Childre of Israel , Media or jerusalem?
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It seems you are struggling with this Mazhar. You are trying to say that because among the Jews there are unbelievers that its the BOOK that is wrong or changed in some way. The Quran tells you countless times that there are the same with THIS BOOK and there are those that hear the message and still turn away, but that does not mean the BOOK is wrong either does it.
Do you believe the Torah we have today is the same as the one given to Moses?
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The question is this which will tell whether the torah you keep referring is Toraat sent by Allah or human's hand written from their own thoughts.
How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts? One good way to check Torah, if you are convinced you have solid proof that Quran is from Allah and not from Muhammeds thoughts, is to look up the stories that Quran refers to in the Torah, there are many.
I have proven to you that the Torah mentioned in Quran was the same one Allah sent to Moses so it was the same one almost 1400 years ago. Your job is to prove it was changed SINCE then. You will find it has not been changed and the Jews that DO believe and DO follow are still following that to this day.
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Do you believe the Torah we have today is the same as the one given to Moses?
I have just answered that in my post to Mazhar. It was the same up to the time of Muhammed, do you have any proof it has been changed since then?
you have to bear in mind this is the Jews HOLY BOOK, just as Quran is the Muslims HOLY BOOK and the believers among them have taken great pains to keep it from corruption although as with Quran we can stop the book itself being changed we cannot stop those who will 'twist it with their tongues'.
I know many muslims who will not even touch the Arabic Quran until they have done wudu, the Jews do not touch the Torah AT ALL with their hands, a stick of some kind is used to turn the pages.
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The 2 of them are Torah and Quran and nowhere does it say it is refering to stone tablets but it is clear the Torah was with them then and Muhammed says "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them." according to your translation. This confirms Torah as a guide as well as Quran and confirms Torah to be a BOOK.
Agreed, but where does it say that the Torah they had at the time was the authentic original? The challenge by the Prophet was to bring something from God better than the Torah and the Quran.
That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.It says they already have their own law yet they come to the Prophet in deviance. We can assume their "law" in this context was still authentic but what's to say everything they had in their Torah was authentic?
I think the other verses you quoted follow a similar line of thinking.
What I'm getting is that they obviously still had guidance within the scriptures that they had, but the Quran doesn't say what they had at the time was exactly the same as what was given to the old Prophets.
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The 2 of them are Torah and Quran and nowhere does it say it is refering to stone tablets but it is clear the Torah was with them then and Muhammed says "Then come to me with a book received from Allah which is a better guide than both two of them." according to your translation. This confirms Torah as a guide as well as Quran and confirms Torah to be a BOOK.
Agreed, but where does it say that the Torah they had at the time was the authentic original? The challenge by the Prophet was to bring something from God better than the Torah and the Quran.
Where does it say its not the original? Why would this even be discussed if it was not the Torah that ALLAH was challenging them about bringing something better? If it was not original at that time then surely Allah would have known and said so.That is not telling you about the Torah, that is telling you about the PEOPLE of the Torah.
This is confirming the Torah at the time of Muhammed was original
5.43 But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.It says they already have their own law yet they come to the Prophet in deviance. We can assume their "law" in this context was still authentic but what's to say everything they had in their Torah was authentic?
The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.I think the other verses you quoted follow a similar line of thinking.
What I'm getting is that they obviously still had guidance within the scriptures that they had, but the Quran doesn't say what they had at the time was exactly the same as what was given to the old Prophets.
Are you sure it doesn't say it is the same Torah?
It doesnt say it wasnt either and why would Allah be refering to it (Torah) as many times as He does giving very plain verses that what it was at this time is what He gave them? Thre is absolutely nothing in Quran to say Torah at the time of Muhammed is not what Allah gave to Moses and there are numerous verses to confirm it was. Quran CONFIRMS it. Why would Allah confirm a Book that He knew at that time was not the same as He had given originally?
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Where does it say its not the original?
Again, the challenge was to bring something better than the Quran or the Torah. It says nothing about the state of the Torah at that time.
