What does God obtain from creation?

Tay

Peace Kyle,

You stated,

The God is the SEER, the God is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that is within EVERYONE.

I gotcha. I understand and agree. I guess what threw me off was when you said, "The God uses man to have experience". At face value, it seemed like you meant man was a tool for God, to have experience. Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

Big and small are relative statements.

Precisely. From where I stand, love is a big(for me) part of God.

Let me hear your definition, actually, I wanted to start this topic up anyway so I will start a thread for it.

I'll meet you there wink

But thats the same thing I said above, attraction/interconnectedness

I think attraction and interconnectedness are not the same. Attraction alone is too encapsulating, as in, "the smell of a steak attracted the hungry man". It's mechanical, calculated. Interconnectedness implies a hidden energy, something subtle yet undeniable.

If it cant be grasped by reason and logic, how are you explaining it?

Irrationally, and illogically - Anything else would be trying to catch lightning in a bottle.

Thats incorrect and easily argued away. Love of the part does not equal love of the whole.

I agree, if the love is tainted/biased, as your examples showed. But pure love builds on itself. It doesn't stop at cultural or family boundaries. It becomes a chain reaction. It expands and overflows.

When we focus on PARTS, we are blinded to the rest of the WHOLE.

Are you suggesting we not love our parents, our children our spouses, and friends?

Not so, if the person is balanced. I would not say loving the part blinds one to the whole. I would say infatuation with a part may blind one to the whole - but not love.

there are verses about Love in this reading that will correct this theory and support my understanding.

Looking forward to it.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace be upon you Tay,

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The God is the SEER, the God is the ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that is within EVERYONE.

I gotcha. I understand and agree. I guess what threw me off was when you said, "The God uses man to have experience". At face value, it seemed like you meant man was a tool for God, to have experience. Anyway, thanks for clarifying.

Yes, thats what I meant, we are the God's tools, the tools SERVE the objective of the God, the PURPOSE for all of this (including our senses by which we experience creation). It is the God who is the seer, the "experiencer". There is ONE, that is the God. On a smaller scale you can think of the individual beings called "cells" which experience the ONENESS of the human body. Everything you SEE is but differentations of the same energy. The same protons nuetrons and electrons in different configurations. We come from NOTHINGNESS to BEINGNESS, but we are connected in the NOTHINGNESS (UNSEEN), we have the APPEARANCE of seperation at this low level, that is why the God said the human being was created weak, all we rely on is outer form. The journey is within, to the ONE WHO SEES/EXPERIENCES through the human being, the khalifa of earth.

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Big and small are relative statements.

Precisely. From where I stand, love is a big(for me) part of God.

Yes, I agree, very high in the hierarchy of being, some cultures teach that until this faculty is developed, you cannot access your divine nature, the ruh within you. It is like a SEAL from access to higher levels(maqam) of your BEING.

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But thats the same thing I said above, attraction/interconnectedness

I think attraction and interconnectedness are not the same. Attraction alone is too encapsulating, as in, "the smell of a steak attracted the hungry man". It's mechanical, calculated. Interconnectedness implies a hidden energy, something subtle yet undeniable.

YES, a hidden energy, which is PULLING you towards that ONENESS, but man was created weak, focused on the ILLUSION if disconnectedness. It is a GUIDING FORCE, attraction is, it comes from the ONE ENERGY. I hope I clarified my position effectively.

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Thats incorrect and easily argued away. Love of the part does not equal love of the whole.

I agree, if the love is tainted/biased, as your examples showed.

Not tainted and biased, only "encapsulated" on on aspect of the WHOLE. Focused on a PART of the WHOLE causing damage to the rest that is not focused on. This way, someone can focus your attention one way and do something out of your range of focus. We should me conscious of the WHOLE.

But pure love builds on itself. It doesn't stop at cultural or family boundaries. It becomes a chain reaction. It expands and overflows.

