Quraanites or whatever...

mmkhan

Salaam and hi,

Salaams and hellos.

I am new here though I'm lurking in the forums for weeks already. I found some very nice and educational stuff in here, which helped me to widen up my knowledge, alhamdulillah . I came across this forums while looking for "anti hadith" texts, since I started to doubt them not long time ago. I was sunni Muslim btw. While looking for cons and pros of hadith I found much more "evidence" contra them and it was kind of easy for me to "convert" to this new view of Islam (new for me at least).

Now, after my "conversion" or enlightenment, how I like to call it, I got impression that some of the so called Quraanites give so little credit to Prophet Muhammad saws and I was wondering why. I'm not sure about that so I would like to hear from you guys why is that some of you call him a mere human when he obviously was not (same with the rest of the messengers).

Thanks in advance for your replies and sorry for my bad English, I'm not a native speaker.

Shirin.

Welcome to the forum welcome

There is no doubt that all the Prophets and Messengers are human, but the position of Prophet and Messenger they got make them superior among us . As

492
492 O you who believe, do not raise your voices above the voice of the prophet, nor shall you speak loudly to him as you would speak loudly to each other, lest your works become nullified while you do not perceive.

493
493 Surely, those who lower their voices with the messenger of Allah, they are the ones whose hearts have been tested by Allah for righteousness. They have deserved forgiveness and a great recompense.

494
494 Surely, those who call on you from behind the lodgings, most of them do not comprehend.

345
346
347
348
349

345 And the angels said O Mary, Allah gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close.
346 And he will speak to the people from the cradle and to middle age, and is from among the upright.
347 She said My Lord, how can I have a son when no human being has been with me? He said It is thus that Allah creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it Be, and it is.
348 And He teaches him the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel.
349 And as a messenger to the Children of Israel I have come to you with a sign from your Lord; that I create for you from clay the form of a bird, then I blow into it and it becomes a bird with the permission of Allah, and I heal the blind and the lepers, and give life to the dead with the permission of Allah, and I prophesize for you what you shall eat and what to store in your homes. In that is a sign for you if you are believers.

17101
17101 And We had given Moses nine clear signs. So ask the Children of Israel, when he came to them, then Pharaoh said I think that you Moses are bewitched!

And the list goes on..... But

2136
2136 Say We believe in Allah and in what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus, and what was given to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make a distinction between any of them and to Him we submit.

2285
2285 The messenger believes in what was sent down to him from his Lord; and the believers, all who believe in Allah, and His angels, and His Books, and His messengers We do not make a distinction between any of His messengers; and they said We hear and obey, forgive us our Lord, and to you is our destiny

4152
4152 And those who believe in Allah and His messengers (all) and do not make a distinction between any of them, We will give them their recompense. And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

InshaAllah, this may help you by Allah's grace.

May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
Mohammed M. Khan

Meteora

Exactly. God hears your prayer, not your salat, which should be your daily connection with God not a 5 times a day ritual thing.

Badr

And prayer is very, very-well described in The Qur'an, bro.

Wrong ! You and the other "quranites" didnt even agreed about 2, 3 or 5 prayers.

afridi220

Wrong ! You and the other "quranites" didnt even agreed about 2, 3 or 5 prayers.

Ok 5-3-2=1 do you agree now !

unknownuser

Wrong ! You and the other "quranites" didnt even agreed about 2, 3 or 5 prayers.

Consensus does not matter. Truth does.

The only consensus required is that all collectively work to ascertain what actually is the truth, putting their ego aside and quelling the innate fear we all have when it is demonstrated that long held beliefs of ours passed down from parents are false and thus demolished.

Alen

Wrong ! You and the other "quranites" didnt even agreed about 2, 3 or 5 prayers.

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Can you locate all five of them in The Qur'an and please provide verses so that I can do research properly and not rely on human's view? Thanks and God Bless ya.

Peace.

Meteora

-Edit-

harris

As salamu alaykum,
with all due Respect.