The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.
Agreed, but you're missing the point I was making. They indeed had their own law in front of them but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic. The emphasis in this verse is their obvious disbelief, in that they are not sincere in their request of a decision from the Prophet. That's the ?story? of this verse i.e. they were going to the Prophet for a decision in the hope of a lenient one because they didn't like what they found in their own law. Allah says in this verse that they should have followed that law because God indeed sanctioned it, but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic.
Are you sure it doesn't say it is the same Torah?
Yes. Can you find an explicit verse that says it is? I'll change my mind if you can.
It doesnt say it wasnt either
Agreed.
and why would Allah be refering to it (Torah) as many times as He does giving very plain verses that what it was at this time is what He gave them?
Because the Torah is from Allah. That's not under dispute. But you're suggesting the Quran says the Torah at the time of the Prophet was the same as what was given to Moses. It doesn't say that, as far as I can see.
Thre is absolutely nothing in Quran to say Torah at the time of Muhammed is not what Allah gave to Moses and there are numerous verses to confirm it was.
The verses you've quoted so far don't confirm that the Torah at that time was the same as the one given to Moses.
Quran CONFIRMS it. Why would Allah confirm a Book that He knew at that time was not the same as He had given originally?
The Quran confirms the Torah given to Moses. That doesn't mean the Quran confirms every version of the Torah in existence at that time.
Many rabbinical scholars believe the five books of the Torah were bought together during the time of the Persian Empire from a wide range of manuscripts and oral transmission. I'm not saying they're right, but these people know more about the Torah than us. There also other theories too. What's clear is much of the original teachings of Moses would have survived, as proven by some of the Quran verses you've quoted. But to say that the scripture the Arab Jews had at the time was the same as the one given to Moses is not found explicitly from the Quran and is unlikely to be true in the light of research by Jewish scholars.
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How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts?
It looks strange question from a lady quoting dozens of Aayat in one go from Qur'aan. Perhaps there are dozen of Ayat on this topic saying it is not compiled and drafted by the Messenger of Allah. And this perception of some people is challenged by asking them to produce from anywhere from the whole of world a similar one if they genuinely believe if it was authored by him.
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I know many muslims who will not even touch the Arabic Quran until they have done wudu, the Jews do not touch the Torah AT ALL with their hands, a stick of some kind is used to turn the pages.
Such were petty tricks of clergy to keep people away from the Original Book and restrict them to what they gossip.
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Again, the challenge was to bring something better than the Quran or the Torah. It says nothing about the state of the Torah at that time.
So the challenge would be to bring something better than Quran and Torah even in a bad state? Please Mushu, don't insult Allah. If it was not from Allah then it would be easy to bring a better quide than that surely.The Torah IS the Law. This is saying that they still have this plain command of Allah yet they are coming to Muhammed and still turn away. Again if it was not authentic at this time Allah would have known that.
Agreed, but you're missing the point I was making. They indeed had their own law in front of them but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic. The emphasis in this verse is their obvious disbelief, in that they are not sincere in their request of a decision from the Prophet. That's the ?story? of this verse i.e. they were going to the Prophet for a decision in the hope of a lenient one because they didn't like what they found in their own law. Allah says in this verse that they should have followed that law because God indeed sanctioned it, but that's not to say everything they had in their scripture was authentic.
My whole argument is not based round this one verse. I know what it was about.
You are saying that Allah sanctioned the Law that was not authentic?
I will repeat myself again, the LAW = Torah is the first 5 books of the OT, the Law of Moses and that is IT. The rest of the OT is NOT the Law and is not the Torah that Allah spoke of.Yes. Can you find an explicit verse that says it is? I'll change my mind if you can.
32.23 We did indeed aforetime give the Book to Moses be not then in doubt of its reaching (thee) and We made it a guide to the Children of Israel.
be not in doubt of the book of Moses reaching Muhammed.