It is a natural force from the God (The Whole), it ceratinly cannot be limited, but thats EXACTLY what people are doing, but then there is the other extreme of making it a partner to the God, the God is above LOVE or any description because the God is "The ALL", both that which is percieved and that which percieves.

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When we focus on PARTS, we are blinded to the rest of the WHOLE.

Are you suggesting we not love our parents, our children our spouses, and friends?

No, I am suggesting that your attraction to ALL CREATION should be equal to that of your parents, children, and spouses, but you see, many of us cannot see it from this angle. We seperate our own children and family from other peoples family. Why would your solution be not to love your family? Instead, raise the level of Love to all creation so that there is no differentation between humanity. But the God truthfully stated that our spouses and children would be tests. I verify this statement to be true.

Not so, if the person is balanced. I would not say loving the part blinds one to the whole. I would say infatuation with a part may blind one to the whole - but not love.

If a person is balanced, they will see that saying you LOVE a certain portion of humanity, means that you DO NOT LOVE the rest. The God creates in PAIRS, we must never make the mistake of looking at the 99 sheep and not looking at the ONE. We must WEIGH ACCRODINGLY to get to the truth. We must become LOVING PEOPLE, not cultiovate and unbalance FORCE. Those perverted forces are called shayteen. We are a balanced community and the process of enlightenment(weighing of evidence) keeps us balanced(wusta).

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there are verses about Love in this reading that will correct this theory and support my understanding.

Looking forward to it.

The search engine is still down, please stay on top of me to provide these verses, please.

unknownuser

Hello Idolfree,

I don't like the idea of God uses man to have experience. If God is perfect why would he need us to have experience? If he needed us to have experience then he would not be perfect.

If it only the God, that tastes, feels and not me, then, what is the point of ?me? then?

If I have no consciousness myself what is the point of it all then?

How do you know that GOD is ONE CONSCIOUSNESS that is within EVERYONE?

God could be the SUM TOTAL OF ALL THE INDIVIDUAL CONSCIOUNESS?

How do you know that everything comes from NOTHING?

Everything could flow out of God, just like the Universe flowed out of the Big Bang?

How do you know that we go from NOTHING to EXPERICENCE and not from ?NOTHING? to consciousness?

Can we not be conscious and yet have no experience?

If we are manifestation of the one consciousness through differentiations of the ONE ORIGINAL substance, what is the point of life, death, love and beliefs, heaven and hell?

The truth is no one knows. We can only speculate.

I like to believe that God does not need us. He does not need our submission, service or our worship. He does not need us to ?experience? because he is perfect. Rather each individual is an expression of the creativity of the Divine Love. If everything is an expression of God's love then for me God is Love. I don't need anything else. I don?t want anything else. It is through love that I will find God. It is through love that I will understand God.

If you want definition of love I would say

"Love seeketh not itself please" and
"Love is sufficient unto Love"

Do not confuse understanding of the limited Human Love with Divine Love.

But I believe that it is in the limited Human Love that we can glimpse the nature and power of the Divine Love. Using examples like "a racist loves his own race" is not appropriate because this is only a human understanding of love. Love is that ever-expressive feeling that knows no hate; love is that ever-expansive feeling that has no boundaries. Anything else is not love. Love is the need of the soul. Love is the need of the spirit. Human love is but a pointer to the Divine Love.

Loving the PART does not cause suffering in the world rather NOT LOVING is the cause of the suffering in the world. Loving the PART is just a beginning and NOT the end of understanding Divine Love.

unknownuser

Hello Tay,

I agree with you when you say love is something that pervades and sustains the realms of the senses as well as the unseen.

Though love is beyond logic and reason but God has given us the power of intuition and imagination to glimpse beyond logic and reason to grasp some understanding of the power of Divine Love.

Tay

Peace Kyle,

You stated,

Yes, thats what I meant, we are the God's tools, the tools SERVE the objective of the God, the PURPOSE for all of this (including our senses by which we experience creation).

I don't see it that way. First off, what is the objective/purpose?