Can you locate all five of them in The Qur'an and please provide verses so that I can do research properly and not rely on human's view? Thanks and God Bless ya.

Peace.

Salaam Alen,
Peace. Respect to you.

All 5 salat prayers are indeed mentioned in the Holy Quran.

(4103) ?Observe the ritual prayers; indeed the ritual prayer has been decreed upon believers at specific times.

The Dawn prayer
(891) By the Dawn !
(11114) And observe the ritual prayer at both extremities of the daylight (referring to the Dawn and Sunset)?
(20130) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate the praise(s) of your Lord before sunrise?
The Noon prayer
(245 ? Before the Dawn prayer, when you put away your clothes in the Midday, and after the Night prayer?
(301 All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the earth In the evening as well as when you reach Midday (when the sun starts to decline at zenith).
(177 Observe the ritual prayer from the decline of the sun (at Noon when the sun starts declining from its zenith) until the darkness of the night ?
The Afternoon prayer
(1031) By the Afternoon !
(20130) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate (O Muhammad) the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun (Dawn) and before its disappearance (Afternoon)?
(5039) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate (O Muhammad) the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before sunset (primarily Afternoon, but also Noon prayer).
The Afternoon prayer is mentioned by name
(223 Preserve strictly the ritual prayers, as well as the middle prayer, and stand up before God with humility.

The ?Middle? prayer is the Afternoon prayer, when the course of sun reaches the ?middle? between Noon and Sunset. The ?Middle? prayer is also the middle prayer of all Five daily prayers in Islam (Dawn, Noon, Afternoon, Sunset, Night).

The Sunset prayer
Sunset means visual disappearance of the sun until the apparition of stable darkness at the end of twilight.
(921) And the night (layl) as it is spreading. ( = imperfect tense action in process = there is still light in the sky).
(11114) And observe the ritual prayer at both extremities of the daylight?
(20130) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun (= Dawn prayer) and before its disappearance (Afternoon, and Noon prayers), as well as from the (first) hours of the night (= Sunset/Night prayers), and celebrate (the praise of your Lord) at the extremities (regular plural = three or more extremities) of the daylight, that you may be content.

The limit between the Afternoon and Sunset prayers is ?the (complete) disappearance of the sun?. Once the sun has completely disappeared visually in the sky at sea level, it is time for the Sunset prayer.

The Night prayer
The ?Night prayer? (Salaat al 'Ichaa) is mentioned by name in 2458.

Hope tat was of help.

http//19.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8348
http//www.chillyoislamyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/salat-just-do-it.jpg

Peace.

Bigmo

Salaam Alen,
Peace. Respect to you.

All 5 salat prayers are indeed mentioned in the Holy Quran.

(4103) ?Observe the ritual prayers; indeed the ritual prayer has been decreed upon believers at specific times.

The Dawn prayer
(891) By the Dawn !
(11114) And observe the ritual prayer at both extremities of the daylight (referring to the Dawn and Sunset)?
(20130) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate the praise(s) of your Lord before sunrise?
The Noon prayer
(245 ? Before the Dawn prayer, when you put away your clothes in the Midday, and after the Night prayer?
(301 All praise is due to Him in the heavens and the earth In the evening as well as when you reach Midday (when the sun starts to decline at zenith).
(177 Observe the ritual prayer from the decline of the sun (at Noon when the sun starts declining from its zenith) until the darkness of the night ?
The Afternoon prayer
(1031) By the Afternoon !
(20130) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate (O Muhammad) the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun (Dawn) and before its disappearance (Afternoon)?
(5039) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate (O Muhammad) the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun and before sunset (primarily Afternoon, but also Noon prayer).
The Afternoon prayer is mentioned by name
(223 Preserve strictly the ritual prayers, as well as the middle prayer, and stand up before God with humility.

The ?Middle? prayer is the Afternoon prayer, when the course of sun reaches the ?middle? between Noon and Sunset. The ?Middle? prayer is also the middle prayer of all Five daily prayers in Islam (Dawn, Noon, Afternoon, Sunset, Night).

