Is ZANIA and ZANI about prostitution or adultery ?
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KEVIN
I totally agree with you, and indeed being legally married has a strong psychological effect on a person - thats just one huge difference between boyfriend-girlfriend relationships and married couples.
The couple I talked about being together for 25 years were not married in the papers because they are atheists... going to the church and swearing to be together rest of their days didnt made sense for them when they are atheists... but they believe in commitment thats why they live a married life just without the wedding.
But I have been brought up like you and raised with the same values. Thats why I never commited fornication but stayed virgin. Following your lust if following Satan.
Peace
I'm not buying the Atheist claim.lol. Have they ever heard of Civil Ceremonies? Don't they know that you can get married by a judge or a local Magistrate???
Peace,
Kevin
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Brother Emil
I really don't want to get in an argument with you but are reading what you're typing? Where is the Quranic proof to give support to what you are saying?I really don't care about people who live together 'like husband and wife' and aren't legally married. They don't follow my creed so why should that matter to me. I am sticking to what the Quran says. The Quran is clear that you can't 'play marriage' till it's legal. Lots of couples today do that, some have children and others don't, others break up before they do. My stance is if you love someone and you have the ability and the means to marry them then why don't you?
And of course all marriages have its problems. It marriage! But a 25 year old un-married couple doesn't match up to my parents! My parents have been married for 30 years AND COUNTING! (No I am not making it up!)Yes they had there problems but they always worked it out and they were married legally. I was brought up in a good home with good values. My parents taught me not to have sex with someone till you're legally married to them. This is what the Quran says as well. Being married has a strong psychological effect on a person. It's like a small invisible buffer, to prevent infidelity. For example, who's to say that this same 25 year old couple didn't get married only for the sake of not being 'tied together' so that when they wanted to have some 'outside fun' it would be easier for them do so? Did that possibility ever cross your mind?
In any case the ultimate guidelines for any relationship should come from God. Please enlighten me on where it says in the Quran that it's ok for people not to be married and have sex.
Peace,
Kevin.
Salaam Kevin
I totally understand what you are saying and I agree, but what I am trying to show you is the difference between A marriage and THE marriage. One marriage is when you promise to uphold what God has declared a marriage to be, this is your promise in front of God and your future spouse.
The other marriage is the legal aspect where you commit yourself to abide to the law. Living in a secular state it means that you actually get married twice, one in front of God and one in front of a judge. Sometimes the man of the ceremony and the judge is the same person, ie. a priest or imam with the right to legally marry people.
But they are two marriages. One is to make the marriage legal according to your faith, and one to make the marriage legal according to the law of the state.
To an atheist the court marriage is THE marriage, to a believer it is A marriage. The oath taken in front of God is THE marriage for a believer, to an atheist that is just nothing....I call my wife my wife because of the oath I gave in front of God, not because it says so on a piece of paper with a stamp on it.
If anyone, anyone will stand up and say that they promise to uphold the law declared by Allah, then they are married in the eyes of Allah, no paperwork can prove or reject what Allah knows. It might sound like I am saying un-married sex is ok, but I am not. What I am saying is that a legal marriage is not sufficient, it is the oath to Allah that makes you married.
So back to the question of fornication. If a couple like Whereisthetruth knows (let's say they are muslim for argument's sake) have made the promise to Allah but have failed to file for a by-law marriage, are they fornicators?
If a young couple swear to abide to the laws of Allah but are too young to get legally married ( they are 17.9 years old) will they become fornicators?
Is my oath to my wife and my God weaker than a piece of paper?Kevin I understand what you are saying and like I said to you that I agree. A wedding will certainly create the phsycological effect on a person, to make him/her understand that this is serious now.
But let me ask you; If you had to make a choice between a court marriage (legal marriage) and a marriage with God as a witness, which one would you choose? -
I'm not buying the Atheist claim.lol. Have they ever heard of Civil Ceremonies? Don't they know that you can get married by a judge or a local Magistrate???
Salaam Kevin (again)
While I was typing you posted above. This kinda enforces my point I am trying to make. By Swedish law when two people live under the same roof and have a sexual relationship they are considered married. It is called sambo in Swedish. The sambo law is almost to the point identical with the marriage law.