Everything you SEE is but differentations of the same energy.

Agreed. But this is not the same concept as love. I feel you're placing concepts of the tangible upon the intangible. Let's take your path to the extreme. When you dissect atoms to the quantum level, what are you left with? Nothing - shapeless, formless energy that only appears to take form because we happen to be looking. Where does love fit in this equation of nothing?

Love is, if you will, of the spiritual realm. It is beyond the nothing.

YES, a hidden energy, which is PULLING you towards that ONENESS, but man was created weak, focused on the ILLUSION if disconnectedness. It is a GUIDING FORCE, attraction is, it comes from the ONE ENERGY. I hope I clarified my position effectively.

you have, and we are in agreement

Not tainted and biased, only "encapsulated" on on aspect of the WHOLE. Focused on a PART of the WHOLE causing damage to the rest that is not focused on. This way, someone can focus your attention one way and do something out of your range of focus. We should me conscious of the WHOLE.

This is where we differ. It seems you don't think it's possible to love a part of the whole, and that love will teach you to love the whole. I disagree. In fact, I think if one does not learn how to love a part of the whole, unabashedly, with an open heart, then one cannot appreciate the concept of love at all.

It is a natural force from the God (The Whole), it ceratinly cannot be limited, but thats EXACTLY what people are doing

I say those that have attempted to put limits on love have no idea of love's nature. And those that feel true love usually do their best to spread it. This is, of course, only from personal experience, albeit, it is something I always pay attention to.

I am suggesting that your attraction to ALL CREATION should be equal to that of your parents, children, and spouses, but you see, many of us cannot see it from this angle. We seperate our own children and family from other peoples family.

Kyle, can you honestly tell me that you can love a complete stranger to the same degree that you can love your own mother? Can you walk up to a person on the street and embrace him/her, in the warmest of hugs, with an open heart?

Do you fall into tears of love every time you see a sunset?

Of course we seperate our families from the other families. We are human, after all. The love I have for friends and family has built over years. It took trials and tests, ups and downs, the good and the bad. Trust had to be built. Love is not a switch that one can just turn on.

But you see, because I love my friends and family, and I'm loved by my friends and family, I in turn am more easily accessible to love. I find it more and more often, in more and more places. It is a snowball effect. This is my point. Love expands throughout one's own life once it is accessed.

Why would your solution be not to love your family?

That's not my solution at all. It's a question for you, as you're making it seem that it is wrong to love one's own family more than an unknown family from across the globe.

Instead, raise the level of Love to all creation so that there is no differentation between humanity

A noble goal, but unrealistic for the reasons explained above.

If a person is balanced, they will see that saying you LOVE a certain portion of humanity, means that you DO NOT LOVE the rest.

Not so. There's only so much time to get to know so many portions of humanity. I can say the potential exists to love all of humanity, and in a very general sense, I do. But on an intimate basis, I do not, for I only know a few intimately.

The God creates in PAIRS, we must never make the mistake of looking at the 99 sheep and not looking at the ONE.

Again, I don't think it's either/or. Looking at the ONE sheep with love will lead you to look for the other 99.

Peace,
Tay

Tay

Peace Lote Tree,

Though love is beyond logic and reason but God has given us the power of intuition and imagination to glimpse beyond logic and reason to grasp some understanding of the power of Divine Love.

Precisely. Love is the one concept that even an honest atheist will not deny, although he cannot explain it. We are all given the great gift of being capable of loving, and capable of being loved, yet who can explain it in words.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Peace all,

Scripture should only be a guide to understanding God. It should not be taken as the Absolute Truth. Every Scripture is A TRUTH and not the WHOLE truth.

The above statement has led me pondering for quite some time and agree with its notion. Here's my thoughts

The Quran is a written material perpetuating reflections/thoughts/incidents of/by a man or perhaps men put together for reading and realization of past, present and future outcome narrated BACK THEN in its own TIME. As such, I personally, do not believe that the Quran is the absolute word of GOD, yet it does contain abundance of truth and a profound message.