The Sunset prayer
Sunset means visual disappearance of the sun until the apparition of stable darkness at the end of twilight.
(921) And the night (layl) as it is spreading. ( = imperfect tense action in process = there is still light in the sky).
(11114) And observe the ritual prayer at both extremities of the daylight?
(20130) So be patient regarding what they say, and celebrate the praise(s) of your Lord before the rising of the sun (= Dawn prayer) and before its disappearance (Afternoon, and Noon prayers), as well as from the (first) hours of the night (= Sunset/Night prayers), and celebrate (the praise of your Lord) at the extremities (regular plural = three or more extremities) of the daylight, that you may be content.

The limit between the Afternoon and Sunset prayers is ?the (complete) disappearance of the sun?. Once the sun has completely disappeared visually in the sky at sea level, it is time for the Sunset prayer.

The Night prayer
The ?Night prayer? (Salaat al 'Ichaa) is mentioned by name in 2458.

Hope tat was of help.

http//19.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8348
http//www.chillyoislamyo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/salat-just-do-it.jpg

Peace.

There is nothing wrong with praying five times a day. Many Quranist do. But it is not a must from a Quranic view point at least. The reason why some people here seem like they are not too into Muhammad is because

Muslims have placed divine like figure status for Muhammad and Quranist don't and so they seem like they are demoting him.
Many here realize that the Muhammad brand has been hijacked and used by traditionalist to create a religious autocracy so they suspicious of agendas.
Most people here see Muhammad the same way as Moses or Abraham or Saleh. For many Muslims, Muhammad is treated differently from the others.

You can't be a Quranist and not think highly of its messenger. The Quran speaks highly of Muhammad and Muhammad suffered and sacrificed a lot for the Quran to be in our hands. He paid in blood and money and tears and sweat.

Ask yourself how you view Lot and Shuaib and Noah. Thats how they see Muhammad. No difference. But no Quranist can look down on the Quran's messenger. After all if God entrusted Muhammad with being the deliverer of the Quran to his people, then God must have had a high opinion of him. Its not the kind of job God gives to anyone.

harris

There is nothing wrong with praying five times a day. Many Quranist do. But it is not a must from a Quranic view point at least. The reason why some people here seem like they are not too into Muhammad is because

Muslims have placed divine like figure status for Muhammad and Quranist don't and so they seem like they are demoting him.
Many here realize that the Muhammad brand has been hijacked and used by traditionalist to create a religious autocracy so they suspicious of agendas.
Most people here see Muhammad the same way as Moses or Abraham or Saleh. For many Muslims, Muhammad is treated differently from the others.

You can't be a Quranist and not think highly of its messenger. The Quran speaks highly of Muhammad and Muhammad suffered and sacrificed a lot for the Quran to be in our hands. He paid in blood and money and tears and sweat.

Ask yourself how you view Lot and Shuaib and Noah. Thats how they see Muhammad. No difference. But no Quranist can look down on the Quran's messenger. After all if God entrusted Muhammad with being the deliverer of the Quran to his people, then God must have had a high opinion of him. Its not the kind of job God gives to anyone.

Salaam bigmo,
True. Bt the truth still stands. The Quran instructs 5 prayers. If all "Quraan-aloners" could agree with this point, the community of true believers would be strengthened.

In the end, Allah knows best.
Peace.

Emil

I also wanted to ask, how you people pray? Please someone answer me, I really want to know. Thanks.

Hello Shirin and welcome!

I am sorry if you feel that our words make it sound like we think prophet Muhammed is just a dude and not at all "special". Yes, he was a "mere" human but he was an enlightened one. He was also a leader, a politician and a war strategist. Have you ever heard of the Medina charter? You should check it out. I think no "Quranites" think prophet Muhammed was NOT important. I personally feel very much respect towards him, not only for giving us the Quran but for other things as well. Just like I feel respect towards Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Buddha and Jesus and Abraham. Strange perhaps to put non-religious persons in the same department as religious ones, but that is to highlight what "type" of respect I have for prophet Muhammed.