So you see, the law cannot be a judgement stick of what is fornication and what is not. The law differs depending on what country you live in. The law in the Quran is however same no matter where you go.
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Salaam Kevin
I totally understand what you are saying and I agree, but what I am trying to show you is the difference between A marriage and THE marriage. One marriage is when you promise to uphold what God has declared a marriage to be, this is your promise in front of God and your future spouse.
The other marriage is the legal aspect where you commit yourself to abide to the law. Living in a secular state it means that you actually get married twice, one in front of God and one in front of a judge. Sometimes the man of the ceremony and the judge is the same person, ie. a priest or imam with the right to legally marry people.
But they are two marriages. One is to make the marriage legal according to your faith, and one to make the marriage legal according to the law of the state.
To an atheist the court marriage is THE marriage, to a believer it is A marriage. The oath taken in front of God is THE marriage for a believer, to an atheist that is just nothing....I call my wife my wife because of the oath I gave in front of God, not because it says so on a piece of paper with a stamp on it.
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Brother Emil,
One last thing. I did a google search of Sambo and it appears that it is not a State marriage.http//www.algonet.se/~hogman/cohabitation.htm
"However, the term has a deeper meaning than that. It is used to describe two unmarried persons living together in a matrimonial manner, as a couple, in a joint household, without being married to each other (live-in partners). There is a term in English called Common Law husband / wife with a similar meaning."
I'm not Swedish so either I am right or this link is providing incorrect information. In any case having sex in a Sambo relationshp is legal only if the conditions in the Quran are maintained however i would advise every monotheist to be married by the State as well since it is a simple process and better in the long run for both parties.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salaam Kevin
I totally understand what you are saying and I agree, but what I am trying to show you is the difference between A marriage and THE marriage. One marriage is when you promise to uphold what God has declared a marriage to be, this is your promise in front of God and your future spouse.
The other marriage is the legal aspect where you commit yourself to abide to the law. Living in a secular state it means that you actually get married twice, one in front of God and one in front of a judge. Sometimes the man of the ceremony and the judge is the same person, ie. a priest or imam with the right to legally marry people.
But they are two marriages. One is to make the marriage legal according to your faith, and one to make the marriage legal according to the law of the state.
To an atheist the court marriage is THE marriage, to a believer it is A marriage. The oath taken in front of God is THE marriage for a believer, to an atheist that is just nothing....I call my wife my wife because of the oath I gave in front of God, not because it says so on a piece of paper with a stamp on it.
In this case we are in agreement. There seems be some sort of confusion on my end of the discussion. I was focusing on the State marriage aspect and the ritual Quran aspect and you were focusing on the just the Quranic aspect. We are both in agreement. State marriage is not compulsory in the Quran but I believe it to be a prudent practice in the long run if both couples agree to it. Sorry for the confusion.
Peace,
Kevin
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Salaam Kevin
No, dont get me wrong dear brother. I am not against state marriage at all. In fact when I got married I insisted on going to the judge as well, I was the one who thought it was very important to get "legally" married.
It is amusing dear brother that we have the same opinion but we are talking around eachother, I guess this is the downside of communicating through a computer, I am sure if we were face to face we wouldnt misunderstand eachother. I dont want you to think badly of me because I certainly think you are a very nice guy eventhough I never met you.
The question is When is it fornication? One could say it is sex without love, only for lust. But that is not entirely true because if you are married and not in love it is not classified as fornication. One could claim it is when you are not state-legally married. But that is not true either because the law is different in each state, almost impossible to decide who is a fornicator and who is not. The only logical explanation is that fornication is sex without commitment. Where do we find the commitments we are to take? The Quran of course. In it you will find the guidance, but what is more interesting is what you dont find, therefore I cannot give you any Quranic verses to back up my case because I base my deduction on what is not written.
You will not find anything about how the wedding ceremony should be. There is nothing about that a marriage must acknowledged by the authorities and a document archived somewhere. All the things you do not find is evidence enough, that marriage is not a proof to society that you are not a fornicator. The "true" marriage, the one Allah recognises, the one that spans over all cultures and continents, is the one where you stand with Allah as your witness and swear to your wife that you will uphold the Quranic law with regards to your commitments to your spouse.So eventhough WE cannot find any proof that a couple is married, they are married if they have sworn to eachother and Allah that they are married. With the consent of their families of course...
