What does God obtain from creation?

Sara

Peace,

Sara

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Sara,

I think the main question you have is WHY did the God create us, who gave him the right?

It helps if you realize that ALL is MENTAL in nature. We are but THOUGHTS in the mind of the God. WIth that said, who gave you the right to "THINK" up all the visions that go through YOUR thoughts?

The problem is the CONCEPT of a "god". The problem is corrected when we stop looking at the God as an OBJECT that is outside of our mental exsistence. Everything is mental in nature, that which we call matter is but enegy vibrating at a low level. We are all as THOUGHTS in the GREAT MIND, THAT which we cannot begin to fathom with a finite mind.

He who was "muhammad" was told to stop looking to the skies for guidance, but instead to face the restriced place of prostration(hearing and obeying the restrictions of univeral law) at all times. WHen we follow the restrictions(LAWS), we can LEARN how to be successful. Without LAWS, we are constantly guessing, and guessing is no substitute for the truth.

All things start with THOUGHT in the MIND.

(917) Wanafsin wama sawwaha
and MIND and who perfected it

(91 Faalhamaha fujooraha wataqwaha
So He inspired it its corruption/wickedness and its fear(protection)

(919) Qad aflaha man zakkaha
He is succesful who purifies it

(9110) Waqad khaba man dassaha
and he has failed who corrupts it

Sara

NEO

Take this thread for instance; everytime sarah gets cornered, she'll use "you don't know for sure" as a response. Thus putting her on the proverbial "fence" on every issue. In a debate, you have two sides - "yes", and "no". There's no "maybe this", or "we don't know". Conclusions are reached through the mutual arguments from both sides.

Also, the reason why "you don't know for sure" is a weak argument is because it is an inherent contradiction - when someone says "you dont know for sure", that someone is assuming they understand what "knowledge" means, or to say, they "know" what "knowledge" is; which is contradictory to their original stance of "you don't know for sure". In short, people who say "you don't know for sure" really don't know what they're saying.

LOL! What do you mean by, everytime I get 'cornered'? Had you done a bit of thinking before formulating your response, you would know that, when I say "you don't know", I am not claiming to know what knowledge is, rather, I'm saying that, YOU/I BOTH don't know. We are on the SAME boat. The only difference is that you THINK you KNOW you're on the right path, whereas I simply don't know. You probably will never know. You can only guess.

Btw, you've never 'cornered' me/made any really good points, that's just wishful thinking on your part.

why does good need anything?

Actually, I agree that God doesn't need anything.

Now, secondly, you say "god is FORCING us to follow his orders or we go to hell. This is unjust". Question what is your opinion of the judicial system?

Judicial system is made by man to regulate the chaos in society. Everybody will differ in opinion when it comes to different laws. Personally I thinks its good to have steadiness.

Do you think that it's "unjust" that a murder goes to jail?

You mean murderer, right? Well, if a man takes another mans life, then, yes, he should lose his privileges, unless its an act of self defense.

I mean, isn't a murderer being FORCED not to commit murder or being FORCED to go to jail?

We are discussing God and man; the scenario you presented has to do with man and man. So, it is not logical to use human actions as a platform to rationalize God's actions.

But, anyway, someone who commits murder will obtain something from it (whatever it may be). What is GODS motive?

Sara

Peace Zenje,

No it isn't. There is an 'in-between'. Again, we choose wherever we go.

If The God knows where we're going to end up, then, why doesn't It try to change that?

How do you know?

Are you saying that, God does not know all things?

Ah, I can't seem to find the verse where we were all asked, before we came to earth, if we agree, so that we won't claim we 'didn't know' afterwards. I know, I'm a bit vague here, but I'll keep looking, and I'll get back to you. In the meantime, check out 3372. That still proves my point.

I'm asking about our existence. If God asked us, then, we would have had to exist already, so there would really be no point.

Don't see how 3372 makes your point.

Did the people think that they will be left to Say ?We believe? without being put to the test?
While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.

God cannot discern the difference between the truthful/liars without testing them?

He didn't "make us"... we do this to ourselves. We asked for this. For now, it's my opinion.

How do poor, hungry, homeless children/refugees around the world ASK for it?!! Are you saying that, it's THEIR fault? Thinking about those kind of people is one of the reasons why I doubt God's existence.

You, as a human, in this life, will never know.

Thank you for proving my point. Just like you will not know what the truth is until after you die (that is, if something does happen).

Anyway, you just proved that, we really don't have a clue why we exist

It is temporary, we tend to forget and think it permanent and real. All this will dissappear.

Yes, everybody has to die one day. It is inevitable.

calms down Please Sara, don't make fun... this is serious.

Who's making fun of anything?