And when you ask how we pray.....Well there is a never ending debate.....The fact is that once taking hadith out as a source there is not definite answer to how one should pray. You are to prostrate but there is not any information about how to do it exactly. Some people will say I am wrong. Some say right, and that is proof in itself (that we cannot agree) that the HOW to pray is entirely up to you as long as you can "connect" with God. We are all different and we have different ways. I for one is "a nature guy". That is where I go to connect with God. To sit down on a rock in the middle of the forest and be absolutely quiet and still is where I truly find God, or when I am out on the ocean and a school of dolphins decide to jump in front of the bow of the ship gives me such a clear line I can almost hear God speak.

And then the debate about how MANY prayers a day. Well, if you read the bible it says three, and the Quran recognises the bible, does it not?

huruf

What it entails to receive a revelation, and a long, faithful revelation like Qur'an I think it goes beyond mere enlightement. Nobody can receive a revelation without being completely open and transparent to God and least of all a revelation of the Qur'an calibre and transmit it and organize its transmisi?n as it was done wihout being a very holy person. It is not like putting an envelope in a letter box. If you can hear God or Gabriel or however or whoever brought to him aya after aya, you must be very, very conscious of God to a degree that for me it is very hard to imagine. For Muslims, for his followers, it is a very touching and tender trait that his followers were known as companionsand not disciples or mere followers. I do not need anybody to tell me or to impose on me to have love por prophet Muhammad. He did live for me, as he did live for all humanity. On the other hand, he was human, just human, but a holy human because he was transparent to God, like Mariam, that is the destiny of every human being in fact, to become transparent to God, so their existence strengthens ones faith and hope. I do think that the highest the regard for the Prophet, and for all those servants of the Highest who dedicated and dedicate their lives to humanity, the more we will profit from His message. It is justice that we correspond to their love for humanity, and it is good for us that we should feel some emotion for all their qualities. It is difficult to attain to any degree of virtue in this life, love for the most virtuous, I think, is a little help, and honouring those He has sent, we acknowledge God's mercifulness to us. His name is also As-Shakur.

On the other hand it is understandable that when love for the Prophet becomes superstitious or fanatical and blind, and even debasing for the prophet, there is an opposite reaction in order to balance attitudes, but reacting is not necesarily good for us. And revelation and prophets, I think we shuldn't forget, sends God for OUR sake. We must acknowledge that and be accordingly grateful. Those people were and are servants of humanity. They serve us, and they serve us because their love for God makes them love Humanity, which may seem difficult, but that is the measure of their closeness to God, of their holiness, which is not a demand for anything from us, but a concern for our innermost bliss and return to Him.

Salam

harris

Hello Shirin and welcome!

I am sorry if you feel that our words make it sound like we think prophet Muhammed is just a dude and not at all "special". Yes, he was a "mere" human but he was an enlightened one. He was also a leader, a politician and a war strategist. Have you ever heard of the Medina charter? You should check it out. I think no "Quranites" think prophet Muhammed was NOT important. I personally feel very much respect towards him, not only for giving us the Quran but for other things as well. Just like I feel respect towards Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Buddha and Jesus and Abraham. Strange perhaps to put non-religious persons in the same department as religious ones, but that is to highlight what "type" of respect I have for prophet Muhammed.

Salaam Emil & Shirin,
As brother emil rightly pointed out, any muslim who calls himself Quranite or whatever can never be a true muslim if he does not respect the messengers of Allah almighty. But unlike the mainstream muslims and even christians, the only difference is that we would not raise the messenger to such a height that it becomes difficult to differentiate between respect and idol worship.

And when you ask how we pray.....Well there is a never ending debate.....The fact is that once taking hadith out as a source there is not definite answer to how one should pray. You are to prostrate but there is not any information about how to do it exactly. Some people will say I am wrong. Some say right, and that is proof in itself (that we cannot agree) that the HOW to pray is entirely up to you as long as you can "connect" with God. We are all different and we have different ways. I for one is "a nature guy". That is where I go to connect with God. To sit down on a rock in the middle of the forest and be absolutely quiet and still is where I truly find God, or when I am out on the ocean and a school of dolphins decide to jump in front of the bow of the ship gives me such a clear line I can almost hear God speak.