Because the Torah is from Allah. That's not under dispute. But you're suggesting the Quran says the Torah at the time of the Prophet was the same as what was given to Moses. It doesn't say that, as far as I can see.
see above verse and others I have posted in this thread. If this was NOT as it was then we Allah would have said so, instead the Jews are told to judge by what was revealed to them, if it was no longer the same then Allah would have known that and said that they had changed it NOT just by their tonges as they did by ADDING the oral Torah which was the hadith of Moses and the laws they already had BEFORE the Law. The Torah is still the Torah, the Talmud and Tanak are NOT.The verses you've quoted so far don't confirm that the Torah at that time was the same as the one given to Moses.
So you think Allah is telling the jews to judge by a corrupt book?The Quran confirms the Torah given to Moses. That doesn't mean the Quran confirms every version of the Torah in existence at that time.
Many rabbinical scholars believe the five books of the Torah were bought together during the time of the Persian Empire from a wide range of manuscripts and oral transmission. I'm not saying they're right, but these people know more about the Torah than us. There also other theories too. What's clear is much of the original teachings of Moses would have survived, as proven by some of the Quran verses you've quoted. But to say that the scripture the Arab Jews had at the time was the same as the one given to Moses is not found explicitly from the Quran and is unlikely to be true in the light of research by Jewish scholars.
Many Islamic scholars think the original Quran was burnt and the one we have now was done by Omar or Uthman??(I may have that caliph wrong)
Quran was recited and supposedly later written down. Torah was recited and supposedly written down later.
The oral Torah (This is NOT the Torah) was supposedly the saying and explanations of Moses which continued in oral form, just like hadith, and when eventually written down was called the mishnah, centuries later other commentaries were added and called the Gemarah, the Mishnah and the Gemara together are called the Talmud, a bit like tafsir ibn Kathir! There are 2 of these, the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud. These are divided into sections exactly like hadith of Bukhari.
The Torah that Allah speaks of in Quran is the LAW which is the 5 books of Moses only.
There is as much evidence that this is NOT the original as there is evidence that this Quran is NOT original and if we believe that then we might as well give up now.
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How do you prove Quran is from Allah and not written by Muhammed from his own thoughts?
It looks strange question from a lady quoting dozens of Aayat in one go from Qur'aan. Perhaps there are dozen of Ayat on this topic saying it is not compiled and drafted by the Messenger of Allah. And this perception of some people is challenged by asking them to produce from anywhere from the whole of world a similar one if they genuinely believe if it was authored by him.
taken out of context again Mazhar? You must really be struggling with this one ;D
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I know many muslims who will not even touch the Arabic Quran until they have done wudu, the Jews do not touch the Torah AT ALL with their hands, a stick of some kind is used to turn the pages.
Such were petty tricks of clergy to keep people away from the Original Book and restrict them to what they gossip.
The Muslim clergy or the Jewish clergy?
Neither keeps anyone away from the original book though.
You are really struggling aren't you ;D
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And how they accept/appoint you, the Messenger, as Judge when with them is the Tor'aat wherein is written the Command of Allah afterwards despite this Command they turn away,http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/005.%20Al%20Maida/temo5.043a.gif
and they are certainly not the believers.http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/007.%20Al%20Airaaf/Temp%2001%207.157f%20small.gif
who physically follow that Messenger who is the Chosen and Elevated from amongst those who were not given the Book earlier. That Chosen and Elevated about whom they find mentioned in writing with them in the Tor'aat and the In'jeel.Does your so called torah contain this in writing? If not then how could you consider it Toraat given by Allah to Musa alahissalam? If you dont find this written therein then either you have to treat your so called torah as nothing but jew hadith more unreliable than that of Bukhari's or else you have to plainly deny to believe in the word of Allah recorded in Qur'aan.
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who physically follow that Messenger who is the Chosen and Elevated from amongst those who were not given the Book earlier. That Chosen and Elevated about whom they find mentioned in writing with them in the Tor'aat and the In'jeel.Does your so called torah contain this in writing? If not then how could you consider it Toraat given by Allah to Musa alahissalam? If you dont find this written therein then either you have to treat your so called torah as nothing but jew hadith more unreliable than that of Bukhari's or else you have to plainly deny to believe in the word of Allah recorded in Qur'aan.