Please dont get me wrong, like I said I am all in with making a marriage legit in all senses, the more the better. What I am very uncomfortable however is to brand someone a fornicator just because he or she has not followed the man made laws even if we know that in their hearts they fulfil and uphold the law of Allah.
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Salaam Kevin
No, dont get me wrong dear brother. I am not against state marriage at all. In fact when I got married I insisted on going to the judge as well, I was the one who thought it was very important to get "legally" married.
It is amusing dear brother that we have the same opinion but we are talking around eachother, I guess this is the downside of communicating through a computer, I am sure if we were face to face we wouldnt misunderstand eachother. I dont want you to think badly of me because I certainly think you are a very nice guy eventhough I never met you.
The question is When is it fornication? One could say it is sex without love, only for lust. But that is not entirely true because if you are married and not in love it is not classified as fornication. One could claim it is when you are not state-legally married. But that is not true either because the law is different in each state, almost impossible to decide who is a fornicator and who is not. The only logical explanation is that fornication is sex without commitment. Where do we find the commitments we are to take? The Quran of course. In it you will find the guidance, but what is more interesting is what you dont find, therefore I cannot give you any Quranic verses to back up my case because I base my deduction on what is not written.
You will not find anything about how the wedding ceremony should be. There is nothing about that a marriage must acknowledged by the authorities and a document archived somewhere. All the things you do not find is evidence enough, that marriage is not a proof to society that you are not a fornicator. The "true" marriage, the one Allah recognises, the one that spans over all cultures and continents, is the one where you stand with Allah as your witness and swear to your wife that you will uphold the Quranic law with regards to your commitments to your spouse.So eventhough WE cannot find any proof that a couple is married, they are married if they have sworn to eachother and Allah that they are married. With the consent of their families of course...
Please dont get me wrong, like I said I am all in with making a marriage legit in all senses, the more the better. What I am very uncomfortable however is to brand someone a fornicator just because he or she has not followed the man made laws even if we know that in their hearts they fulfil and uphold the law of Allah.
My sentiments exactly. We are both in agreement. Legal marriage is only legal so as long as the conditions provided by the Quran are completed. Anything outside the conditions provided by the Quran will have to be considered as adultery. I should have read your posts more carefully. We were both agreeing on the same thing the only problem was that I was focusing on State marriage and Quranic marriage and you were focusing on the Quranic aspect only. confused
Peace,
Kevin
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Coolio my brother......I am also sorry if I confused you with my rambling.Seriously I am starting to feel like a loser. Many of the people I have alot of respect for are avatars on a forum. I sincerely pray that I could one day meet you guys. I am very curious about you, Tyler, Jafar, Whereisthetruth and many many more who I have found to respect through this forum.
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Peace Kevin
I think we have the same opinion, but we are just saying it differentely. I think the only difference is the marriage part.
Adultery No need to discuss, we all agree about that.
My point is, or rather my question is, when do two people marry? Is a marriage considered valid only after we go through the ritual, signing the papers and all other man-made applications to the wedding.
Or is it when you with Allah as your witness, promise to protect and support your spouse?
To me, it is quite clear that when you take an oath to Allah it supersedes all of the oaths and promises you make in the man made ritual of marriage. Just because I have the "legal" right to not follow the rules because I haven't signed any papers does not mean I can break my oath to Allah.
So like Whereisthetruth's example of the couple who had been living like husband and wife for 25 years but has not done a ritual, has not signed any papers, are they fornicators? Are they fornicators in the eyes of Allah?
Marriage is foremost between two people and their oath to God, Don't you think so Kevin?
Marriage is not only based on love alone but it by God should be! A marriage should never be about finances or status, because if those aspects are to be weighed in, a rich man could theoretically be more attractive than a poor pious man. One looking for a partner will seek sound economics instead of love. The people who are economically stable will of course show to everyone else that they are stable by buying an expensive car or wearing expensive jewellry, sending out the "right" signals to others.
I cannot really see how a "legal" marriage will somehow protect you from your partner being unfaithful to you. A "contract" will not stop an adulterer/adultress.
