How are the Sacred Months determined with Qur'an alone?

Mazhar

As for lunar years, Moses was clearly hired to do typical ranch type labor such as tending for sheep. Almost everyone knows the indisputable fact that labor related to the cycle of animals and crops follows the solar cycle and not the lunar cycle.

So you think he used the word before Musa alahissalam who came from capital of Egypt to convey him eight "cycles of animals" not years. Have you ever heard people mentioning number of years in this style?

ayman

So you think he used the word before Musa alahissalam who came from capital of Egypt to convey him eight "cycles of animals" not years. Have you ever heard people mentioning number of years in this style?

People who work on ranches say all the time things like "I will hire you for eight harvests" or eight harvest feasts (cyclical events tied to the solar year that have to do with animals and food, which is mainly what "hagg" is about as per 222. No sane person on a ranch or a farm hires a worker according to the lunar year.

MesMorial

How are these months "well known"? Can you provide any pre-Islamic source that shows these to be well-known? Did any of the people of the book know these months?

There is nothing implied that the "well-known months" are Dhu al-Hijja, Muharram, Safar, and Rabee? Awwal. Those are not "well known" even now let alone in pre-Islamic times.

I perhaps should have phrased it this way (thankyou for that)

"It is implied that the "well-known months" are Dhu al-Hijja, Muharram, Safar, and Rabee? Awwaland (see 91-5 below). They may not be the traditional non-consecutive months of Rajab, Dhu al-Qa'da, Dhu al-Hijja and Muharram..."

These links declare that the traditional months were in fact ?well known?

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

http//inthenameofallah.org/Pre%20Islamic%20Months.html

http//www.alsadiqin.org/en/index.php?title=The_Pre-Islamic_Calendar

But we (and they) have only the hadiths (as a historical source) to indicate Rajab is sacred.

Concerning Safar (it was sometimes considered sacred)

http//www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/books/86

91-5 was proclaimed on the day of the greater pilgrimage further supporting that the ?four months? refers to the four consecutive months after that.

?There is no dispute with Zul-Hijjah being one of the four sacred months. People are comfortable with having Zul-Hijjah as one of the four sacred months as the name of this month itself implies a connection with Hajj. Rabi is derived from the root word Araba which means 4. There are 2 months in the lunar calendar with Rabi in their name; the third month of the lunar calendar - Rabi I and the fourth month - Rabi II. Use of the word Rabi (implying 4) for the fourth calendar month is understandable, but why does the third month of the lunar calendar also have the word Rabi in it? It is fourth of what? It is the fourth of the Sacred Months beginning with Zul-Hijjah.?

(Submission.org)

Personally it is difficult for me to be certain and so it is the one point with which I am dissatisfied.

MesMorial

May ALLAAH SWT bless you and Guides us all in His straight path.

Peace,
Khalil

Thankyou and peace to you brother kgwithnob

Mazhar

People who work on ranches say all the time things like "I will hire you for eight harvests" or eight harvest feasts (cyclical events tied to the solar year that have to do with animals and food, which is mainly what "hagg" is about as per 222. No sane person on a ranch or a farm hires a worker according to the lunar year.

So you are assigning to meanings "harvest feasts" which obviously in not a lunar or solar year since these are more than one in a year. Is it so?

ayman

So you are assigning to meanings "harvest feasts" which obviously in not a lunar or solar year since these are more than one in a year. Is it so?

The word "hagg"/ meant "harvest feasts" long before I was born. The people of the book, including Moses, understood "hagg" as an annual "harvest feast".

http//www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.fact
http//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/2282.htm

Long before the prophet, you and I were born, the descendants of Israel celebrated the biggest harvest feast "al-hagg al-akbar" (they call it "hagg Sukkot&quot once a year on the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the inviolable full-moons).

http//www.truthofyahweh.org/feast_sacrif.html
http//www.partyguideonline.com/foodndrink/harvestfestivals.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_harvest_festivals
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukkot

The timing of the harvest feasts as marked by the full-moons is indeed well known to everyone as the god said (ash-hur ma3loomat). The meaning of "hagg" as feast was not only known to the people of the book, but has also always been known to the pagans, as evidenced by this ancient Semitic inscription from the 8th century BCE mentioning "hagg"

http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/

Generally, the harvest feasts are marked by the full-moon (also called harvest moon) and they last for a few days. Depending on the time when food is most plentiful in the specific region, they usually take place on one of the three full moons occuring approximately between mid summer and mid fall.

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

The word "hagg"/ meant "harvest feasts" long before I was born. The people of the book, including Moses, understood "hagg" as an annual "harvest feast".

http//www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.fact
http//strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/2282.htm

Long before the prophet, you and I were born, the descendants of Israel celebrated the biggest harvest feast "al-hagg al-akbar" (they call it "hagg Sukkot&quot once a year on the fourth full-moon after the summer solstice (the last of the inviolable full-moons).

http//www.truthofyahweh.org/feast_sacrif.html
http//www.partyguideonline.com/foodndrink/harvestfestivals.html
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_harvest_festivals
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukkot

The timing of the harvest feasts as marked by the full-moons is indeed well known to everyone as the god said (ash-hur ma3loomat). The meaning of "hagg" as feast was not only known to the people of the book, but has also always been known to the pagans, as evidenced by this ancient Semitic inscription from the 8th century BCE mentioning "hagg"

http//ntwrong.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/neo-hittite-funerary-rite/

Generally, the harvest feasts are marked by the full-moon (also called harvest moon) and they last for a few days. Depending on the time when food is most plentiful in the specific region, they usually take place on one of the three full moons occuring approximately between mid summer and mid fall.

