Proof Qur'an-alone is Error
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;D
Of course I know, once the soul was insufflated into Adam and reached his noze, he sneezed and angels told him "god bless you".
Wrong, check your sources.
You abandon the sunna because you are afraid to be judged by your friend and family while you must stand firm and defend it, you cant escape from rules like cuttin the hand of the thief, it is stated black on white, it is another way of thinking, another dimension, you can't compare with your european way of life, of course it is in contradiction with it. Didnt Musa asked his people who gone astray (golden cow) to kill each others to be forgotten, what if islam stated that ? you wont accept it at all ?
Are you talking about me personally or us QA? I never abandoned the sunna if you are referring to Muhammed's sunna, I follow the sunna of Allah so how can I abandon something that I never followed? And my family is sunni, fyi. And surprise surprise they accept me...They have seen that following the Quran is the thing that counts in the end. The reason why they stick to sunni is because they since childhood have done all the rituals and they feel uncomfortable breaking the habit.
And for cutting the hands off thieves, not everything is literal, my friend. There is a reason behind why Allah used these words. If you would read the Quran without hadith you would be able to see it too.Look, I already posted about 150 message in 4 days I already posted all my objections, why do you want me to get back at it again and summerize for you ? read my posts and you'll know what I don't agree with.
Look, you don't understand what I mean. Hadith this and Obey the Messenger that is not sound objections because they can be refuted. I will give you an example of a sound objection, ok?
Following ortodox islam, has it ever occurred that a person or group of persons have interpreted the Sunnah to include killing innocent people?
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Peace "Badr"
Adultery requires four witnesses.
JK- I know that but apostasy was touched upon too.
An apostate must embrace islam then revert and fight against muslim or become a threat to the whole community.
JK- Ok say someone becomes an apostate, does not physically fight against anyone, BUT he criticizes the system of what you understand as "Islam", points out flaws in it and propagates his new system/solutions to the "Muslim" community by writing articles and or appearing in the media.
It is totally forbidden in islam, one can't act by himself and be the judge and the executioner.
JK- SO what would you do in an "islamic state", if available, if such a person killed an apostate, who also did the above, where both you and he agreed that he really is? ALSO show me a hadith which says this is totally forbidden. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- See now you're deciding what is small and what is not and as to what is tranquility, everyone can decide that for him/herself anyway. All people don't find tranquility at the same speed so this is open. Again we as Quran Alone Muslims don't agree that God ordered such a rigid manner of salat as defined in hadith but even more open. That's all there is to it.
It is open in a limit not totally interchangeable.
JK- I was not the one making assumptions about him. YOU on the other hand said that he abandoned the sunna because he is afraid to be judged by friends and family.
He said it, rewind the discussion and check his posts. You're always assuming that I'm dishonest.
JK- THAT is exactly the points the "cut" leaves ROOM i.e. it does not necessarily imply the entire hand and as such we can divide thiefs into categories i.e. he steals more more cut and add more complex variables instead of just one dollar cent above the min allowed according to gold standard set in hadith and the whole hand goes off, one below that and he/shes safe.
Of course because if you see the whole picture alot of women and to cut their hands by themselves, ones can be more concentrated than others etc...
But the other verse is a rule wich is cristal clear O you belivers, the thief and the thiefess/female thief, cut off their hands !!!!! couldnt be more clear.
JK- Your "scholars" also differ on the interpretations of verses in the Quran so don't give me this. e.g. "said-ul-bahr" some interpret as "game of the see" saying GOD allows all that is in water whilst others say "fish of the sea" and hence only fish are allowed. AND yes I do think it makes no sense that GOD would say such and in my and many others undertstandings of that verse He didn't.
What's said-ul-bahr ??? in arabic ?
JK- Verses do NOT STAND ON THEIR OWN. INTERPRETATION IS ALWAYS required. That's a fact of any language. Your dishonest if you don't admit that. You have made up your mind mostly with what your sunni "scholars" interpret for you. We too have made up our mind and are confident until we acquire new evidence again via independent investiagtion as wel always try to do in order to elininate any group bias. GOD Bless!
independant investigation ? nope
What 3103 means to you ?
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It is an act.
http//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/salat_positions_(P119.html
We know that the ruku is a part of it since 2226 mentions it
"And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place of the (holy) House, saying Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration."
Qur'an 2226
We know that it refers to prayer since the alternative PRAYER (salaat) is presented in 835
"And their prayer before the House is nothing but whistling and clapping of hands; taste then the chastisement, for you disbelieved."
I am not contradicting a logical conclusion.
Khuda hafiz
Most people here says no.
P.S. Your description of salaat in the other thread is pieced together from many sources. I specified one hadith, and there are different versions of Muhammad's (SAW) prayer.
theres no single hadith, the prophet says "pray as you see me praying" and people reported how they saw him praying, yall assume here they wele ALL wrong, they couldnt see well or I dunno what. Maybe they are all amnesics.
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Most people here says no.
theres no single hadith, the prophet says "pray as you see me praying" and people reported how they saw him praying, yall assume here they wele ALL wrong, they couldnt see well or I dunno what. Maybe they are all amnesics.
Most people say no? That does not concern me since the people in this thread seem to agree that salaat is an act.
In a hadith we are told to kill the scorpion and the snake during salaat. Again why do you accept a hadith over the Qur'an? Read 456. The exact word hadith is mentioned. Why do you pray 2 out of 5 silently?