If you mean that it can backfire because people might end up on the streets with nothing, the man can just kick out the woman whenever he wishes and has no obligation to take care of her because they are not "legally" married...........well this man will get his punishment from Allah, I am sure of it. As for the woman it is our fault if we let her sit in the gutter. We, her neighbours and friends have the obligation to take care of her.
Very good point. I agree with you on this. peace
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Comparing me to a wahabi is not going to deter me from debating you intelligently and speaking my mind.lol. I will speak what I know to be right and truthfully. To you is you way and to me is mine. As far as I am concerned you are dead wrong and are misinterpreting the Quran. Whether you are doing it deliberately or not only God knows.
429 O you who acknowledge, do not consume your money between you unjustly, except through a trade, which is mutually agreed by you. Do not kill yourselves; God is Compassionate towards you.
430 Whoever does so out of animosity and transgression, We will cast him into a fire; and this for God is very easy.What God is saying here in the Quran is not to deliberately consume you money unjustly and kill yourselves DELIBERATELY. To deliberately kill ourselves is a sin. ?And whosoever does that (kills self) with aggression and inequity? is the same thing. It means that if you deliberately kill yourselves you are committing sin. If you do it un-deliberately you are not committing sin. Very simple and no complexities like your interpretation. Do you see how simple the Quran is?
Regarding what Jesus allegedly said in Matthew 188 I don't think he meant literally to cut off your hand or foot!! What he allegedly said was a PARABLE Bigmo not a literal teaching. rotfl He didn't meant literal hands and foot in Matt 188, what he meant was practices and habits. If something is bad for you and provides no benefit of course it is best to forgo it.
Of course it is very easy for someone to lie and say that they didn't commit adultery!!! This punishment is meant for the believers!!! If you are a believer and are truly and sincerely sorry for the sin you committed than you will speak the truth and suffer the punishment!!! If you don't you will never be forgiven till you do so! If you are a believer and you have committed adultery you must suffer the punishment for your actions so that you will be redeemed in hereafter. Being damned in the hereafter is no joke brother. Being truthful and upholding the law is a spiritually responsibility that is not to be taken lightly. If a person is a true believer he or she will speak the truth. Regarding those who don't they will be damned in the hereafter.
No. It is not meant for people to mind there own business. The reason for the extreme measures to properly accuse a person of adultery is to prevent public shame, and damaging a person's image. The potential of forever damaging a person's REPUTATION is the main reason why God says that four witnesses must be found before you do the punishment.
I am very sorry if I seem a bit argumentative. Sometimes I wish I could force people to believe what i believe in because I want to see them succeed. In there succeeding I will succeed in the hereafter. Doing good deeds doesn't go unrewarded. When you have knowledge that is as clear as day like I do, you would want to tell others about the Way as well.
Peace,
Kevin
The part where you said that punishment here will abrogate the punishment in the hereafter sounds like Sunni Islam. elektro Thats what i meant that you might have came from a very religious and sectarian Islamic background. I came from that background too. Its been now almost 7 years I have been a Koranist and still there is elements of Sunni islam I need to pluck out. Its a time thing.
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I do not think a crime is the same as a sin. God punishes sins, and crimes may be punished by people.
Therefore I do not think that the 100 lashes and the need to confess, even if nobody acuses the zani is a part in being forgiven or not forgiven by God. It is the same thing as with any other crime. How guilty de person is, God knows, people do not. But if a crime is committed, mostly there must be a penalty, which people may attempt to fix as fairly as possible, but KNOW, they will never know. They simply protect or hope to protect a certain order in society, or they should.
In this sense, I do not think that there is a need to confess and get one hundred lashes in order to repent and be forgiven. The suffering of a repentant person is not measurable by us, and since the punishment is public, the suffering may extend to other people than the zani.
I think the reasons for confessing and being lashed inn order to be forgiven given by brother KDC501 are not stated either in the Qur'an. They may be right or wrong and there could be a lot to debate about it, but they are not expounded in the Qur'an.