Peace,

Ayman

So, as you suggest, he was asked to invite people at large for a" grand harvest feast" at a place where there is no cultivation, long before our birth and every body conveniently understood he was inviting for a feast.

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/022.%20Al%20Hajj/22.27.gif

And you pronounce amongst the people for Hajj ,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/022.%20Al%20Hajj/22.27a.gif
they will come to you on foot and upon each and every ride, they coming from every deep and distant mountain highways;

Al-Hu'j-Surat 22

ayman

So, as you suggest, he was asked to invite people at large for a" grand harvest feast" at a place where there is no cultivation, long before our birth and every body conveniently understood he was inviting for a feast.

Yes.

The pre-quranic meaning of "hagg" is "feast". The issue that you are talking about doesn't change this reality. The issue of the place is due to looking at only one aspect while not considering the whole picture.

The place at the time when it was first settled had no cultivated crops but it had naturally occuring plants. Here is what that the god told the people of the prophet who later lived in this same place

1610-11. He is the One who sent down water from the sky for you, from it you drink, and from it emerge the trees that you wander around in. He brings forth with it vegetation and olives and palm trees and grapes and from all the fruits. In that are signs for a people who think.

And He is the One who sent down water from the sky, and We brought out with it plants of every kind. We brought out from it the green, from which We bring out multiple seeds; and what is from the palm trees, from its sheaths hanging low and near; and gardens of grapes and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Look at its fruit when it blossoms and its ripeness. In this are signs for a people that believe.
And He is the One Who initiated gardens; both trellised and untrellised; and palm trees, and plants, all with different taste; and olives and pomegranates, similar and not similar. Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of harvest; and do not waste. He does not like the wasteful.

7928-32.And grapes and pasture.
And olives and palm trees.
And gardens in variety.
And fruits and vegetables.
An enjoyment for you and your livestock.

951-3. By the fig and the olive. And the mount of aridness. And this town of security.

By the way, it should be

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

Thanks for spell correction, I missed typing the suffixed pronoun alonwith sound stretching sign for reason of following vowelled hamza.

The quoted aayat are general in nature. It is specific and also time related during the currency of life of a person to whom people were supposed to approach for "festival feast" if that word means so.

And you pronounce amongst the people for Hajj ,

they will come to you on foot and upon each and every ride, they coming from every deep and distant mountain highways;

ayman

The quoted aayat are general in nature. It is specific and also time related during the currency of life of a person to whom people were supposed to approach for "festival feast" if that word means so.

The quoted passages are general in terms of the lessons learned but not general in terms of the specific examples they cite. Those examples must have been relevant to the people of the prophet. They repeat the same types of fruits that are native to a particular region and not any general fruits from all over the world. All the fruits repeatedly quoted (Olives, date palms, figs, pomegranates, grapes) are native to Northern Arabia and not to Central Arabia. It would have been ridiculous for the prophet to tell his people, for example in 6141, "Eat from its fruit when it blossoms and give its due on the day of harvest" of things that they neither harvest nor eat from. This is especially in light of the context of 6135-145, which starts with the following

Say ?My people,...

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

Peace Aymen,

Please attend this

http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/022.%20Al%20Hajj/22.27.gif

And you pronounce amongst the people for Hajj ,
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/022.%20Al%20Hajj/22.27a.gif
they will come to you on foot and upon each and every ride, they coming from every deep and distant mountain highways;

Al-Hu'j-Surat 22

ayman

And you pronounce amongst the people for Hajj , they will come to you on foot and upon each and every ride, they coming from every deep and distant mountain highways;

This translation doesn't follow the basic rules of language. For example, it shows the common noun "hajj" as an untranslated proper name. Can you please show the linguistic rule that you used to conclude that "hajj" and "kaaba" are proper names?

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

This translation doesn't follow the basic rules of language. For example, it shows the common noun "hajj" as an untranslated proper name. Can you please show the linguistic rule that you used to conclude that "hajj" and "kaaba" are proper names?

Peace,

Ayman

The issue for resolving is the cause and reason for which people will come to him, whether for enjoying "harvest feast" or for some other purpose. And please note it is not invitation but a proclamation/announcement for general public information. This will in itself define the term "ju'j".

ayman

The issue for resolving is the cause and reason for which people will come to him, whether for enjoying "harvest feast" or for some other purpose. And please note it is not invitation but a proclamation/announcement for general public information. This will in itself define the term "ju'j".

The term "hagg" itself means "feast". When harvest feasts are proclaimed in a place where no partners are set with the god and where people can gather in safety then there are naturally many community benefits. Such benefits, thanking the god on what he provided, eating and feeding the poor, and making good on vows to donate to the poor, etc. are all mentioned in the great reading.

Mazhar

Peace aymen,

Why cant you be straight forward instead of circular movement with irrelevant observations.

There is specific Ayat quoted with its Arabic text which you are not attending, rather avoiding.

Why people would come to him in an uncultivated valley, void of availability of "harvest feast" after he pronounces amongst people about the "al hu'j"?

And can there be such a big fool who could expect from a sane person's call coming from unpopulated, deserted and uncultivated valley that he is calling for "harvest feast"?

ayman

Why cant you be straight forward instead of circular movement with irrelevant observations.
There is specific Ayat quoted with its Arabic text which you are not attending, rather avoiding.
Why people would come to him in an uncultivated valley, void of availability of "harvest feast" after he pronounces amongst people about the "al hu'j"?
And can there be such a big fool who could expect from a sane person's call coming from unpopulated, deserted and uncultivated valley that he is calling for "harvest feast"?

Read reply #18. If you can't understand it, then get someone to explain it for you. Sorry I can't help you.