Brother emil,
i like that you're a 'nature guy'... i'm glad you are able to find peace and connect with the Almighty in the most beautiful of surroundings. At the same time, as a brother, i would also point out the importance of 'submitting' yourself with total humility where we humans as the creation- fall on the floor, worship, thank and beg for mercy/ forgiveness to the Creator without any ego or pride. This is the real essence of 'salat' where we are able to remind ourselves everyday how utterly useless we are without the love of GOD. I'm sure a closer look at some verses of the Holy Quran will remind you about the same.

And then the debate about how MANY prayers a day. Well, if you read the bible it says three, and the Quran recognises the bible, does it not?

http//www.jesus-is-savior.com/niv.jpg

Brother, Wouldn't you say there are many many verses which are corrupted in the bible? It does contain many verses from the original 'Injeel' but the rest as we know are 'inspired' works by authors over the centuries. Yes, sadly the 5-prayers still a matter of debate. The 5-prayers are actually mentioned in the Quraan. Its high time this debate is put to rest.

Peace bro.

mmkhan

Salaaman Emil,

I am sorry if you feel that our words make it sound like we think prophet Muhammed is just a dude and not at all "special". Yes, he was a "mere" human but he was an enlightened one. He was also a leader, a politician and a war strategist. Have you ever heard of the Medina charter? You should check it out. I think no "Quranites" think prophet Muhammed was NOT important. I personally feel very much respect towards him, not only for giving us the Quran but for other things as well. Just like I feel respect towards Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Buddha and Jesus and Abraham. Strange perhaps to put non-religious persons in the same department as religious ones, but that is to highlight what "type" of respect I have for prophet Muhammed.

True, please look at post # 31

I for one is "a nature guy". That is where I go to connect with God. To sit down on a rock in the middle of the forest and be absolutely quiet and still is where I truly find God, or when I am out on the ocean and a school of dolphins decide to jump in front of the bow of the ship gives me such a clear line I can almost hear God speak.

MashaAllah, You lucky by Allah's grace.

I love to be "a nature guy" always but don't know how '(

May Allah guide us all towards the Correct Path.
Mohammed M. Khan

harris

I love to be "a nature guy" always but don't know how '(

Mohammed M. Khan

Easy bro,
step 1 dump your car
step2 cycle to the nearest park.
step3 Breath some fresh air, roll in the grass, climb the trees etc.
step 4 Go to the beach and stare at the sea instead of staring at all the 'birds' on the beach

http//www.roatanonline.com/images_wallpapers/images_wallpapers/west_bay_beach.jpg

There, you're a nature guy now! yay

Emil

Salaam Emil & Shirin,
As brother emil rightly pointed out, any muslim who calls himself Quranite or whatever can never be a true muslim if he does not respect the messengers of Allah almighty. But unlike the mainstream muslims and even christians, the only difference is that we would not raise the messenger to such a height that it becomes difficult to differentiate between respect and idol worship.

Brother emil,
i like that you're a 'nature guy'... i'm glad you are able to find peace and connect with the Almighty in the most beautiful of surroundings. At the same time, as a brother, i would also point out the importance of 'submitting' yourself with total humility where we humans as the creation- fall on the floor, worship, thank and beg for mercy/ forgiveness to the Creator without any ego or pride. This is the real essence of 'salat' where we are able to remind ourselves everyday how utterly useless we are without the love of GOD. I'm sure a closer look at some verses of the Holy Quran will remind you about the same.

http//www.jesus-is-savior.com/niv.jpg

Brother, Wouldn't you say there are many many verses which are corrupted in the bible? It does contain many verses from the original 'Injeel' but the rest as we know are 'inspired' works by authors over the centuries. Yes, sadly the 5-prayers still a matter of debate. The 5-prayers are actually mentioned in the Quraan. Its high time this debate is put to rest.