Yes it does.
I am the one here saying that I DO believe Quran when it clearly tells me Torah reached Muhammed and is the Torah Allah gave Moses and YOU are the one here DENYING that Allah even had any idea what He was talking about!
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Does your so called torah contain this in writing? If not then how could you consider it Toraat given by Allah to Musa alahissalam? If you dont find this written therein then either you have to treat your so called torah as nothing but jew hadith more unreliable than that of Bukhari's or else you have to plainly deny to believe in the word of Allah recorded in Qur'aan.
Just one minute here Mazhar. I have posted you verses regarding Allah saying He confirmed Torah was sent by Him, that this Torah reached Muhammed and that the jews of that time are told to judge by IT. Now if YOU do not believe what Allah says in Quran then it is YOU that deny the word of Allah.
Now unless you can bring me a surah saying this Torah spoken of by Allah in Quran is NOT the Torah that He originally gave Moses and was still in existance when Muhammed got Quran, then you are going to have to either agree it IS or agree that YOU deny the word of Allah in Quran.
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Just one minute here Mazhar. I have posted you verses regarding Allah saying He confirmed Torah was sent by Him, that this Torah reached Muhammed and that the jews of that time are told to judge by IT. Now if YOU do not believe what Allah says in Quran then it is YOU that deny the word of Allah.
Now unless you can bring me a surah saying this Torah spoken of by Allah in Quran is NOT the Torah that He originally gave Moses and was still in existance when Muhammed got Quran, then you are going to have to either agree it IS or agree that YOU deny the word of Allah in Quran.
I am talking about only that book which you refer as torah. You consider it to be the Original Toraat given to Musa alahissalam.
And Qur'aan tells specific statement having been written in the Toraat.Now if that torah of yours is the Original Toraat, as you persistently claim, then what Allah says is written in black and white therein, you must find that in your torah.
If you don't find it then either of the two statements you will have to decide, i.e.
(1) the book you refer as torah is not Toraat which was given in writing to Musa alahissalam, or
(2) you negate the statement of Qur'aan saying it was not written in Toraat given to Musa alahissalm.
I don't know why this simple thing you are avoiding.
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Just one minute here Mazhar. I have posted you verses regarding Allah saying He confirmed Torah was sent by Him, that this Torah reached Muhammed and that the jews of that time are told to judge by IT. Now if YOU do not believe what Allah says in Quran then it is YOU that deny the word of Allah.
Now unless you can bring me a surah saying this Torah spoken of by Allah in Quran is NOT the Torah that He originally gave Moses and was still in existance when Muhammed got Quran, then you are going to have to either agree it IS or agree that YOU deny the word of Allah in Quran.
That is a pretty interesting position. You do know that bits of the Talmud miraculously made it to the Quran. What are your thoughts on that? Plus there are parts of the ''Torah'' that are quoted in the Quran and it is simply not in the Jewish Torah!
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I am talking about only that book which you refer as torah. You consider it to be the Original Toraat given to Musa alahissalam.
And Qur'aan tells specific statement having been written in the Toraat.Now if that torah of yours is the Original Toraat, as you persistently claim, then what Allah says is written in black and white therein, you must find that in your torah.
If you don't find it then either of the two statements you will have to decide, i.e.
(1) the book you refer as torah is not Toraat which was given in writing to Musa alahissalam, or
(2) you negate the statement of Qur'aan saying it was not written in Toraat given to Musa alahissalm.
I don't know why this simple thing you are avoiding.
Not avoiding it at all, I answered it on the previous page directly after you asked it.
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That is a pretty interesting position. You do know that bits of the Talmud miraculously made it to the Quran. What are your thoughts on that?
which bits Rami, I would be interested to know and look at that too.Plus there are parts of the ''Torah'' that are quoted in the Quran and it is simply not in the Jewish Torah!
again which bits please.