In a nutshell, how these narrations are understood today, are by no means easy, simply because of certain events unverifiable/un-witnessed, the accuracy and validity of material, versions with added connotations, interpretations/translations and as well as linguistic and language barriers. As such, every individual, including the language gurus, faces interpretations with rising conflicts and ever changing minds. Having said this, there?s not one single human today that can interpret the entire Quran in absoluteness and yet the majority discern, by virtue of their own authority, to vindicate GOD by taking His name in vain; i.e. GOD said this and GOD said that, GOD forgot to mention this or that, GOD never said this or that, GOD could have said this or that, etc., etc. What a shame and a mockery of GOD His believers make out of a written material with no authority or certainty.

I believe that the Quran as a WHOLE carries underlying fundamental principles which govern en-masse to be read, understood and reflected upon without dwelling into its past and present therein as and when revealed in its own given time to that of our own. For example, the Quran talks about many events prior to its revelation, such as the stories of Abraham, David, Solomon, Lot, Talmud, Moses and Jesus among several others. Today, I cannot possibly verify any of these let alone interpret in its true essence but by reflecting upon those stories in my own past and present in the very same manner as presented and in my very own TIME, ALL that I?ve witnessed, heard and seen firsthand insofar about ALL past and present events KNOWN/WITNESSED up until today, whether humanly or heavenly, good or bad, are but absolute reflections/guidance/signs that has occurred/occurring within my own realm, in my very existence and as much as I can remember, I am certain that there lies abundance of guidance/reflections/signs to heed upon. The signs/miracles, events, idols, proofs, etc., contoured within the framework of a written material such as the Quran, must be understood, contemplated and reasoned outside of it, in reality, in the heavens and the earth, within our own time/realm

In the creation of the heavens and the earth, the alternation of night and day, the ships that roam the ocean for the benefit of the people, the water that GOD sends down from the sky to revive dead land and to spread in it all kinds of creatures, the manipulation of the winds, and the clouds that are placed between the sky and the earth, there are sufficient proofs for people who understand.

In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are signs for those who possess intelligence.

They remember GOD while standing, sitting, and on their sides, and they reflect upon the creation of the heavens and the earth "Our Lord, You did not create all this in vain. Be You glorified. Save us from the retribution of Hell.

O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth.

We showed Abraham the marvels of the heavens and the earth, and blessed him with certainty

Surely, in the alternation of night and day, and what GOD created in the heavens and the earth, there are proofs for people who are righteous.

Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.

So many proofs in the heavens and the earth are given to them, but they pass by them, heedlessly!

He said, "The Lord of the heavens and the earth, and everything between them. You should be certain about this."

GOD created the heavens and the earth, truthfully. This provides a sufficient proof for the believers.

Among His proofs are the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colors. In these, there are signs for the knowledgeable.

Why do they not reflect on themselves? GOD did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, except for a specific purpose, and for a specific life span. However, most people, with regard to meeting their Lord, are disbelievers.

The creation of the heavens and the earth is even more awesome than the creation of the human being, but most people do not know.

The heavens and the earth are full of proofs for the believers.

My point being that unless one applies his/her intuitions, reflections of his/her own self and all that surrounds him/her, as ones own Paths and Ways of Life, life stories of all individuals, dead or alive (known); events, incidents and other natural experiences and phenomenon (joyous and/or disastrous) at all levels and phases of ones life whether past or present, are but reflections/signs whereby one learns, contemplates, takes heed and thus be guided in its most natural and certain ways. This IS the ?real guidance?.