Sara

zenje

Salaam Sara,

If The God knows where we're going to end up, then, why doesn't It try to change that?
Why should HE?... HE's giving you what you want! wink

Are you saying that, God does not know all things?
I'm not answering this question until you tell me what you think of the verses.

I'm asking about our existence. If God asked us, then, we would have had to exist already, so there would really be no point.
And this is why, this will be my last post on this thread. You ask a question, I answer it, you say, it's not a good answer because of another question you have. lol

Don't see how 3372 makes your point.
Look again.

God cannot discern the difference between the truthful/liars without testing them?
The verse is clear as day, yet you cannot see. Ah well.

How do poor, hungry, homeless children/refugees around the world ASK for it?!! Are you saying that, it's THEIR fault? Thinking about those kind of people is one of the reasons why I doubt God's existence.

Amazing... I didn't expect that from you. Look at the context. What did you ask me?... what did I answer, in direct connection to your specific question? And now this?... http//www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/1004.gif

Who's making fun of anything?
You are. I suggest you now, take a step back... breathe... forget what you know... and start over. You might notice that you've been answered several times in several different ways, by several different people here. Take special note of what Tay said.

I will say Adieu and Goodbye - Merovingian

Peace.

Idris

peace,

Yes, everybody has to die one day. It is inevitable.

inconclusive reasoning Sara wink btw I think when you first came to true Islam I think you shoulda handled these topics first instead of spending so much time on hadith which is basically a pointless and tiring subject for me now, Sunnis just argue for the sake of argument

And We will test you with some fear and hunger, and a shortage in money and lives and fruits. And give good news to those who are patient. (2155)

unknownuser

Peace Sara

If The God knows where we're going to end up, then, why doesn't It try to change that?

Not giving answers that satisfy me and not having any answers at all are two different things.

Are you saying that, God does not know all things?

I'm asking about our existence. If God asked us, then, we would have had to exist already, so there would really be no point.

God cannot discern the difference between the truthful/liars without testing them?

So then there's nothing with me saying that, maybe our purpose is to just breathe? Or, perhaps, to just die?

I'm not sure if I believe in God anymore. Maybe, maybe not. I believe it is an aspect of reality that is....unknowable?

So then there's nothing with me saying that, maybe our purpose is to just breathe? Or, perhaps, to just die?

How do poor, hungry, homeless children/refugees around the world ASK for it?!! Are you saying that, it's THEIR fault? Thinking about those kind of people is one of the reasons why I doubt God's existence.

You've asked extremely good questions, Precious, and no one can seem to answer you adequately. With this in mind, and hopefully you will indulge me in this experiment, if these questions were put to you and you were defending Allah,...how would you answer them satisfcatorily? Perhaps only you can answer your own questions...let's see. )

Sara

Peace,

Why should HE?... HE's giving you what you want!

God is going to put people in hell, regardless of if they want to go in or not.

I'm not answering this question until you tell me what you think of the verses.

Which one? 3372?

Do you or do you not believe that, God knows all things? Yes or no?

And this is why, this will be my last post on this thread. You ask a question, I answer it, you say, it's not a good answer because of another question you have.

Your answer doesn't make sense; in order for God to ask us whether or not we want to exist, we would have had to exist already, get it?

Look again.

Looks

The verse is clear as day, yet you cannot see. Ah well.

Can you please answer the question
God cannot discern the difference between the truthful/liars without testing them?

Amazing... I didn't expect that from you. Look at the context. What did you ask me?... what did I answer, in direct connection to your specific question? And now this?...

I said

Why make us suffer, why give us heaven, hell, why give us anything at all

You said He didn't "make us"... we do this to ourselves. We asked for this. For now, it's my opinion.

You are. I suggest you now, take a step back... breathe... forget what you know... and start over. You might notice that you've been answered several times in several different ways, by several different people here. Take special note of what Tay said.

Right. I think I'm going to take a break from this thread.

Sara

Peace Idris,

inconclusive reasoning Sara btw I think when you first came to true Islam I think you shoulda handled these topics first instead of spending so much time on hadith which is basically a pointless and tiring subject for me now, Sunnis just argue for the sake of argument

I already told you that, these things have been bugging me prior to my becoming an actual Muslim.

And We will test you with some fear and hunger, and a shortage in money and lives and fruits. And give good news to those who are patient. (2155)

What's the point of the test, when God already knows the result?

Sara

neo

...you would know that, when I say "you don't know", I am not claiming to know what knowledge is, rather, I'm saying that, YOU/I BOTH don't know. We are on the SAME boat. The only difference is that you THINK you KNOW you're on the right path, whereas I simply don't know. You probably will never know. You can only guess.

Eh, read what I said. If you can make the statement "you don't know", you're implying you know what knowledge is. It's not that difficult of a logic to follow. Basically what it's saying is "you don't know for sure and nor do I" is a weak defense that can't be used in a debate.