The four witnesses is a deterrent for false acusations and slander, but nowhere it is recomended in the Qur'an and least said, that for adultery to be forgiven by God or by the zani self there must be the punishment for the crime and a confession. On the other hand the many intimations to not pry on people lives to me points in the other direction. That of course is not to say that zina is not something downright wrong, filthy and demeaning and the punishment alotted to it is an indication of its importante and harmfulness.
Salaam
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I do not think a crime is the same as a sin. God punishes sins, and crimes may be punished by people.
Therefore I do not think that the 100 lashes and the need to confess, even if nobody acuses the zani is a part in being forgiven or not forgiven by God. It is the same thing as with any other crime. How guilty de person is, God knows, people do not. But if a crime is committed, mostly there must be a penalty, which people may attempt to fix as fairly as possible, but KNOW, they will never know. They simply protect or hope to protect a certain order in society, or they should.
In this sense, I do not think that there is a need to confess and get one hundred lashes in order to repent and be forgiven. The suffering of a repentant person is not measurable by us, and since the punishment is public, the suffering may extend to other people than the zani.
I think the reasons for confessing and being lashed inn order to be forgiven given by brother KDC501 are not stated either in the Qur'an. They may be right or wrong and there could be a lot to debate about it, but they are not expounded in the Qur'an.
The four witnesses is a deterrent for false acusations and slander, but nowhere it is recomended in the Qur'an and least said, that for adultery to be forgiven by God or by the zani self there must be the punishment for the crime and a confession. On the other hand the many intimations to not pry on people lives to me points in the other direction. That of course is not to say that zina is not something downright wrong, filthy and demeaning and the punishment alotted to it is an indication of its importante and harmfulness.
Salaam
Exactly. Which is why Zani can not mean anything but adultery of some sort. Sin is not punishable since the Koran agve people the freedom to disbelieve and ridicule God and his prophets. We do not have apostasy laws or speech cesnoring for that reason.
A crime is something you committ against the "other". Its taking away somebody else's right. Either by slandering someone or stealing from them, or killing them wrongfully or oppressing them and forcing them into exile (as Mecca did). Adultery is seen in that light. A husband technically belongs to his wife and vice versa. But because adultery is complicated maybe the Koran tried to walk delicately on that.
Crime is punishable in the courts of man, while sin is punishable only by God.
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I do not think zina is just adultery. I think it is unlawful sex. That is sex without engagement, compromise, pact, commitment or whatever. Sex is something that has social repercussions. It is not indifferent and it does harm others or can do so. It is fun (when it is) but it is not just fun.
Salaam
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I do not think zina is just adultery. I think it is unlawful sex. That is sex without engagement, compromise, pact, commitment or whatever. Sex is something that has social repercussions. It is not indifferent and it does harm others or can do so. It is fun (when it is) but it is not just fun.
Salaam
I agree with you. What I guess I meant by adultery is cheating. Its actually betrayal but we call it cheating.
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I go away for only three years, come back and find that you are still discussing the meaning of "zina"? ;D
Zina has its origin in Hebrew and it means "the act of prostitute of the altar"; that's performing sex in public.
From the quraan, my understanding is that the act has to be known to people in order to be able NOT to marry those public performers. The evidence needed is the minimum requirement for a public 4 witnesses. Any other evidence, being it less than 4 witnesses, or even pregnancy, is not permitted, because the sin here is performing sex IN PUBLIC, even between married couple, and not the result of this sex.
The only exception of this evidence is when the spouse see their partner with another person. In this case, four oaths replace the four required witnesses, and a fifth oath to be cursed by the god if they were not telling the truth.
As for sex outside marriage, it is a sin, but not for the community to punish. Punishable crimes are those against the community. -
Huruf!!
How nice to be missed by youI visited the forum from time to time. I hope this time is not just a quick visit.
I subscribed to an Egyptian forum and was hoping to participate in both, but I was quickly absorbed in discussing my "bizarre" understanding without the help of traditions, hoping to promote quran only there. It was difficult at first but was worth the effort, and I think some got the point. -
I go away for only three years, come back and find that you are still discussing the meaning of "zina"? ;D
Zina has its origin in Hebrew and it means "the act of prostitute of the altar"; that's performing sex in public.
Salams
thats interesting etymology, but how are you ascertaing that zina meant this at the time when Quran was revealed?