Here?s something to reflect upon
Think of a tree with branches bearing leaves, flowers and fruits, as ones? System of Life. The stem of a tree is deeply and firmly rooted representing bondness, a system of its own, whether single or as in marriage. The branches can be thought of as family members, relatives, friends, acquaintances, etc. The leaves, flowers and fruits as events, happiness and/or sadness that change with time. The leaves, flowers and fruits that come in all shapes, sizes, colors, taste, etc., no matter how elegant or ugly, whether ripe or rotten, sharing the same bond/stem, wither away in its own environment/season and revive for new ones but the tree remains resolute. The sadness and happiness too, come in variety of different ways, constantly changing, withering and reviving, each in its own environment/circumstance. Of course, the seed as it germinates by the nourishment given, location and surrounding in which it embeds and its after care, reflects much the same way as an unborn child to adulthood. As humans come in all shapes, sizes, colors, creed, maturity, strength, etc. and dies out, so do the trees.

Tay

Peace Danish,

I gotta say, this was an excellent post. Thank you for sharing. I agree 100%.

Today, I cannot possibly verify any of these let alone interpret in its true essence but by reflecting upon those stories in my own past and present in the very same manner as presented and in my very own TIME, ALL that I?ve witnessed, heard and seen firsthand insofar about ALL past and present events KNOWN/WITNESSED up until today, whether humanly or heavenly, good or bad, are but absolute reflections/guidance/signs that has occurred/occurring within my own realm, in my very existence and as much as I can remember, I am certain that there lies abundance of guidance/reflections/signs to heed upon.

Peace,
Tay

unknownuser

Hello Danish,

you wrote
"My point being that unless one applies his/her intuitions, reflections of his/her own self and all that surrounds him/her, as ones own Paths and Ways of Life, life stories of all individuals, dead or alive (known); events, incidents and other natural experiences and phenomenon (joyous and/or disastrous) at all levels and phases of ones life whether past or present, are but reflections/signs whereby one learns, contemplates, takes heed and thus be guided in its most natural and certain ways. This IS the ?real guidance?.

I agree too this is an execellent post!

You have grasped the meaning of "Real Guidance" of Scripture.

Time and time again the scripture ask us to use our reason to examine the world and reflect upon God's creation. It is through knowledge, intuition, imagination, experience, reflection, contemplation and love that we come to an understaning of God that allows us to rise above our innate prejudices, fears and anxiety. This kind of approach to God allows us to grow spiritually as individuals and see the world and everything in it in a different light...

Like to hear more from you in the future.

Regards,

unknownuser

Hello Tay and Lote Tree,

Pardon me for this late response and thank you for your generous gestures.

Time and time again the scripture ask us to use our reason to examine the world and reflect upon God's creation. It is through knowledge, intuition, imagination, experience, reflection, contemplation and love that we come to an understaning of God that allows us to rise above our innate prejudices, fears and anxiety. This kind of approach to God allows us to grow spiritually as individuals and see the world and everything in it in a different light...

Absolutely and admirably thoughtful statement paraphrased in a nutshell. The intelligence and wisdom to achieve higher righteous standards in our very own roller-costarred lives are, no doubt, essential to ones? reflections, imaginations, intuition, experiences, contemplation, love, patience, etc., given the circumstances available first-hand and succumbing to doubts. One must live their own Ways of ?Righteous? Lives and Standards as given, and gradually better their surroundings domestically, socially and spiritually. I believe the word ?righteousness? is a very crude word and vastly differs from person to person in the situations there are in. Hence no two individuals are correctly alike in totality.

Hope to hear more from you as well.

Take care and GOD bless.

unknownuser

Hello Danish,

I am just wondering how you would answer Sara's original question What God obtains from Creation?

Tay and myself are of the opinion that only through Love that we can begin to answer this question.

Regards,

Idris

peace be upon all,

I heard a view I thought was pretty good a while back, it was something like creation is merely a manifestation of God's attribute as The Creator, not sure if that helps but I've stuck with that position for awhile, it makes sense to me

unknownuser

Dear LoteTree,

Good to hear from you.

I am just wondering how you would answer Sara's original question What God obtains from Creation?

That's a tough question, friend. I can only speak for myself.

Tay and myself are of the opinion that only through Love that we can begin to answer this question.

I believe love encompasses Righteousness, a key word which plays a major role in our lives.