Btw, you've never 'cornered' me/made any really good points, that's just wishful thinking on your part.

I've gotten quite a few PMs about the good points I've made - maybe you just can't recognize a good point when you see one?

Actually, I agree that God doesn't need anything.

So why the foolish questions?

You assume Allah needs something, and then you call everyone out on it, and then turn around and say allah doesn't need anything. Stick to one position.

We are discussing God and man; the scenario you presented has to do with man and man. So, it is not logical to use human actions as a platform to rationalize God's actions.

But then you use human words to try and justify god's actions! Way to go Ms Consistency.

But, anyway, someone who commits murder will obtain something from it (whatever it may be). What is GODS motive?

Logical contradiction with "I agree god doesnt need anything".

Peace.

Satan_Hates_Me

Actually, I agree that God doesn't need anything.

So why the foolish questions?

You assume Allah needs something, and then you call everyone out on it, and then turn around and say allah doesn't need anything. Stick to one position.

THAT IS WHAT I WAS SAYING!!!!!!!

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Sara,

I think it would be best for you to think of "God" as the laws that govern all that there is. Stop thinking of "God" as a "person". I think that change in your perception can answer most of your questions.

Satan_Hates_Me

Idolfree

Peace be upon you Sara,

I think it would be best for you to think of "God" as the laws that govern all that there is. Stop thinking of "God" as a "person". I think that change in your perception can answer most of your questions.

what do you mean not a personilty but a law?
Do you think GOd is not a personality?

Tay

Peace All,

I think Sara has decided to take a breather and enjoy some sunshine.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Sara said whats the point of the test when he knows the result?

I totally agree.

But ,i think, he doesn't know the results ,thats the reason of the tests.
Thanks.
Salaams all.

neo

Sara said whats the point of the test when he knows the result?

I totally agree.

But ,i think, he doesn't know the results ,thats the reason of the tests.
Thanks.
Salaams all.

Life is not a "test", per se. Not from Allah's perspective.

Satan_Hates_Me

Sara said whats the point of the test when he knows the result?

I totally agree.

But ,i think, he doesn't know the results ,thats the reason of the tests.
Thanks.
Salaams all.

to me, this world is not a "test" but a "chance" of redemption. Remember what GOd said when we took is offer, we were already transgressing(3372)

zenje

Okay... I couldn't resist! lol

Sara said whats the point of the test when he knows the result?

I totally agree.

But ,i think, he doesn't know the results ,thats the reason of the tests.
"I had a dog, and his name was - BINGO!" (Oh... that means I agree with mz!)

Life is not a "test", per se. Not from Allah's perspective.
I'm not sure what you mean by that, but life is a test for us. I will post some verses supporting what mz's post in it's entirety. Theres 2 MAJOR points here... watch...

And God will test those who believe and He will destroy the rejecters.
Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God knowing those who would strive amongst you and knowing those who are patient?
....God will test what is in your chests and bring out what is in your hearts. God is Knowledgeable as to what is in the chests.

and ofcourse I posted this earlier...

Did the people think that they will be left to say ?We believe? without being put to the test?
While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.
And We will test you until We know those who strive among you and those who are patient. And We will bring out your qualities.
The One who created death and life to test you. Which of you will do better works? He is the Noble, the Forgiving.
We have created the human from drops of semen to test him, so We made him hear and see.

More "test" verses...

... you'll notice different types of tests for different people (including messengers) all through the course of life.

I think mz said what a lot of people here are 'afraid' to say. I noticed the reserve also on another thread just created.

Peace be with you all.

savage_carrot

Peace Zein,

That is quite quite interesting...but what do you think of the limitations it places on God then...that means God doesn't know all, He needs to carry out tests to know. Hoping you can clarify this point a bit please.

Could it be that God would know that we know who are truthful and who are liars? Seeing as how the test is for our benefit?

zenje

Salaam Nadia,

Please note - I used very little of my words in this post. I'm glad you saw what I was trying to convey with the verses. Some find difficulty, not because they don't understand the verses, but perhaps because it goes against their 'pre-ordained' beliefs?

There's no limitation on God. We can't even fathom simple things... and we "think" this is a limitation? Like neo's post on the other thread, there's many many possibilities, there's many routes we could take. God knows them all, God knows us more than we know ourselves, God knows what's in our chests... you know the deal. So I see no limitation. He doesn't "need" to carry out tests or so anything. All of this is in our benefit.

I hope I didn't make it more confusing. If I did, stick to the verses! ops

Could it be that God would know that we know who are truthful and who are liars?
I'm not quite sure what you mean.

Anybody here ever watched a movie called - Defending Your Life? Not exactly what we're dealing with here, but it's quite interesting to see different thoughts on the subject, of why we're here, and what happens next! (True story! twisted )

Peace