Peace bro.

Salaam Harris, how is it hanging?

Yepp, that is basically what my prayer is and I couldnt agree with you more. Thank you God for showing me your greatness. He is truly in everything. I bow to him in utter humbleness. So there, brother, we are in sync and I think most of us are if we were to talk about what prayer is all about. The bowing to God is outmost important in your heart, not in your action. I interpreted Shirin's question more towards the latter, how we physically pray. How we bow, how many times, what direction to pray to etc. etc. and that is where (in my opinion) we are more "free" to have whatever ritual we need in order to connect with God. And for me that is to remove all man made things and be surrounded by that which is created by God. By that I don't mean I never pray when I don't have access to my "mosque". No of course not. I pray everytime I look at my children, thanking God for teaching me true love.

And yes I agree with you about the bible, it is just one big hadith.....BUT.....it depends a little in what role you give the bible IF you are to use it as a source of God.. Was the Quran given to us to rectify all the man made wrongs in the bible and Torah? Or does the Quran superseed the other books making them obsolete?
I don't know Harris, it is a difficult subject.....I am however leaning towards the theory that three books are three chapters and we need to understand them all to get the one message.

mmkhan

Salaam harris,

Oh ho ho ho...! Thank you bro, very nice pic, mashaAllah.

But, to be a nature guy

step 1 dump your car

Don't have car to dump it (
Can I get scrap/body of a car to dump?

step2 cycle to the nearest park.

Got a cycle but don't have any park nearby (
No worries, btw, I don't have a key for cycle either.

step3 Breath some fresh air, roll in the grass, climb the trees etc.

Breathing full pollution in city, no grass to roll in, no place to climb the trees, and no etc... (
Is it better to sit at home to get away from pollution?

step 4 Go to the beach and stare at the sea instead of staring at all the 'birds' on the beach

Don't have any beach in my city, no sea to stare at (
Can I sit near a big tub, full of water and feel that I am at sea?
But still no use, cause water in a tub will be still, and I will get bore staring at it in a while.

rotfl

But I do have birds at home yay

but you don't want me to stare at birds '(

There, you're a nature guy now! yay

I am not a nature guy still nope brickwall

But still Allah guided me, Alhamdulillah !

May Allah guide us all towards the Truth pr
Mohammed M. Khan

mmkhan

Salaam,

And yes I agree with you about the bible, it is just one big hadith.....BUT.....it depends a little in what role you give the bible IF you are to use it as a source of God.. Was the Quran given to us to rectify all the man made wrongs in the bible and Torah? Or does the Quran superseed the other books making them obsolete?
I don't know Harris, it is a difficult subject.....I am however leaning towards the theory that three books are three chapters and we need to understand them all to get the one message.

568

568 Say O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord. And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Emil

Salaam,

568

568 Say O people of the Book, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and what was sent down to you from your Lord. And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.

May Allah guide us all towards the Truth. pr
Mohammed M. Khan

Peace Mohammed

In your opinion, is 568 directed towards the jews and christians or towards the muslims? That is where I get a little confused, because reading the whole of surah 5 I see most part of it as being directed to those who follow the torah and bible, not the Quran. The followers of the old books must also follow the Quran, but if you follow the Quran then you don't need to follow the old books ???

And the fact remains what Harris pointed out, the bible was written by men long time after Jesus died. So if we are to accept the bible, are we right to accept it as divine even though it may be corrupted?

Emil

Breathing full pollution in city, no grass to roll in, no place to climb the trees, and no etc...
Is it better to sit at home to get away from pollution?
Don't have any beach in my city, no sea to stare at

Move....you are making me depressed. Some pics from my surroundings.

http//www.danielsresor.se/Bilder/Bilder%20Mina%20bilder/Rainbow.jpg

http//www.danielsresor.se/Bilder/Bilder%20Mina%20bilder/Skymning.jpg

http//www.danielsresor.se/Bilder/Bilder%20Mina%20bilder/Sommar.jpg