Khuda hafiz
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Wrong, check your sources.
Enlight me !
Are you talking about me personally or us QA? I never abandoned the sunna if you are referring to Muhammed's sunna, I follow the sunna of Allah so how can I abandon something that I never followed? And my family is sunni, fyi. And surprise surprise they accept me...They have seen that following the Quran is the thing that counts in the end. The reason why they stick to sunni is because they since childhood have done all the rituals and they feel uncomfortable breaking the habit.
And for cutting the hands off thieves, not everything is literal, my friend. There is a reason behind why Allah used these words. If you would read the Quran without hadith you would be able to see it too.You said I am a quran aloner and I am better now because I dont have to defend myself before people.
Of course your family will accept you, why wouldnt they ?
In this case it is literal.
Look, you don't understand what I mean. Hadith this and Obey the Messenger that is not sound objections because they can be refuted. I will give you an example of a sound objection, ok?
Following ortodox islam, has it ever occurred that a person or group of persons have interpreted the Sunnah to include killing innocent people?
Your are judgin people here not the prophet saying, of course there people who interpret hadith to accomplish their greedy goals.
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Peace "Badr",
It is open in a limit not totally interchangeable.
JK- The Quran also defines some limits in our understanding like specific times, performing wudu before doing it, bowing and prostrating(though not everyone agrees but i still do), trying best to focus on GOD Alone. Within these we are free to act. Additionally any of these limits can also be challenged if someone comes up with a better interpreation.
He said it, rewind the discussion and check his posts. You're always assuming that I'm dishonest.
JK- In that case it's fine and no I don't always assume that at times I do.
Of course because if you see the whole picture alot of women and to cut their hands by themselves, ones can be more concentrated than others etc...
But the other verse is a rule wich is cristal clear O you belivers, the thief and the thiefess/female thief, cut off their hands !!!!! couldnt be more clear.
JK- I agree it is clear to "cut the hands" BUT as to how much, that is not clear. This is why I belevie GOD gave the example of the story above in Joseph. What a coinidence that He mentions the same word for "cut" in there and also that particular part of Josephs story is missing even in the Bible, though much of the rest is there too.
What's said-ul-bahr ??? in arabic ?
JK- 596 Y.Ali awful to you is the pursuit of water-game(saad-ya-daal ul BAHR(ba-Ha-ra) and its use for food...
Pickthall; To hunt and to eat the fish of the seaHanfi school of thought says by this only fish are allowed whilst shafi and the others say all game from the water is halal. GOD Bless!
independant investigation ? nope
What 3103 means to you ?
JK- Yes and we think that we are holding fast to the rope of GOD by 1st independetly and without bias trying to study his word. THEN we come together and check each other. Otherwise we would be full of biases and coudlnt tell whether GOD is actually saying x,y,z or just our desires AS YOU ACUSE OF. Infact it is group thinking like your system where it leads Qurnaic verses and hadith as well to be understood according to your desire, instead of reason and logic. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr"
JK- I know that but apostasy was touched upon too.
JK- Ok say someone becomes an apostate, does not physically fight against anyone, BUT he criticizes the system of what you understand as "Islam", points out flaws in it and propagates his new system/solutions to the "Muslim" community by writing articles and or appearing in the media.
JK- SO what would you do in an "islamic state", if available, if such a person killed an apostate, who also did the above, where both you and he agreed that he really is? ALSO show me a hadith which says this is totally forbidden. GOD Bless!
Depends of what he is propaganding and the appreciation of the ruler at that time. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal have been imprisoned for his thoughts and he is one of the 4 madhahibs.
Whether in an islamic states or not, it's the same, it's up to the ruler to decide, people are not judges.
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Is the Sultan/ruler in Saudia unjust? I told you there are hadith "scholars" backing him up and doing "baya" for him. He is not considered a sovereign king as is commonly understood in the English language but more like David and Solomon in the Quran according to those "scholars" who have studied the hadith IN THE HEARTLAND of your "islam". In your understanding they should have the best understanding of quran and hadith. GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
Depends of what he is propaganding and the appreciation of the ruler at that time. Ahmad Ibn Hanbal have been imprisoned for his thoughts and he is one of the 4 madhahibs.
JK- So in that case don't you see how disastrous this system is? It'd even lead to Muslims getting killed cause anytime the ruler can decide such and such opinions are too much kuffur. That's why freedom of expression is so important and there should be no law to bar or worse execute people for exercizing them. And you are attribuing this system to GOD and His messenger just because of some writing that says the Prophet said to kill apostates for which there is no evidence that any modern court and most people in their daily lifes wouldnt accept? What kinna logic is that?
Whether in an islamic states or not, it's the same, it's up to the ruler to decide, people are not judges.
JK- But what happen to such a person. Would you hand him in to the ruler? In that case should the ruler order him to be killed too for murder according to shariah? GOD Bless!
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Peace "Badr",
JK- Is the Sultan/ruler in Saudia unjust? I told you there are hadith "scholars" backing him up and doing "baya" for him. He is not considered a sovereign king as is commonly understood in the English language but more like David and Solomon in the Quran according to those "scholars" who have studied the hadith IN THE HEARTLAND of your "islam". In your understanding they should have the best understanding of quran and hadith. GOD Bless!
He is not helping Islam.
Theres also alot of scholars that dont back him at all.
The law is clear 'amrukom shura beinakom'