happiness etc and apply them, and the verification is given when its effect is exactly as described in The Quran.
Of course, extracting and applying truths is one thing, but true striving is another, and if you strive hard enough, you're bound to fly. Just ask the Wright brothers.
Peace,
Well put. I particularly like the Wright brothers connection )
I have decided to become more humble and lower myself more to the level of people. I feel I sometimes have been running away from my weaknesses instead of facing them. It's easy to focus on our strengths but forget our weaknesses. I will definitely reflect upon what you said and see how I can improve myself. It's time to can change myself for the better.
Lower yourself to the level of people? What does this mean?
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Quote from David_K on Yesterday at 022721 PM
I have decided to become more humble and lower myself more to the level of people. I feel I sometimes have been running away from my weaknesses instead of facing them. It's easy to focus on our strengths but forget our weaknesses. I will definitely reflect upon what you said and see how I can improve myself. It's time to can change myself for the better.
Lower yourself to the level of people? What does this mean?
lol. exactly what I was thinking....two possibilities
- he didnt mean it the way it came out (i prefer this explanation for the brothers response)
- he did mean it ( which makes me feel bad for him...because he would probably get really lonely sitting on his high horse one of these days)
excuse my words brother david k if u didnt mean it the way it came out as.
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lol. exactly what I was thinking....two possibilities
- he didnt mean it the way it came out (i prefer this explanation for the brothers response)
- he did mean it ( which makes me feel bad for him...because he would probably get really lonely sitting on his high horse one of these days)
excuse my words brother david k if u didnt mean it the way it came out as.
Peace Sister rraza and Bro Jack.
The first is the right one
- I didn't mean it the way it came out. It came out wrong.
As you both know, I don't live in an English speaking country and english is not my mother tongue, so when I speak, things might come out wrong once in a while. By lowering myself to the level of people, I meant that i should never have an "I am" attitude (like Sister BornAgain said I might have had sometimes) and that I instead should have a "we are" attitude (be including instead of excluding). No one is better than anyone else. And only God can judge us.
I would appreciate if you don't assume the worst thing about me in the future. We are all brothers and sisters and shouldn't assume bad things about eachother
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I would appreciate if you don't assume the worst thing about me in the future. We are all brothers and sisters and shouldn't assume bad things about eachother Smiley
yes we are all brothers and sisters in faith. thankyou for clarifying that. May God bless all of us and guide us towards the truth.
peace bro david group
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yes we are all brothers and sisters in faith. thankyou for clarifying that. May God bless all of us and guide us towards the truth.
peace bro david group
Your welcome.
peace sister rraza group
